<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">Lebron CAN shoot mid range jumpers but at an extremely inconsist way. He'll knock down like 2-3 in a row, or he'll miss like 4-5 in a row. Kobe has the ability to make any shot he puts up t any time, no matter the defense, Lebron just cant do that yet</div> Difficulty of shots doesn't make a difference. All that matters is effectiveness. For example: If all Kobe did was take fadeaway 35 footers and he hit 30% of them, that would be quite impressive. No way LeBron could do that. But would that make him a greater offensive player?
Does anyone find it weird that the kid who made this thread has the user name ?LBJ2006MVP? I don?t know if he was joking or serious when he made this thread.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting KobeTheLegend:</div><div class="quote_post">Stats aren't everything and at sometimes be deceiving. Lebron is doing more at this age than Kobe or MJ, but Kobe was never given the chance. Had Kobe gone to a horrible team his rookie year as Lebron did, his carreer numbers would be much better. Instead, he went to a team with 3 other all-stars and didnt get any playing time, although he deserved it. And to say Lebron will be better and surpass Kobe and Mj both is ridiculous.</div> Basketball-reference.com shows Offensive Rating for players, which amounts to points the player generated per 100 offensive possessions he used (based on the theory outlined in Basketball on Paper). Anyways, it essentially shows how efficient the player was overall on the offensive end (doesn't depend on "chances" a player had). Here's a comparison of their offensive ratings each of their first 3 seasons: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">KobeLeBron</font><br/>Year 110199<br/>Year 2110114<br/>Year 3106115<br/></div> Further, since league average for offensive efficiency varied year to year, it's useful to compare their "normalized" ratings (I'll set league average to 105 here): <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">KobeLeBron</font><br/>Year 199101<br/>Year 2110113<br/>Year 3109114<br/></div> So, not only did LeBron have a bigger role in his team's offense his first three years, he was also more efficient.
good post durvasa, not to argue for or against it, but maybe LBJ's improved efficiency was due to the fact he had more playing time and time to improve. Just some food for thought.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting yudalicious:</div><div class="quote_post">good post durvasa, not to argue for or against it, but maybe LBJ's improved efficiency was due to the fact he had more playing time and time to improve. Just some food for thought.</div> Could very well be. Maybe coming out of high school they were about equal skill-wise (though considering the monumental hype LeBron received compared to Kobe, I'm not so sure). But there's no question that LeBron improved more drastically his first three years than Kobe, and as you say perhaps playing time was a factor.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Difficulty of shots doesn't make a difference. All that matters is effectiveness. For example: If all Kobe did was take fadeaway 35 footers and he hit 30% of them, that would be quite impressive. No way LeBron could do that. But would that make him a greater offensive player?</div> I'll i was saying is that lebron isnt good enough to take jumpers and score a lot of points with them. Kobe imo has fallen in too much love with his jumper meaning he could drive a lot more but he prefers to shoot J's. Lebron gets sooooo many of his buckets on fast breaks and broken plays, meaning that his team mates give him the ball in a perfect position to score. Kobe's team mates give him the ball on teh 3-point line with like 3 seconds on ther shot clock sooooo much it is just annoying. Lamar is the only guy even capable of hitting a cutter or someone on a fast break. Lebron's teammates give him a lot more scores than kobe's. Durvasa could you get me a stat that shows percentage of basket's scored by lebron and kobe from an assist? because i bet it would support my point
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">Durvasa could you get me a stat that shows percentage of basket's scored by lebron and kobe from an assist? because i bet it would support my point</div> Nope. <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>Shot TypeLeBron (Ast'd)Kobe (Ast'd)<br/>Jump Shots28%47%<br/>Close(non-dunk)27%27%<br/>Dunks64%64%<br/>Inside(total)36%35%<br/>Overall32%44%<br/></div> Those are 82games numbers. Here's an interesting graph, courtesy of MySynergySports: It breaks down the offense plays used by each player to generate points for their team -- typically by scoring, sometimes by passing (PnR Ball Handler or Post Double Team). So for example, both players get relatively few shots off cuts to the basket (for LeBron, it's 2.26% of his offense, for Kobe it's 2.23%). LeBron get's more transition opportunities of course (16.1% to 14.3%), but it's actually not a huge difference (contrary to what I expected). As the 82games.com numbers suggest, Kobe's takes more jumpers without dribbling the ball (hence, the higher % assisted). For instance, in ISO situations LeBron takes a jumper without dribbling 34% of the time, while Kobe does it 45% of the time. And in spot up situations, LeBron will take the jumper without dribbling 61% of the time, while Kobe will do it 78% of the time. What this means is LeBron gets "easier baskets" not so much because his teammates do a better job getting him the ball, but rather he's less willing to settle for jumpers on the perimeter compared to Kobe. He doesn't ISO or get spot ups as frequently as Kobe, for one, and when he does get in those situations he doesn't take the immediate jumper as often.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">Whoops does kobe taking more shots or being a better shooter affect that at all. Or fast breaks?</div> Kobe takes more catch and shoot jumpers. The Laker offense gets him more catch and shoot opportunities, for one (they run more ISOs for him, and he gets more spot ups), and two he takes the jumper without dribbling more frequently than LeBron does in those situations. That's what it boils down to. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">cool graph, suprising! also could you hook me up with a stat about % of dunks/easy layups?</div> http://www.82games.com/0506/05CLE10A.HTM http://www.82games.com/0506/05LAL7A.HTM First, I'll dispute the label "easy layups". It takes skills to get all those layups. As the links above show, 6% of LeBRon field goals were dunks, while 3% of Kobe's were dunks. Both are relatively low, considering their athleticism. By comparison, 12% of Wade's field goals were dunks! I'm not sure how many were really "easy layups", but 29% of LeBron's field goals were "close" shots that aren't dunks, compared to only 18% for Kobe. Again, I'll say this doesn't mean LeBron is an inferior offensive player just because he's getting shots closer to the basket. There's obviously a skill involved in driving to the basket and being able to finish inside. On all inside shots (dunks, close shots, tip-ins) LeBron shot 69% while Kobe shot 60%. And, again, percent assisted was basically the same for both. LeBron, flat out, is a better finisher, and he's better at getting to the basket. And Kobe's a better jump shooter.
cool stuff, what is net points? Also, all i meant be the kobe shooting more was if that effected ast'd statistics, also does the lakers running the triangle offense affect that compared to cavs offense.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">cool stuff, what is net points? Also, all i meant be the kobe shooting more was if that effected ast'd statistics, also does the lakers running the triangle offense affect that compared to cavs offense.</div> Net points on those pages refers to how many more points the team scored relative to the opponent. So with LeBron on the floor, the Cavs scored 271 more points than the opponent during the regular season. For more information, you can click on the On/Off Court link near the top of the page.
Fresh Prince, did you get all you wanted with those stats? You said <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lebron gets sooooo many of his buckets on fast breaks and broken plays, meaning that <u>his team mates give him the ball in a perfect position to score</u>. Kobe's team mates give him the ball on teh 3-point line with like 3 seconds on ther shot clock sooooo much it is just annoying. Lebron's teammates give him A LOT more scores than kobe's. Durvasa could you get me a stat that <u>shows percentage of basket's scored by lebron and kobe from an assist</u>? because i bet it would support my point </div> Durvasa provided stats. post #87 Overall percentage points ast'd: LBJ 32% KB 44% <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Whoops</div> Fresh Prince, then you said <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">also could you hook me up with a stat about % of dunks/easy layups?</div> Durvasa then replied <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> First, I'll dispute the label "easy layups". It takes skills to get all those layups. I'm not sure how many were really "easy layups", but 29% of LeBron's field goals were "close" shots that aren't dunks, compared to only 18% for Kobe.</div> I remeber before fans we're pushing the point.. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"><font color=""Purple"">about "being the center of offense" is that le bron is like their PG, he brings down the ball, passes the ball, etc... the lakers (WITH KOBE) pass around and it just so happens that kobe is the one that makes the shot almost everytime</font></div> that Lebron only got his assists because he was the center of the offense/// and also- only because his teammates we're more consistent than Kobe's. ~That Lebron brings the ball down the court like a PG--- and you also complain that the reason Lebron's FG% is better than Kobe's is because he takes a lot of "easy dunks/layups". Basically Kobe fans, YOU guys said with those posts 'Lebron gets assits because he brings the ball up-- <font color=""Sienna"">yet he also finishes much more frequently and effectively at the basket'</font> As for consistent teammates, before the 'Hate Kobe Praise Lebron' thread was closed, I had posted: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kobe NEVER averaged the assists Lebron had, wether he was playing with Jones Shaq Van Exel / Shaq Richmond Fisher Fox Shaw Harper Horry Rice/ Shaq Fisher Fox Grant George Payton Malone / Butler George Odom Atkins Mihm Why do yall insisnt on these excuses </div> ?? He wasnt the center of the offense; thats why huh? <u>Kobe Bryant</u> 03-04' 5.1 ast 2.63 To 1.94 ast/To 04-05' 6.0 ast 4.09 To 1.47 05-06' 4.5 ast 3.13 To 1.44 Best - <font color=""Purple"">01-02' 5.5 ast 2.79 To 1.97 ast/To </font> <u>Lebron James</u> 03-04' 5.9ast 3.46 To 1.7 <font color=""Sienna"">04-05' 7.2ast 3.28 To 2.2 </font> * Best 05-06' 6.6ast 3.29 To 2.01
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lebron's teammates give him a lot more scores than kobe's</div> LOL, what Cavs game have you been watching.....Lebron does most of the creating, hence why the cavs are looking for a pg to free up Bron so he "can" get more easy opportunities.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe the Legend Now wait a min ... Top Lake Laker Fan</div> Anyone understand what all this means?
Those stats shown are the way to compare players! It sure does beat the common rant of people just saying "bron is bron, kobe is kobe, jordan is jordan"....they shouldn't be compared. Uh...yes...they should. Durvasa thanks again. Could you also do a comparision of Jordan vs Bron for the first 3 seasons that they both played using stats?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Lostmyluggage:</div><div class="quote_post">Those stats shown are the way to compare players! It sure does beat the common rant of people just saying "bron is bron, kobe is kobe, jordan is jordan"....they shouldn't be compared. Uh...yes...they should. Durvasa thanks again. Could you also do a comparision of Jordan vs Bron for the first 3 seasons that they both played using stats?</div> It's not possible to do as detailed a comparison with Jordan, since most of that information (like % assisted, and how his play types break down) simply isn't available. Also, Jordan only played 18 regular season game his second year, so that wouldn't be a fair comparison. In general, the numbers show Jordan was great from the beginning, and if you want to say who had a better three years to start their career, the answer is definitely Jordan. But specifically comparing Jordan at 21 (his rookie year) to LeBron at 21 (his third year), LeBron probably has the edge. Compare LeBron and Jordan's numbers LeBron's PER this season was 28.1 and he had 48 win shares, MJ's was 25.8 and he had 40 win shares (which is just outstanding for a rookie, btw). Think of PER as a stat which indicates how good a player was statistically, per possession. Every year, the league average is set to 15. Win shares, developed by b-r.com, in theory indicates how many wins a player was responsible for (actually, you divide it by three to get that). Pretty good indication of how much value a player provided for his team. And, incidentally, the numbers turn out to be somewhat analogous to HRs in baseball (outside the steroid era), which makes it's conceptually easy to process (at least for me). For reference, here are the top ten PER seasons since 1978: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>1 Michael Jordan (1988)31.71<br/>2 Michael JOrdan (1991) 31.63<br/>3 Michael JOrdan (1990) 31.19<br/>4 Michael Jordan (1989) 31.14<br/>5 David Robinson (1994) 30.66<br/>6 Shaquille O'neal (2000)30.64<br/>7 Shaquille O'neal (1999)30.55<br/>8 Trace McGrady (2003)30.27<br/>9 Shaquille O'neal (2001)30.23<br/>10 Michael Jordan (1987)29.78<br/></div> And top ten Win Shares seasons <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>1 Michael Jordan (1989)59<br/>2 Michael Jordan (1990)59<br/>3 Michael Jordan (1988)58<br/>4 Shaquille O'neal (2000)58<br/>5 Michael Jordan (1996)57<br/>6 Michael Jordan (1991)56<br/>7 David Robinson (1994)55<br/>8 David Robinson (1995)54<br/>9 Kevin Garnett (2004)53<br/>10 David Robinson (1996)53<br/></div> All of these numbers are from basketball-reference.com, btw. And, yes, they confirm what most of us already knew. Michael Jordan was a pretty good basketball player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">Fresh Prince, did you get all you wanted with those stats? You said Durvasa provided stats. post #87 Overall percentage points ast'd: LBJ 32% KB 44% Fresh Prince, then you said Durvasa then replied I remeber before fans we're pushing the point.. that Lebron only got his assists because he was the center of the offense/// and also- only because his teammates we're more consistent than Kobe's. ~That Lebron brings the ball down the court like a PG--- and you also complain that the reason Lebron's FG% is better than Kobe's is because he takes a lot of "easy dunks/layups". Basically Kobe fans, YOU guys said with those posts 'Lebron gets assits because he brings the ball up-- yet he also finishes much more frequently and effectively at the basket' As for as consistent teammates, before the 'Hate Kobe Praise Lebron' thread was closed, I had posted: ?? He wasnt the center of the offense; thats why huh? <u>Kobe Bryant</u> 03-04' 5.1 ast 2.63 To 1.94 ast/To 04-05' 6.0 ast 4.09 To 1.47 05-06' 4.5 ast 3.13 To 1.44 Best - <font color=""Purple"">01-02' 5.5 ast 2.79 To 1.97 ast/To </font> <u>Lebron James</u> 03-04' 5.9ast 3.46 To 1.7 <font color=""Sienna"">04-05' 7.2ast 3.28 To 2.2 </font> * Best 05-06' 6.6ast 3.29 To 2.01 </div> Dude what the heck is your point. I was just curious on the stats of these two players. I was wrong statictically on a few points, what is your point by quoting me admitting i was wrong. Whats your argument here?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Michael Jordan was a pretty good basketball player. </div> he was okay....I mean it wasn't like he was all that great.....MJ = overrated.
