I've read though the thread and still I see no evidence that LeBron will not surpass both Kobe and Jordan. Someone please provide us with some evidence that this will not happen, otherwise just sit back, relax, and watch as this 21 year old phenom takes over the NBA.
And you give us NO EVIDENCE either that he will surpass. What's your evidence? Cavs going to game 7 against the Pistons? That's nonsense.
Even if the Cavs would have grabbed one of those rebounds in Game 6, that wouldn't have assured them a win. And if Lebron is such a great rebounder, he should have muscled his way in and grabbed one. In my opinion the Cavs should have never made it that far in the first place. The refs gift wrapped the game in which Lebron traveled to hit the game winner. And it wasnt even 3 steps, he took 4! Thats just ridiculous. And the only reason they went so far against the Pistons, was cause the Pistons just didnt show up. It had nothin to do with the Cavs, and certainly not with Lebron. He was ok at best against the Pistons. The Lakers on the other hand, only needed Lamar to grab the rebound when Nash missed the 3 in Game 6, and the series is over. I could go on and on about both the Cavs and Lakers playoff runs, but I wont. Lebron is no Kobe and he isn't MJ either.
Personally, I think adding a LeBron James to a team will probably improve the offense more than adding a Kobe Bryant would. Here's a more detailed look at their ability to generate points for their team, taken from mysynergysports (thanks Shape!). Free registration during the playoffs if you want to check it out. Great stuff for evaluating scoring tendencies and effectiveness. If the price isn't too steep, I think I might sign up for it for next season. I'm going to present some of the information they provide about the players. More details are available on the site. For every type of play, they show points per possession (PPP) the player was able to generate, as well as their percentile rank relative to the league (NBA %). So, this takes into account both shooting and turnovers committed. Also, for the play type marked "doubled', that's specifically looking at plays in which the player was double-teamed and he passed out to a teammate for a shot. <font size=""3"">Points produced by play type (top 7 play types shown for player)</font> LeBron <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">Play Type% of offenseEffectiveness</font><br/>overall-PPP 1.01, NBA% 82<br/>One on One/ISO 24.9%PPP 0.9, NBA% 86<br/>PnR Ball Handler, 21.2%PPP 0.98, NBA% 79<br/>single cov.<br/>Transition 16.1%PPP 1.36, NBA% 95<br/>PnR Ball Handler, 14.2%PPP 1.03, NBA% 67<br/>doubled(makes pass)<br/>Post up, single cov.6.2%PPP 0.98, NBA% 74<br/>Shots off screens5.5%PPP 0.82 NBA% 41<br/>Spot up4.7%PPP 1.01, NBA% 63<br/></div> Kobe <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">Play Type% of offenseEffectiveness</font><br/>overall-PPP 1.02, NBA% 84<br/>One on One/ISO 36.6%PPP 0.93, NBA% 91<br/>Transition 14.3%PPP 1.21, NBA% 71<br/>PnR Ball Handler, 14.1%PPP 0.98, NBA% 80<br/>single cov.<br/>Post up, single cov.7.7%PPP 0.94, NBA% 65<br/>Spot up7.3%PPP 1.02, NBA% 65<br/>PnR Ball Handler,5.0%PPP 0.97, NBA% 54<br/>doubled (makes pass)<br/>Shots off screens4.4%PPP 1.14, NBA% 84<br/></div> <font size=""3"">Scoring by Shot Type</font> LeBron <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">Shot TypePoss/gameEffectiveness</font><br/>Finishing at basket11.3PPP 1.35, NBA% 92<br/>(not post up) <br/>Jump Shooter9.9PPP 0.9, NBA% 49<br/>Post up2.6PPP 0.77, NBA% 60<br/></div> Kobe <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">Shot TypePoss/gameEffectiveness</font><br/>Jump Shooter13.5PPP 0.99, NBA% 73<br/>Finishing at basket8.1PPP 1.33, NBA% 87<br/>(not post up) <br/>Post up3.4PPP 0.76, NBA% 57<br/></div> <font size=""3"">Jump Shooting Stats</font> LeBron <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>Catch and Shoot<br/><font color=""Navy"">DefenseEffectiveness</font><br/>unguardedPPP 1.29, NBA% 79<br/>guardedPPP 0.87, NBA% 49<br/>overallPPP 1.01, NBA% 59<br/><br/>Jumper Shooter off Dribble: PPP 0.87, NBA% 66<br/><br/>Overall jump shooting<br/><font color=""Navy"">RangeEffectiveness</font><br/>short (< 17)PPP 0.85, NBA% 52<br/>medium (17 to PPP 0.77, NBA% 36<br/>3-pt line)<br/>long (3-pt)PPP 1.0, NBA% 52<br/></div> Kobe <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>Catch and Shoot<br/><font color=""Navy"">DefenseEffectiveness</font><br/>unguardedPPP 1.37, NBA% 88<br/>guardedPPP 1.14, NBA% 91<br/>overallPPP 1.18, NBA% 88<br/><br/>Jumper Shooter off Dribble: PPP 0.9, NBA% 73<br/><br/>Overall jump shooting<br/><font color=""Navy"">RangeEffectiveness</font><br/>short (< 17)PPP 1.02, NBA% 92<br/>medium (17 to PPP 0.89, NBA% 73<br/>3-pt line)<br/>long (3-pt)PPP 1.0, NBA% 62<br/></div> <font size=""3"">Drives in Half-court Offense</font> LeBron <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">DirectionFrequencyEffectiveness</font><br/>Right34.8%PPP 1.01, NBA% 82<br/>Left65.2%PPP 0.94, NBA% 69<br/><br/>Going Right:<br/><font color=""Navy"">Shot typeFrequencyEffectiveness</font><br/>Pull up Jumper35.7%PPP 0.76, NBA% 51<br/>Drives to the64.3%PPP 1.32, NBA% 86<br/>basket<br/><br/>Going Left:<br/><font color=""Navy"">Shot typeFrequencyEffectiveness</font><br/>Pull up jumper57.9%PPP 0.89, NBA% 69<br/>Drives to the42.1%PPP 1.11, NBA% 63<br/>basket<br/></div> Kobe <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">DirectionFrequencyEffectiveness</font><br/>Right51.0%PPP 0.98, NBA% 72<br/>Left49.0%PPP 0.94, NBA% 69<br/><br/>Going Right:<br/><font color=""Navy"">Shot typeFrequencyEffectiveness</font><br/>Pull up Jumper58.2%PPP 0.85, NBA% 62<br/>Drives to the41.8%PPP 1.31, NBA% 86<br/>basket<br/><br/>Going Left:<br/><font color=""Navy"">Shot typeFrequencyEffectiveness</font><br/>Pull up jumper63.24%PPP 0.88, NBA% 67<br/>Drives to the36.8%PPP 1.22, NBA% 80<br/>basket<br/></div> Like I said, many more details available at the site. What these numbers show is the offensive efficiency and scoring tendencies of LeBron and Kobe. Gives an indication of how good they are at generating points from the possessions they're a part of (either by scoring themselves, or passing out of a double team in pick and roll situations). It doesn't include pass outs for shots in non-PnR situations. Or passes that lead to the assist, which is also important (who would be more effective at this, LeBron or Kobe?). Offensive rebounding obviously isn't included either (both Kobe and LeBron are about equal in this area anyways). Another important aspect not captured by the above numbers is the ability of the player to "carry the team" by using a lot of possessions while also being effective. It appears that Kobe and LeBron are almost the same in terms of effectiveness, but which player dominates their team's offense more? And when you're a very efficient offensive player (by the above numbers, both are above the 80th percentile), at what point is a player dominating the offense too much?
Kobe is and will always be better than Lebron Kobe > Lebron K > L ascending order of course They will be both better than MJ K > L > M jk...i think Lebron is now near Kobe's level and may have great chance surpassing him in the future.
Listen its hard to argue who's better or not. I'll give the upper edge to kobe in terms of pure skills right now. The reason being he has way more experience than lebron. Lebron will get there very soon, if he improves his jumpshot and his D. At the same time i believe lebron would help out most team more so than kobe would.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brasco:</div><div class="quote_post">Listen its hard to argue who's better or not. I'll give the upper edge to kobe in terms of pure skills right now. The reason being he has way more experience than lebron. Lebron will get there very soon, if he improves his jumpshot and his D. At the same time i believe lebron would help out most team more so than kobe would.</div> But what matters, ultimately, isn't who has more pure skills, but who's better at helping a team win. To me, that's what it boils down to when you ask which player is better. It's not what you have, but what you do with what you have that counts. So, who does more? There's no clear-cut answer to that question (at this point), so good arguments can probably be made both ways. Personally, I'd prefer LeBron to Kobe, even right now.
Here's the difference between Lebron fans and Kobe fans.... The majority of the Lebron backers(minus luggage) in this argument actually use stats in the argument. The majority of Kobe backers say that "Kobe is better, period." "All smart people say that Kobe is better, everyone else is dumb" "If both were 20, who would you choose? Kobe, if you don't then there's something wrong with you". Why do you all have to resort to name calling? ---------------------------------- <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe can't do what Lebron does? Haven't you ever seen a game where Kobe breaks his role on the team? He could easily get 10 assists a game if he wanted, but that would take away Odom's role and make him unhappy.</div> Thanks for explaining that. He's such a great team player making sure everyone is happy. ------------------ The whole clutch debate <div class="quote_poster">Quoting JFor3:</div><div class="quote_post"> I don't think Lebron is clutch. You can't call a player clutch after ONE season of playing good down the stretch. It took him three seasons to make a game-winner. What does that tell you? And WHAT? Please don't be using that ish as a reason for being clutch. What do you think any other player would have done if they were being trapped at half-court?? Shoot the ball? Please. Any player with a brain will pass the ball in that situation. It does not make him clutch. Every little thing 'Bron does is hailed as if only he could do it. And don't try to call me a hater because I love Lebron and I hate Kobe. Thats honesty. I just talk it like it is. Kobe's better. For now.</div> Just a couple of comments about that post.... When did Kobe hit his first game winner in the playoffs? Was it in his first 3 years? When was the last time Kobe passed up the winning shot for a better shot for his teammate? Game 5 is a great example, I believe it was Kwame who cut to the basket and would have had an easy layup, but Kobe took the shot. (If I was a Laker fan, I would want Kobe shooting it to and I can't criticize him for taking that last shot, but honestly I respect the person who finds the open man and trust their teammates more) YES! Every little thing Bron does is hailed. It's the same, but to a lesser extent with Kobe. I am glad both Kobe and Lebron are eliminated, just because we can actually hear about basketball rather than what cereal Lebron ate for breakfast or how amazing Lebron/Kobe is. ----------------- <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you put Lebron on the Lakers, they don't even take the Suns to the brink, they don't win game 3 on those 2 big shots, and they probably get swept because they would have next to no perimeter defense. You put Kobe on the Cavs? They probably still lose in 7 (maybe by less though), but thats just because the Pistons are the Pistons.</div> There is absolutely no way to determine that. So it's irrevelant to bring to the discussion. Why do people continue to say that they the Cavs are way better in supporting cast than the Lakers? Both are mediocre at best. I would give the advantage to the Cavs in the regular season, but in the playoffs, the Lakers supporting cast did better. I would say that the Cavs supporting cast is more talented, but the Lakers have the best player on either supporting cast(Odom). <div class="quote_poster">Quoting reeling:</div><div class="quote_post"> But when Lebron misses like the last 10 shots in game 7 trying to do it all by himself not getting his teammates involved and blow the game thats not his fault?</div> When the team is shooting 9-41 from the floor you have to take shots, that's when you try to take over. Kobe's supporting cast sucked in Game 7, he's gotta realize that and take the shots. I complain about Kobe after Game 6 for taking so many shots, because Kwame was 8-9 from the floor(89%) and Odom was 8-12 from the floor(75%-2 of the shots were when the game was out of reach and it was just long 3's in OT) against a team with a much much much smaller/weaker frontcourt. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Dream:</div><div class="quote_post">If you don't think Lebron is clutch after his performances in both the regular and post season, then I don't know what to tell you...lol.....besides the two game winners, Lebron played great in the 4th quarter of game 3 against the Pistons, made a huge pass to a wide open Drew Gooden under the bucket in game 5 against the Pistons, played huge in the overtime of game 6 against the wizards,.....as a matter of fact he was playing so well the Wizards had to send out a trap at damn near midcourt....so what does Bron do?....he calmly passes the ball to hughes, who passed it to DJ for the game winner...........you must not know what clutch is if that doesn't convince you.......and that's just his play in the post season.</div> I don't think Lebron deserves to be up in the league of Kobe as being clutch. Kobe has done it for a much longer period of time and I would mention him among some of the better clutch players. Lebron is very unselfish down the stretch and I love that aspect of his game. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting KobeTheLegend:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if the Cavs would have grabbed one of those rebounds in Game 6, that wouldn't have assured them a win. And if Lebron is such a great rebounder, he should have muscled his way in and grabbed one. In my opinion the Cavs should have never made it that far in the first place. The refs gift wrapped the game in which Lebron traveled to hit the game winner. And it wasnt even 3 steps, he took 4! Thats just ridiculous. And the only reason they went so far against the Pistons, was cause the Pistons just didnt show up. It had nothin to do with the Cavs, and certainly not with Lebron. He was ok at best against the Pistons. The Lakers on the other hand, only needed Lamar to grab the rebound when Nash missed the 3 in Game 6, and the series is over. I could go on and on about both the Cavs and Lakers playoff runs, but I wont. Lebron is no Kobe and he isn't MJ either.</div> It's a joke how many calls both players get. I definetely understand the star power, but oh my gosh, Lebron pushed Rip down while shooting a layup(basically stiff armed him) and Rip gets a foul called. The same stuff happens to Kobe. No one is allowed to hand check Kobe, but he hand checks everyone that he guards. I wish they would just call it somewhat fairer. I will say that the refs have had a big part of every series going 7 games. I mean Kobe got so many more calls than Nash in that series and Nash has 2 more MVP's than Kobe. Pistons are the champs, they should get the benefit of the doubt for more calls. ------------------------- In conclusion, I'm glad both of these guys are out of the playoffs so that the analysts actually talk about basketball again and not just about Kobe/Lebron. The 2 best MVP candidates in my eyes are still left(Nash/Dirk) and still playing. Anyway this whole thread is completely pointless, both players are great, why does it really matter who is better? They both play in different conferences, they aren't rivals, I just don't understand why everyone continues to complain about who is better. It's irrevelant, just watch in amazement as these 2 dominate the game that we all love so effortlessly. This is irrevelant, because Dwight Howard will be the best of all time and the face of the NBA in 2 years.
Star players to get alot of calls, it's true. But the call the didn't get called, the game winning lay-up that Lebron traveled on, it was obvious. You cant even question if he traveled or not. Switch over to Game 1 of the Lakers/Suns series, Kobe clearly got hit across his face by Tim Thomas on the second to last play which would have put the Lakers with in 2 points. The refs have to get better. Stop calling the weak bumping calls along the perimeter, and start calling the obvious ones.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Here's the difference between Lebron fans and Kobe fans.... The majority of the Lebron backers(minus luggage) in this argument actually use stats in the argument.</div> I don't feel the need to post stats because the argument is blatently obvious that Lebron isn't MJ or Kobe yet, but he will surpass them. The title of this thread is "LeBron ain't MJ or Kobe" The thread was obviously created to rival up Bron fans, as the poster knows that LeBron is only 21 years old and is doing more at his age than MJ or Kobe could ever dream of. That's the bottom line and is what discerns fact from opinion.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I've read though the thread and still I see no evidence that LeBron will not surpass both Kobe and Jordan</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And you give us NO EVIDENCE either that he will surpass. </div> Lebron is already better than Kobe, its more than obvious. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">.. And the only reason they went so far against the Pistons, was cause the Pistons just didnt show up.</div> Well they sure showed up against the Lakers in 04', even when LA had veteran players such as: <u>Kobe</u>, Shaq, Fox, Grant, Malone, Payton, coached by 9 time NBA champ PJackson I think the series ended 4-1 in favor of the Pistons, that one game being delivered by a fantastic last second shot by Kobe Bryant to send to overtime. Alright-- Kobe's <u>individual</u> game is much more mature superfically; and when you talk about the individual practiced skills of a player , ie: shooting skill, defensive checking skills, dribbling skill-- Kobe obviously appears more skillful. Yet the game is not about skills, the game is measured in ability, impact, and winning. For instance,-- To say Kobe is faster than Lebron, a better ball handler a better shooter a more skilled scorer---- yet he scores less efficiently than Lebron, has to make you wonder what these people view as 'better'? If you're a more skilled and practice dribbler, yet you can't benefit any way from that skill as far as : getting to desirable positions on the court, creating for teammates, scoring for yourself easier--- then you would have to belive that eventhough you may be the better <font color=""Sienna"">dribbler</font> you are probably not the better ballhandler. Skill can be subjective, whereas ability and results are beyond question. Lebron has more ability than Kobe Bryant
^^^^ Excellent post which is true, but don't worry...some Kobe wanna be fan is going to come in here and post how you are wrong because they cannot distinguish fact from fiction. One thing my coach always told me was that you can't educate the willingly ignorant. I've pretty much given up on trying to help people see the light.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Lostmyluggage:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't feel the need to post stats because the argument is blatently obvious that Lebron isn't MJ or Kobe yet, but he will surpass them. The title of this thread is "LeBron ain't MJ or Kobe" The thread was obviously created to rival up Bron fans, as the poster knows that LeBron is only 21 years old and is doing more at his age than MJ or Kobe could ever dream of. That's the bottom line and is what discerns fact from opinion.</div> Stats aren't everything and at sometimes be deceiving. Lebron is doing more at this age than Kobe or MJ, but Kobe was never given the chance. Had Kobe gone to a horrible team his rookie year as Lebron did, his carreer numbers would be much better. Instead, he went to a team with 3 other all-stars and didnt get any playing time, although he deserved it. And to say Lebron will be better and surpass Kobe and Mj both is ridiculous.
Look at the way they score. Lebron scores on fast breaks and by dunking, kobe scores by shooting difficult mid range shots, something lebron couldnt do if his life depended on it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">Look at the way they score. Lebron scores on fast breaks and by dunking, kobe scores by shooting difficult mid range shots, something lebron couldnt do if his life depended on it.</div> LeBron CAN shoot the mid-range jumpshot. As good Kobe? No, but he has improved a lot since his rookie season.
No, Lebron is not MJ or Kobe, he is him self. he play his own game he dont try to be like either one of them he dont need to be, but one day you going to see his name beside them two.
Kobe the Legend <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Had Kobe gone to a horrible team his rookie year as Lebron did, his carreer numbers would be much better</div> Now wait a min ... Top Lake <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you still say L.A. have better supporting cast, up to you all haters</div> Laker Fan <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron's supporting cast > Kobe's... Players like Donyell Marshall are overlooked. The contributions that they make to the team are much greater than what the Lakers supporting cast make.</div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron CAN shoot the mid-range jumpshot. As good Kobe? No, but he has improved a lot since his rookie season.</div> Lebron CAN shoot mid range jumpers but at an extremely inconsist way. He'll knock down like 2-3 in a row, or he'll miss like 4-5 in a row. Kobe has the ability to make any shot he puts up t any time, no matter the defense, Lebron just cant do that yet
