<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">What Name the others. Big Z scores more, turns the ball over less, blocks more shots and shoots a better FG%. He also alters alot of shots more with his height, which makes him a better post defender than Miller.</div> Check out Okur's numbers before you laught at me for bringing his name up. They are much better than Z's. Check out Marcus Camby's numbers. Even look at Chris Kamans, and keep in mind that he's only going into his fourth year. All those guys are younger, and with the exception of Camby less injury prone. If Z hurts his foot again, he's done. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">"You actually said this before: If Ray Allen had the chance to play with Shaq in his prime, he could have easily shot 50%fg and 40% from three." Which implies that playing with a good center helps with the shooting. I agree with this.</div> Why does it matter that Shaq is a center, me bringing him up doesn't imply anything except for the fact that playing with a guy like Shaq makes it easier to get open looks. Once again, this is why I brought up the stats of Jason Terry and Steve Nash. Did Jason Terry have a good center? Nope, but he still shot really well, so stop arguing that point. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you really think Kobe didn't want to shoot? As I've said many time's of course he wanted to shoot. If it was up to Kobe, he would take every shot.</div> There was a game in Sacramento (I think it was two years ago, I know Shaq was still there) when Kobe refused to shoot the ball. He did it to prove to Phil, Shaq, and the world that the Lakers can't win without him. This was after Shaq had recently returned from an injury I think. I'm not saying that this is what Kobe was doing in Phoenix, but sometimes he does have his own agenda. Probably not in a game 7 though.
I hate when 'experts' shove stats down my throat. People are saying that "statistically, Lebron makes more field goals in the last two minutes"...yeah...and?? If you're the coach and the game is on the line, would you go to Kobe or Lebron for the last shot??? If you're on NBA Live, you go to Kobe or Lebron to take that last shot? Sorry if that seems irrelevant, but do you get what I'm, trying to say? I don't care how low his shooting percentage in the last two minutes of a game is, I would take Kobe to take that shot and I'm sure so would most of the other people on this board. The only others I would take OVER Kobe (from my generation) would be Reggie Miller and MJ. Otherwise, that's the top 3 for me personally. Sorry, I don't mean to sound biased (I'm not) or unfair or whatever, but Lebron isn't even on the same level as VINCE CARTER yet in terms of clutchness. And if anyone wants to laugh at me calling Vince clutch, TRUST ME, this is coming from a Raptors fan who watched each and every single season of the Raptors prior to the 2002-2003 season, and even then Vince was clutch. Even on his ending days on the Raptors he remained clutch (anyone remember that 3 pointer over Van Exel sometime before he got traded?). My point is, LB will definetly go down as being greater then Kobe, I have no doubt about that. In fact, barring injury, I truly beliueve he will single handedly go down as THE greatest player ever, surpassing MJ, Magic and anyone (except perhaps Bill Rusell in terms of rings). However, there is no doubt in my mind that Kobe is greater (in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities) in comparison to Lebron as of the present date.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nene and Emeka are both pfs so I don't know why you mentioned them</div> Actually they're centers also. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for your question, what has Kobe done? Why is he a better leader? Let's look at how his teammates improved since being around him. -Kwame goes from being an absolute mess into a very serviceable big man -Parker comes in from the D-league and has success as a starter -Odom has a career year -Walton and Vujacic also have their best years Except for Odom (and MAYBE Kwame), I can't see any of the other Laker players starting or being 6th or 7th men on any other playoff teams. What has Kobe done? He lead the Lakers (who many thought would be swept) to 7 games against a top-4 team in the NBA despite his shoddy cast, 3 new starters who had to become accustomed to the triangle, and his 3rd coach in 2 years. Kobe leads by example, and even when Shaq was there, it was undeniable that Kobe was the leader. Do you honestly believe that Kobe wouldn't avg. 2 more assists per game if he,like Lebron, initiated the offense instead of Odom? Please. Lebron is not a better playmaker, its just that he has more of an opportunity to be a playmaker, unlike Kobe. What has Lebron done to be considered a better leader? -Marshall who had a career year last year, played a lot worse this year. -Damon Jones who STARTED on Miami last year has his worst year, and hardly plays in the playoffs. -Hughes also had a career year last year, but was injured most of this year. But even when healthy, he also played significantly worse. Lebron has a good supporting cast, in fact, guys like Damon Jones and Ira Newble would be rotation guys on most other teams. You know when you have a bigman rotation of Z, Gooden, Varejao, Marshall and Henderson, you're in pretty good shape. To compare Kobe's supporting cast to Lebron's is laughable at best. Dream, I think a better question is what has Lebron done to be considered a better leader than Kobe? </div> Well once again, you proved my point...lol......Lebron's supporting cast actually played worst than Kobe's, yet he was still able to get them to the playoffs and he was still able to "lead" his team to 7 games against Detroit.....don't think that Bron's play is the reason why his teammates played bad, it's because they aren't all that great in the first place.....I'll even argue that since Kobe has Odom, that his supporting cast is better, because Odom is an allstar caliber player imo....bottom line is both of their supporting casts are mediocre (either way you want to look at it)...Lebron isn't playing with a cast superstars, neither is Kobe....end of discussion. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you really think Kobe didn't want to shoot? As I've said many time's of course he wanted to shoot. If it was up to Kobe, he would take every shot. That's just the player he is. He didn't just randomly decide to pass the ball more to the other players. If you look at the game's we won, Kobe passed the ball more and got the others involved. In the end, the offense wasn't bad, it was the defense that killed the game for us. I believe if our D was better, and Kobe played like he did, the Suns wouldn't be in the WCF right now. Kobe does make the players around him better. If you look at how players like Smush, Walton and Lamar in the second half of the season played, you would see improvement. LeBron has better surrounding players and is in the East, hence making it easier for his team to get into a higher spot and play easier teams in the playoffs. Do you realise that the Lakers had the 10th best record overall in the NBA, while playing tougher teams more? </div> EXCUSE......if Kobe honestly thought taking 3 shots in a half of an elimination game, would really help his team, then he's a damn fool...and so is anyone who agrees with it.....and yes the offense WAS that bad, hence why Kobe should've at least attempted more shots and not "let's keep passing while no one is making anything....hey we're already down by 20, we still have time....it's okay if I only take 3 shots"........<<<<< = a damn fool. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What point of yours did I prove? However, you did help me realise that Kobe get's 4 assists without even having to orchastrate the offense, whereas LeBron gets a mere 2 more while he controls the offense. Kobe's teammates are poorer shooters aswell, so imagine if they shot as well as the Cavs AND Kobe led the offense, he would be buzzing with assists.</div> Once again, the Cavs don't have a whole arsenal of shooters....Marshall is the ONLY player who shot 3's good on a consistent basis....Snow can't shoot, Flip can't shoot, Hughes can't shoot, Gooden can't shoot, AV can't shoot, I think you get my drift.......and once again Kobe can't orchestrate an offense like Lebron....Bron is like a big 6'8 point guard who sees the floor extremely well, Kobe doesn't have the PG instincts that Bron has.....the very fact that your offense can run through a 6'8 small forward on every play, and the fact that by running that offense you can take one of the best teams (if not the best team) in the NBA to 7 games, is remarkable imo. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">but Lebron isn't even on the same level as VINCE CARTER yet in terms of clutchness. </div> *dream switches to his booker t voice* "tell me he just didn't say that?" I guess I'll try reading your post after that statement. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I hate when 'experts' shove stats down my throat. People are saying that "statistically, Lebron makes more field goals in the last two minutes"...yeah...and?? If you're the coach and the game is on the line, would you go to Kobe or Lebron for the last shot??? If you're on NBA Live, you go to Kobe or Lebron to take that last shot? </div> Yeah....he makes more FG's......his stats aren't only good down the stretch, but he's good down the stretch also (as he's proven this year in the reg. season and the playoffs).....it's not always about taking the last shot, it's about making the right play, whether that be a shot or a pass. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not saying that this is what Kobe was doing in Phoenix, but sometimes he does have his own agenda. Probably not in a game 7 though. </div> I don't think Kobe had his own agenda in game 7 either, which kind of makes me scratch my head even a little bit harder
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well once again, you proved my point...lol......Lebron's supporting cast actually played worst than Kobe's, yet he was still able to get them to the playoffs and he was still able to "lead" his team to 7 games against Detroit.....don't think that Bron's play is the reason why his teammates played bad, it's because they aren't all that great in the first place.....I'll even argue that since Kobe has Odom, that his supporting cast is better, because Odom is an allstar caliber player imo....bottom line is both of their supporting casts are mediocre (either way you want to look at it)...Lebron isn't playing with a cast superstars, neither is Kobe....end of discussion.</div> You are contradicting yourself. What do you really want to say? You want to point out that Lebron makes his teammates worse?? You were saying Lebron makes his teammates better but they are actually playing crap. Anyways, I think this discussion won't end....
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> *dream switches to his booker t voice* "tell me he just didn't say that?" I guess I'll try reading your post after that statement </div> Are you kidding me? Don't let the media hype fool you. You're comparing a player who (if I'm correct) didn't hit his first game winner till HIS THIRD SEASON and it was considered a national media field day because he did so to a player who has been consistently clutch throughout his career. I haven't seen much of Vince in NJ but from his Raptors days, there is no way you can convince me that Lebron is more clutch then him. If you had seen Carter play during his 2nd season specifically, you would know that there was a stretch of 4 straight weeks wherein every week he made the game winner (or game winning assist in one case) in order to win the game for the Raptors. Game One was a fade away over two Celtics FROM THE 3 POINT LINE in the CORNER, one was a 3 pointer against the Clippers, one was a drive and dunk against the Houston Rockets and one was a drive and dish to Charles Oakley in the dying seconds to win the game against the Cavs. And that is just game winners, not withstanding the amount of crucial plays and buckets that he had provided as well. I admit I haven't seen Lebron play on a daily basis, but everytime the dude makes a shot, its national news, so I would consider myself somewhat knowledgeable on how clutch he exactly is. I think he is getting there, but once again, stats are not everything and the media has given him so much hype as to how "clutch" he really is that it's ridiculous. Don't know what you wrote prior to this comment but I'm going to comment on this: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Once again, the Cavs don't have a whole arsenal of shooters.... </div> Yes, and Kobe has great shooters surrounding him such as Kwame Butterfingers, Lamar "Streaky" Odom, Sasha "My Shots Often Hit The ShotClock" Vujajic and a guy by the name of SMUSH. Smush or Eric Snow? (even in terms of shooting and decision making) Flip Murray (who is streaky nonetheless) or...Sasha? You get my point. You forgot to mention Damon Jones? Isn't that why you signed him? Cause he's a shooter? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Snow can't shoot </div> But he can defend and be an excellent floor leader. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Flip can't shoot </div> But he can provide an excellent spark with his shooting, although it is streaky. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Hughes can't shoot </div> But he is an above average defender who has a decent mid range game and can drive to the hole. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Gooden can't shoot </div> But he is an above average power forward who can actually catch the damn ball when passed to him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> AV can't shoot </div> But he can differantiate games with his hustle and rebounding, as well as excite the crowd and get them into the game. And to retaliate to your comments: Smush CANNOT shoot. Kwame CANNOT catch, and is extremely streaky, and loses his confidence easily. Sasha CANNOT shoot, more then any significant Cavs player that you can name. Odom is streaky, although he can shoot somewhat. The only ones from the Lakers I would trust in taking a shot would have to be Odom, Walton and Cook. The others are painful to watch. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> and once again Kobe can't orchestrate an offense like Lebron....Bron is like a big 6'8 point guard who sees the floor extremely well, Kobe doesn't have the PG instincts that Bron has.....</div> The dude's a shooting guard in a team that has a relatively selfish point guard in Smush Parker. Furthermore, being a point guard is not his job? That's the point guard's job. Lebron plays the position of a point guard on the floor while Kobe doesn't. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> the very fact that your offense can run through a 6'8 small forward on every play, and the fact that by running that offense you can take one of the best teams (if not the best team) in the NBA to 7 games, is remarkable imo. </div> Agreed on taking the Pistons to 7 games. However, taking the Lakers with its current cast to 7 games against a team that has now reached the WCF is quite remarkable as well.
Owned. The only guys who think Lebron is better than Kobe are you, Dream, Luggage boy, and a few other Cav fans. Not only do Laker fans think Kobe is better, but so do everybody else.
LeBron isn't Kobe LeBron isn't MJ LeBron isn't Magic LeBron IS LeBron, the media and some other people need to understand that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I haven't seen much of Vince in NJ but from his Raptors days, there is no way you can convince me that Lebron is more clutch then him.</div> Vince wasn't so clutch in his series against the heat....Vince = soft.....just because he hit 3 or 4 clutch shots in the reg. season doesn't make him "big shot" Vince.....come to think of it, I don't think I ever recall Vince hitting a game winning shot in the playoffs (especially this last series, when he missed a couple of big freethrows and a couple of jumpers down the stretch in game 4).....as a matter of fact Snapper Jones pointed out that Vince didn't come through in the clutch (maybe you should stop watching re-runs of him playing with the raptors).......when I think of clutch players Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc. come to mind................not Vince....sorry.....Vince = a second fiddle player, not the main guy, not the head hancho....and I think most people who watch basketball would agree with me. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And to retaliate to your comments: Smush CANNOT shoot. Kwame CANNOT catch, and is extremely streaky, and loses his confidence easily. Sasha CANNOT shoot, more then any significant Cavs player that you can name. Odom is streaky, although he can shoot somewhat. The only ones from the Lakers I would trust in taking a shot would have to be Odom, Walton and Cook. The others are painful to watch. </div> I'll take Odom, Sasha (who can be a threat behind the line at times), Walton, Cook, and George shooting the ball >>> snow, hughes, DJ, and Flip Murray...ANYDAY of the week. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You forgot to mention Damon Jones? Isn't that why you signed him? Cause he's a shooter? </div> Yes that's why "the cavs" signed him....too bad he didn't shoot the ball all that well (like most of his teammates) Like I've mentioned a thousand times before, statistically the Cavs are not that much of a better shooting team than the Lakers ( that's even if they are)....you can check the stats yourself if you don't believe me. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The dude's a shooting guard in a team that has a relatively selfish point guard in Smush Parker. Furthermore, being a point guard is not his job? That's the point guard's job. Lebron plays the position of a point guard on the floor while Kobe doesn't. </div> I know it's not his job, because the fact is that he CAN'T do it and Lebron can, that's what makes the guy so special imo.....it's now up to Coach Brown to design more plays to free up Lebron so he won't be creating his own shot and shots for his teammates all the time, but his ability to orchestrate a offense is only behind Steve Nash imo. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are contradicting yourself. What do you really want to say? You want to point out that Lebron makes his teammates worse?? You were saying Lebron makes his teammates better but they are actually playing crap. Anyways, I think this discussion won't end.... </div> His teammates make themselves worst, Lebron creates a lot of open buckets (particulary for his big men: AV, Z, and Gooden) for his teammates it's up to them to knock them down.....maybe the reason they're playing like crap is, because they're mediocre (just like Kobe's supporting cast) <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Owned. The only guys who think Lebron is better than Kobe are you, Dream, Luggage boy, and a few other Cav fans. Not only do Laker fans think Kobe is better, but so do everybody else. </div> LMAO....yet another lame comment....first off there are other people on this board who feel that Lebron is better, and there are people in the real world who agree with those sentiments also....don't let your hatred for Lebron, block out the reality of the situation. My sentiments basically come down to this, last year at this time I would've said Kobe, Tmac, Wade >>> Lebron......but dude has improved his game, clutch play, and has matured a lot this year......if you put Lebron on that Lakers team, I have a hard time believing the Suns would come back 3-1 on them.....and if you put Kobe on the cavs, I have a hard believing they take the Pistons to 7 games.....anyways I'm tired of arguing my points, because I'm sure someone will come back with "Lebron's supporting cast is outstanding and Kobe's is poop" which is far from the truth....I'll just leave it at that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">since Shaq has left Kobe has been to the playoffs once, building a 3-1 lead only to have the Suns come back and defeat him....and on top of that in a game 7, he decided to only take 3 shots in the 2nd half?!?!?!?.</div> But when Lebron misses like the last 10 shots in game 7 trying to do it all by himself not getting his teammates involved and blow the game thats not his fault?
For all those who claim that so-called "experts" all feel that Kobe is better than Lebron, I remember Tim Legler saying that he gives Lebron the edge over Kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">and I'll have to disagree with you and say that Lebron is better on the offensive side of the ball, Kobe has the better jumpshot, but that's it....they both can get to the basket, but Bron does a better job of orchestrating the offense and finding the open man....Kobe is the better defender out of the two, but his defense isn't great enough for me to take him over Lebron.</div> I agree.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> For all those who claim that so-called "experts" all feel that Kobe is better than Lebron, I remember Tim Legler saying that he gives Lebron the edge over Kobe </div> I don't understand the reasoning for your arguement. You specifically singled out Legler, but there are many other who have picked Kobe over him AT THIS STAGE of thier careers. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Vince wasn't so clutch in his series against the heat....Vince = soft.....just because he hit 3 or 4 clutch shots in the reg. season doesn't make him "big shot" Vince </div> I'll admit to not having watched the Nets/Heat series, but honestly, I don't necessairly understand this perception of him being "soft" in NJ as well. I mean, he does drive to the hole (from what I've read and seen) and he is the main scoring option for the Nets as well. Furthermore, I am pretty sure you dont drop 43 points against the Heat defense by being "soft" and taking all jumpshots. If I am wrong (as I havent exactly looked up his shot chart), you can very well prove me wrong. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> come to think of it, I don't think I ever recall Vince hitting a game winning shot in the playoffs </div> I do not recall him hitting a game winner either, but he made plenty of clutch plays during the 2001 season. I can speak on that confidently because I did watch every single one of those games. However, I admit to being corrected on the aspect that he hasn't really done many heroics in the closing seconds (that I'm aware of) during his stint in the playoffs with NJ. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> When I think of clutch players Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc. come to mind................ </div> Yes, that is the general consensus. Where is Paul Pierce? Where is 'Melo? I think it depends upon the preference of the specific individual. I believe Carter is clutch, you might not. I admit that the evidence goes against my beliefs but I really havent seen enough Lebron to believe he is this great clutch thing that everyone is making him out to be. To put him ahead of Kobe after a couple of game winners during his third season is absolutely ridiculous. Kobe has built his career upon being clutch, Lebron's just getting started so it is quite useless to compare the two at this stage of thier career. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> ince = a second fiddle player, not the main guy, not the head hancho.... </div> What does it matter who the "Head honcho" is?? This is about being clutch. Even Earl Boykins had built a repuation of being a 4th quarter guy. Derek Fisher was known for hitting big shots. Robert Horry, perhaps the most known "clutch performer", is not a "head honcho" so to speak. Sorry, when I think of clutch players, "head honchos" don't come into my mind. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'll take Odom, Sasha (who can be a threat behind the line at times), Walton, Cook, and George shooting the ball >>> snow, hughes, DJ, and Flip Murray...ANYDAY of the week. </div> Flip/Damon/Donyell can all be "a threat behind the line at times" as well, perhaps more so then the players you mentioned. I doubt you would take Sasha over Damon? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I know it's not his job, because the fact is that he CAN'T do it and Lebron can </div> The Lakers built a 3-1 lead upo nthe Suns by Kobe being an orchestrator. True, he didn't do it like Lebron, because he doesn't have the point guard job/skills speficially but to orchestrate your team the way that he did in those victories, he did one hell of a job IMO. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> His teammates make themselves worst, Lebron creates a lot of open buckets (particulary for his big men: AV, Z, and Gooden) for his teammates it's up to them to knock them down </div> Ditto for Kobe. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> "Lebron's supporting cast is outstanding and Kobe's is poop" which is far from the truth....I'll just leave it at that. </div> Haha....both of thier casts are poop, how about that? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> LeBron isn't Kobe LeBron isn't MJ LeBron isn't Magic LeBron IS LeBron, the media and some other people need to understand that. </div>
^^^If Lebron comes to mind when you think of a clutch player, then I don't know what to tell you man...you're watching the wrong league. Two clutch shots by Lebron this playoffsne was a travel, the other was more a credit to Brown's ability to make effective plays-he had a wide-open lay-up, ooo that's tough. Kobe can't do what Lebron does? Haven't you ever seen a game where Kobe breaks his role on the team? He could easily get 10 assists a game if he wanted, but that would take away Odom's role and make him unhappy. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">His teammates make themselves worst, Lebron creates a lot of open buckets (particulary for his big men: AV, Z, and Gooden) for his teammates it's up to them to knock them down.....maybe the reason they're playing like crap is, because they're mediocre (just like Kobe's supporting cast)</div> Well gee, Damon Jones hit his shots last year didn't he? Donyell Marshall hit his shots last year didn't he? Didn't he also set the record for most 3s made in a game? Didn't Gooden, Ilgauskas, and Varejao all shoot over 50%?? Flip shot 45% from the field which isn't bad at all for a guard while avg. 14 ppg. Yep, what a crappy supporting cast that Lebron has... As for the Lakers, Odom and Cook were the only players that shot decently from 3, avg. about a pct. of about 38% from 3. Walton, Sasha and George avgd. about 33% from 3, that's about 1/3, not that great. Anybody who followed the Lakers this season will tell you that Odom was inconsistant and ineffective for about 2/3 of the season, and Cook only avgd. 8 ppg. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">LMAO....yet another lame comment....first off there are other people on this board who feel that Lebron is better, and there are people in the real world who agree with those sentiments also....don't let your hatred for Lebron, block out the reality of the situation. My sentiments basically come down to this, last year at this time I would've said Kobe, Tmac, Wade >>> Lebron......but dude has improved his game, clutch play, and has matured a lot this year......if you put Lebron on that Lakers team, I have a hard time believing the Suns would come back 3-1 on them.....and if you put Kobe on the cavs, I have a hard believing they take the Pistons to 7 games.....anyways I'm tired of arguing my points, because I'm sure someone will come back with "Lebron's supporting cast is outstanding and Kobe's is poop" which is far from the truth....I'll just leave it at that. </div> Really? So far only Cavs fans have argued in Bron's favour, the rest of us, Laker and non-Laker fans all agree that Kobe is better. Tim Legler thinks Lebron is better? OK, but most other experts have admitted on several occasions that Kobe is the best player in the league right now, including Charles, Magic, Kenny, SAS, Walton, etc. You keep labelling me as a hater and all that. It's true that I dislike Lebron, but that doesn't make any of my points less valid. Besides, I also dislike Kobe, and its certainly true that you are also a Kobe-disliker (I won't stoop to the level of calling you a hater), or at the very least are biased against him. Quit calling me a hater to discredit my arguments, its annoying, repetitive, and childish. If you put Lebron on the Lakers, they don't even take the Suns to the brink, they don't win game 3 on those 2 big shots, and they probably get swept because they would have next to no perimeter defense. You put Kobe on the Cavs? They probably still lose in 7 (maybe by less though), but thats just because the Pistons are the Pistons. I'd put Kobe and Bron about equal on offense (even that is a stretch though considering the 81 and 62 point games). But Kobe's D absolutely kicks the crap out of Lebron's. Kobe is better than Lebron, and the way the Wade's been playing against Jersey and Detroit, I'd argue that he is better as well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">^^^If Lebron comes to mind when you think of a clutch player, then I don't know what to tell you man...you're watching the wrong league. Two clutch shots by Lebron this playoffsne was a travel, the other was more a credit to Brown's ability to make effective plays-he had a wide-open lay-up, ooo that's tough. Kobe can't do what Lebron does? Haven't you ever seen a game where Kobe breaks his role on the team? He could easily get 10 assists a game if he wanted, but that would take away Odom's role and make him unhappy. Well gee, Damon Jones hit his shots last year didn't he? Donyell Marshall hit his shots last year didn't he? Didn't he also set the record for most 3s made in a game? Didn't Gooden, Ilgauskas, and Varejao all shoot over 50%?? Flip shot 45% from the field which isn't bad at all for a guard while avg. 14 ppg. Yep, what a crappy supporting cast that Lebron has... As for the Lakers, Odom and Cook were the only players that shot decently from 3, avg. about a pct. of about 38% from 3. Walton, Sasha and George avgd. about 33% from 3, that's about 1/3, not that great. Anybody who followed the Lakers this season will tell you that Odom was inconsistant and ineffective for about 2/3 of the season, and Cook only avgd. 8 ppg. Really? So far only Cavs fans have argued in Bron's favour, the rest of us, Laker and non-Laker fans all agree that Kobe is better. Tim Legler thinks Lebron is better? OK, but most other experts have admitted on several occasions that Kobe is the best player in the league right now, including Charles, Magic, Kenny, SAS, Walton, etc. You keep labelling me as a hater and all that. It's true that I dislike Lebron, but that doesn't make any of my points less valid. Besides, I also dislike Kobe, and its certainly true that you are also a Kobe-disliker (I won't stoop to the level of calling you a hater), or at the very least are biased against him. Quit calling me a hater to discredit my arguments, its annoying, repetitive, and childish. If you put Lebron on the Lakers, they don't even take the Suns to the brink, they don't win game 3 on those 2 big shots, and they probably get swept because they would have next to no perimeter defense. You put Kobe on the Cavs? They probably still lose in 7 (maybe by less though), but thats just because the Pistons are the Pistons. I'd put Kobe and Bron about equal on offense (even that is a stretch though considering the 81 and 62 point games). But Kobe's D absolutely kicks the crap out of Lebron's. Kobe is better than Lebron, and the way the Wade's been playing against Jersey and Detroit, I'd argue that he is better as well.</div> Excellent post. I agree with everything you said. Some peope are just Kobe-haters and Lebron-lovers. Some people are naturallly stupid and ignorant. Kobe is better, period. People are going to say it's debatable. It is if you want to be technical. I can debate that Rafer Alston is better than MJ. All you need for something to be debatable is two people with different views. Being debatable doesn't change the fact that Kobe is better now, on both ends of the floor.
^^^^saying raefer is better than MJ is stupid...saying Lebron is better than Kobe is debatable.....and I have seen more experts than Tim Legler that said they would take Lebron >> Kobe.....Steve Kerr, Scottie Pippen, a number of nationwide radio hosts have said the same thing as well....it's not as clear cut as some of you think....and lol @ bill walton I think I've heard him say Bron is the best player before......Bill Walton's comments = irrelevant. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What does it matter who the "Head honcho" is?? This is about being clutch. Even Earl Boykins had built a repuation of being a 4th quarter guy. Derek Fisher was known for hitting big shots. Robert Horry, perhaps the most known "clutch performer", is not a "head honcho" so to speak. Sorry, when I think of clutch players, "head honchos" don't come into my mind. </div> With Lebron, Kobe, and Wade, you KNOW that they're getting the ball on the last play of the game......Carter isn't the guy who has to get the ball neccessarily....and yes Horry,Fisher, Kerr, Paxson have hit big shots, but that's usually off of passes from the "head honchos" who attract all the attention to give them the shots....Vince hasn't shown me anything recently to make me think that he's the cold blooded assasin who will take and make the last shot when needed. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">^^^If Lebron comes to mind when you think of a clutch player, then I don't know what to tell you man...you're watching the wrong league. Two clutch shots by Lebron this playoffsne was a travel, the other was more a credit to Brown's ability to make effective plays-he had a wide-open lay-up, ooo that's tough. Kobe can't do what Lebron does? Haven't you ever seen a game where Kobe breaks his role on the team? He could easily get 10 assists a game if he wanted, but that would take away Odom's role and make him unhappy. </div> If you don't think Lebron is clutch after his performances in both the regular and post season, then I don't know what to tell you...lol.....besides the two game winners, Lebron played great in the 4th quarter of game 3 against the Pistons, made a huge pass to a wide open Drew Gooden under the bucket in game 5 against the Pistons, played huge in the overtime of game 6 against the wizards,.....as a matter of fact he was playing so well the Wizards had to send out a trap at damn near midcourt....so what does Bron do?....he calmly passes the ball to hughes, who passed it to DJ for the game winner...........you must not know what clutch is if that doesn't convince you.......and that's just his play in the post season. And yes Kobe CAN'T orchestrate the offense like a PG....just like Lebron CAN'T shoot as well as Kobe, Kobe CAN'T have the offense run through him every play like Bron does.....Lebron's court vision and ability to pass the ball is superior to Kobe's...that makes him the better player to run an offense through. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well gee, Damon Jones hit his shots last year didn't he? Donyell Marshall hit his shots last year didn't he? Didn't he also set the record for most 3s made in a game? Didn't Gooden, Ilgauskas, and Varejao all shoot over 50%?? Flip shot 45% from the field which isn't bad at all for a guard while avg. 14 ppg. Yep, what a crappy supporting cast that Lebron has... </div> I didn't say they were crappy......they're mediocre at best (read my posts a little closer)....DJ had a bad a season, Z didn't play that well in the playoffs (outside a game or two), Flip was inconsistent and he could hardly ever hit an open jumper, AV plays great D and the reason why he shot a good percentage from the field was off of the penetration from Bron....it's not like he scored points off of his own creativity (same goes for Gooden).....so yeah both Kobe and Lebron have mediocre supporting cast around them....in order for both to advance in the playoffs they need upgrades (particulary at the point) <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Quit calling me a hater to discredit my arguments, its annoying, repetitive, and childish. </div> but you are......I swear we could be talking about who's the best mascot in the NBA, and you'll find a way to bring in your opinions on Lebron...lol....and other people have noticed it.......I'm not the only one.....and yes I've never been a fan of Kobe, but I do respect dudes game and believe that he's definitely a top 3 or 4 talent in the NBA, and you can even make an argument for him being best in the game......my main point (like I've been mentioning) is that him being better than Lebron, Wade, Duncan, etc. is a debatable topic.....hence why it's being debated all over the internet, t.v., and radio....no matter how much you want to think it's a "no brainer", the fact is that it isn't.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">^^^^saying raefer is better than MJ is stupid...saying Lebron is better than Kobe is debatable.....and I have seen more experts than Tim Legler that said they would take Lebron >> Kobe.....Steve Kerr, Scottie Pippen, a number of nationwide radio hosts have said the same thing as well....it's not as clear cut as some of you think....and lol @ bill walton I think I've heard him say Bron is the best player before......Bill Walton's comments = irrelevant. </div> But that's just your opinion. It's not officially stupid. It's my opinion that it is ridiculously stupid that people think 'Bron is better than Kobe. It's disrespectful to Kobe, because he simply isn't better. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">With Lebron, Kobe, and Wade, you KNOW that they're getting the ball on the last play of the game......Carter isn't the guy who has to get the ball neccessarily....and yes Horry,Fisher, Kerr, Paxson have hit big shots, but that's usually off of passes from the "head honchos" who attract all the attention to give them the shots....Vince hasn't shown me anything recently to make me think that he's the cold blooded assasin who will take and make the last shot when needed..</div> So because they give the ball up it makes them clutch, but when guys like Kerr and Horry hit big shots it's because they've been given the ball by head honchos? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you don't think Lebron is clutch after his performances in both the regular and post season, then I don't know what to tell you...lol.....besides the two game winners, Lebron played great in the 4th quarter of game 3 against the Pistons, made a huge pass to a wide open Drew Gooden under the bucket in game 5 against the Pistons, played huge in the overtime of game 6 against the wizards,.....as a matter of fact he was playing so well the Wizards had to send out a trap at damn near midcourt....so what does Bron do?....he calmly passes the ball to hughes, who passed it to DJ for the game winner...........you must not know what clutch is if that doesn't convince you.......and that's just his play in the post season.</div> I don't think Lebron is clutch. You can't call a player clutch after ONE season of playing good down the stretch. It took him three seasons to make a game-winner. What does that tell you? And WHAT? Please don't be using that ish as a reason for being clutch. What do you think any other player would have done if they were being trapped at half-court?? Shoot the ball? Please. Any player with a brain will pass the ball in that situation. It does not make him clutch. Every little thing 'Bron does is hailed as if only he could do it. And don't try to call me a hater because I love Lebron and I hate Kobe. Thats honesty. I just talk it like it is. Kobe's better. For now. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And yes Kobe CAN'T orchestrate the offense like a PG....just like Lebron CAN'T shoot as well as Kobe, Kobe CAN'T have the offense run through him every play like Bron does.....Lebron's court vision and ability to pass the ball is superior to Kobe's...that makes him the better player to run an offense through..</div> I agree that Kobe hasn't got as good passing abilities as Lebron. We'll just say that that evens out the passing (for Lebron) and shooting (for Kobe). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't say they were crappy......they're mediocre at best (read my posts a little closer)....DJ had a bad a season, Z didn't play that well in the playoffs (outside a game or two), Flip was inconsistent and he could hardly ever hit an open jumper, AV plays great D and the reason why he shot a good percentage from the field was off of the penetration from Bron....it's not like he scored points off of his own creativity (same goes for Gooden).....so yeah both Kobe and Lebron have mediocre supporting cast around them....in order for both to advance in the playoffs they need upgrades (particulary at the point).</div> Yes because Kwame and Mihm and Cooke are all excelent at creating shots <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">but you are......I swear we could be talking about who's the best mascot in the NBA, and you'll find a way to bring in your opinions on Lebron...lol....and other people have noticed it.......I'm not the only one.....and yes I've never been a fan of Kobe, but I do respect dudes game and believe that he's definitely a top 3 or 4 talent in the NBA, and you can even make an argument for him being best in the game......my main point (like I've been mentioning) is that him being better than Lebron, Wade, Duncan, etc. is a debatable topic.....hence why it's being debated all over the internet, t.v., and radio....no matter how much you want to think it's a "no brainer", the fact is that it isn't.</div> I know you're not calling me a hater you're saying that to someone else. But to me and all other smart people, it is a no-brainer. If both Kobe and Lebron were 20 years old, who would you pick? I know. Kobe. If you would choose Lebron then there is something wrong with you. So are you just trying to make the point that it's debatable, or are you saying Lebron is better?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But that's just your opinion. It's not officially stupid. It's my opinion that it is ridiculously stupid that people think 'Bron is better than Kobe. It's disrespectful to Kobe, because he simply isn't better. </div> Well I don't know the last I turned on the t.v. and heard where they were discussing Raefer Alston vs. M.J. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So because they give the ball up it makes them clutch, but when guys like Kerr and Horry hit big shots it's because they've been given the ball by head honchos? </div> Yes.....there were numerous times where M.J. didn't take the last shot, instead he gave the ball up....the reason why they double is because they know if they don't there's a good possibility that that player will make the last shot. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes because Kwame and Mihm and Cooke are all excelent at creating shots</div> I never said they were. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I know you're not calling me a hater you're saying that to someone else. But to me and all other smart people, it is a no-brainer. If both Kobe and Lebron were 20 years old, who would you pick? I know. Kobe. If you would choose Lebron then there is something wrong with you. So are you just trying to make the point that it's debatable, or are you saying Lebron is better?</div> LOL....well I guess after all my years of watching basketball that I'm "stupid"....I guess durvasa (a guy with great knowledge of the game also) is stupid for saying Lebron > Kobe....yes I think Lebrons better, and yes it's debatable.
I've read though the thread and still I see no evidence that LeBron will not surpass both Kobe and Jordan. Someone please provide us with some evidence that this will not happen, otherwise just sit back, relax, and watch as this 21 year old phenom takes over the NBA.
