<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Best international Player is Hakeem Maybe the best to come up and be the best: Dirk Nowitzki </div>I agree there.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, he's not going to drive like a guard. That's asking a bit too much. But there isn't a PF in the league I can think of that that drives the ball as well as Dirk.</div> Ever heard of KG
Oh yeah, KG. KG is probably the most versatile player I ever saw. Too bad he's wasting his career in Minnesota. When his contract is up, he should bolt.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Phuzer:</div><div class="quote_post">Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Bosh, Amare Stoudemire, Al Harrington all drive better than Dirk IMO.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">Ever heard of KG</div> I used stats provided by mysynergysports.com to compare these players specifically on drives. I know it's off topic, but I wanted to defend my belief that Dirk is very good on drives for his position. Mysynergysports.com tracks every players score by play type so you can see how effective they are at scoring in various ways. For drives, I specifically looked at drives off of one-on-one/ISO situations and drives off of spot up situations. I think these cover the primary scenarios in which an NBA player would drive off of the "triple-threat position". For each play type, they show the percentage of the players offense that involved the play (%off), the points per play (PPP) the player was able to produce, and a percentile rank for his PPP (NBA%). I also show their rating, as defined blow: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">Rating Rank</font><br/>EXCELLENT83% - 100%<br/>VERY GOOD65% - 82%<br/>GOOD51% - 64%<br/>AVERAGE31% - 50%<br/>BELOW AVG15% - 30%<br/>POOR0% - 14%<br/></div> <font size=""4"">One on One/ISO drives (including pullups)</font> <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">%offRatingNBA%PPP</font><br/>Dirk19.8%EXCELLENT86%1.0<br/>KG8.7%AVERAGE50%0.82<br/>Bosh13.4%EXCELLENT86%1.0<br/>JO6.5%GOOD54%0.84<br/>Al14.6%AVERAGE50%0.82<br/></div> <font size=""4""> Spot Up drives (including pullups)</font> <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">%offRatingNBA%PPP</font><br/>Dirk(R)8.2%VERY GOOD69%1.06<br/>(L)9.2%EXCELLENT83%1.14<br/>KG(R)1.5%EXCELLENT91%1.33<br/>(L)9.0%VERY GOOD70%1.0<br/>Bosh(R)3.5%BELOW AVG30%0.71<br/>(L)5.7%VERY GOOD81%1.13<br/>JO(R) 2.5%EXCELLENT87%1.29<br/>(L)9.2%AVERAGE42%0.81<br/>Al(R) 5.6%VERY GOOD69%1.06<br/>(L) 15.2%AVERAGE 35%0.76<br/></div>
That looks good, but i have been watchin KG since the beginning and he can drive on ANYONE. As a pf he is so much quicker and faster than dirk and just about anyone else. Also his ball handling skills are out of this world for a seven footer. He has played point guard a number of times and did it very well.
I think it's not even a question. Dirk is the best driving big man in the league. Bosh is good, but no where near Dirk in any part of the game. KG is good, but not as good at driving as Dirk. Al Harrington...he's not even a true big man. He's a tweaner. If you threw Al in there, throw in Jamison as well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">That looks good, but i have been watchin KG since the beginning and he can drive on ANYONE. As a pf he is so much quicker and faster than dirk and just about anyone else. Also his ball handling skills are out of this world for a seven footer. He has played point guard a number of times and did it very well.</div> If he's so much better at driving to the basket, why is it this year he didn't drive as often, and when he did drive he wasn't as effective? When I made my statement, I was referring to the situation now, not 2 or 3 years ago. Maybe KG was better at drives back then. I don't remember. Edit: To be fair, the numbers I showed above include drives than end in pull up jumpers. Perhaps if only look at drives resulting in shots around the basket KG and some others turn out more effective. For completion, here are the drives to the basket (excluding pull up jumpers), off spot ups. Numbers on drives to the basket of ISOs weren't provided. Note that for some players (Garnett in particular), these involve a very small sample. I included total FGM/FGA as well, but a play could also have involve going to the free throw line (which Nowitzki was especially good at doing) and also turnovers. <font size=""4"">Drives to basket off Spot Ups</font> <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">%offRatingNBA%PPPFGM/FGA</font><br/>Dirk(R)3.1%VERY GOOD74%1.266/13<br/>(L)2.3%EXCELLENT89%1.54/7<br/>KG(R) 1.0%EXCELLENT100%2 1/1<br/>(L) 1.5%EXCELLENT100%2.33 3/3<br/>Bosh(R) 2.2%AVERAGE38%0.892/5<br/>(L)4.7%GOOD51%1.04/11<br/>JO(R)2.1%EXCELLENT87%1.54/5<br/>(L)3.5%AVERAGE38%0.93/8<br/>Al(R) 2.3%EXCELLENT91%1.714/5<br/>(L)7.3%GOOD59%1.059/15<br/></div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheBlackMamba:</div><div class="quote_post">I think it's not even a question. Dirk is the best driving big man in the league. Bosh is good, but no where near Dirk in any part of the game. KG is good, but not as good at driving as Dirk. Al Harrington...he's not even a true big man. He's a tweaner. If you threw Al in there, throw in Jamison as well.</div> I just dont see how dirk is a better driver than kg. He is a lot slower, less agressive, and is a much worse ball handler. Kg just gives a little pump fake takes one or two dribbles and scores, easy as that. Dirk has to just meander his way around people until he can finally lay up an ugly shot that is almost always off balanced. Dirk has been a beast this year in the playoffs and regular season, but he is still pretty clumsy when dribbling the ball and he is still quite slow. People tend to focus on just a few performances rather than a players complete history. The only thing dirk is better than kg at is 3 point shooting, that is it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">If he's so much better at driving to the basket, why is it last year he didn't drive as often, and when he did drive he wasn't as effective? When I made my statement, I was referring to the situation now, not 2 or 3 years ago. Maybe KG was better at drives back then. I don't remember.</div> He changed his game this year to try and fit this horrid team. The wolves needed kg to make his team better. We are a young and inexperienced team and kg's job was not to score 30 ppg, it was to make these young inexperienced players to play well together. And what stats are u using to judge driving ABILITY.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">I just dont see how dirk is a better driver than kg. He is a lot slower, less agressive, and is a much worse ball handler. Kg just gives a little pump fake takes one or two dribbles and scores, easy as that. Dirk has to just meander his way around people until he can finally lay up an ugly shot that is almost always off balanced. Dirk has been a beast this year in the playoffs and regular season, but he is still pretty clumsy when dribbling the ball and he is still quite slow. People tend to focus on just a few performances rather than a players complete history. The only thing dirk is better than kg at is 3 point shooting, that is it.</div> Aesthetics don't matter. And I showed numbers for the past season, not just a few performances. Right now, I think Dirk drives the ball as well as any PF in the league. It may not be pretty, but he does it often and he's effective which is all that really matters.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">He changed his game this year to try and fit this horrid team. The wolves needed kg to make his team better. We are a young and inexperienced team and kg's job was not to score 30 ppg, it was to make these young inexperienced players to play well together. And what stats are u using to judge driving ABILITY.</div> I care about results. If so called ability isn't reflected in what actually happens on the court, then who cares? Here are some more numbers, which I think are relevant to the discussion. Comparing "aggressiveness", it's useful to contrast percentage of shot attempts in which a player draws a foul (available at 82games). Based on what you say, I'd expect Garnett to have a huge edge, particularly in past years. Let's check the last 4 years: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">DirkKG</font><br/>200612.3%13.4%<br/>200516.5%14.8%<br/>200412.0%11.4%<br/>200313.2%12.8%<br/></div> Interestingly enough, Garnett actually drew more fouls per shot attempt this season than Dirk, while in past years Dirk had an edge.
I dont like stats for this reason. Dirk is expected to score for his team, Kg isnt. Watching the two play how can you possibly say that dirk is a better at getting to the rim. Kg's post moves are remarkable as well as his moves from anywhere on the court. Dirk goes up strong and shoots from the outside. KG does whatever he wants. When was the last time KG got blocked? it rarely happens at all. whether he is taking it up strong or shooting a 20 footer. Durvasa i know your stats show that dirk is a better driver but when you watch these two play who do you think can get to the rim better, it has to be KG. ADD. And how many of those drives result in an assist, because KG leads big men in assists every single year. And like i said above KG avoids the contact to get the bucket or assist, he rarely puts himself in a position to be fouled due to the amount of fadeaways he takes.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont like stats for this reason. Dirk is expected to score for his team, Kg isnt. Watching the two play how can you possibly say that dirk is a better at getting to the rim. Kg's post moves are remarkable as well as his moves from anywhere on the court. Dirk goes up strong and shoots from the outside. KG does whatever he wants. When was the last time KG got blocked? it rarely happens at all. whether he is taking it up strong or shooting a 20 footer. Durvasa i know your stats show that dirk is a better driver but when you watch these two play who do you think can get to the rim better, it has to be KG. ADD. And how many of those drives result in an assist, because KG leads big men in assists every single year. And like i said above KG avoids the contact to get the bucket or assist, he rarely puts himself in a position to be fouled due to the amount of fadeaways he takes.</div> You talk about KG's postup skills and ability to not get his shot blocked. All well and good, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue at hand -- who's more effective on dribble drives. I consider stats supporting evidence. When you say "you don't like stats", to me that's like someone arguing in a court room they don't like potential evidence. Instead, please just say that you find the stats misleading or irrelevant for [such and such reason]. As far as who gets to the rim better off of drives, simply relying on perception is problematic. Because Garnett is more athletic and more likely to finish his drives to the basket in a memorable fashion (with a pretty dunk, for instance), that can easily bias my perception of who's more effective. If there was information available (and the sample is of a good size) that showed Dirk drives to the basket twice as frequently as Garnett, and he's also more efficient (points scored per drive attempt), than that's pretty strong evidence that he's better at driving to the basket. Regardless of who we might perceive as having better ball-handling skills or superior athleticism. You bring up a good point on drives that lead to a pass off to a teammate. The numbers I presented don't count such plays as "drives" to my knowledge. You're obviously more knowledgable on T-wolves basketball, but from what I've seen I don't recall Garnett getting a lot of assists on "drive and dish" plays. Perhaps that's something that happens frequently, in which case you'd have to factor that in when comparing their driving ability. When we talk about being "aggressive", that usually means taking the ball towards the basket or into the defense. And even though Dirk doesn't post up in low blocks nearly as often as Garnett, he still draws fouls at a higher frequency on his shot attempts. To me, that indicates Dirk is a more aggressive player, and he's probably relying on dribble drives towards the basket much more than Garnett (since that's the most common way of drawing fouls along with post ups). We're kind of getting off on a tangent. My original point was that I think Dirk has proven himself to be very good at driving the basketball, particularly for a PF. Maybe some other PFs like KG are better at it, but I think I've established that Dirk is pretty good at it in his own right. He has a deceptive ability to get to the basket and draw fouls, and he has a very effective pull up jumper on drives as well.
Currently Dirk Nowitzki, as much as it pains me to say it he will be very hard to contain in finals...
Hakeem. His footwork was unreal. He schooled SHAQ! Schooled him. I was rooting for Orlando too! haha.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">You talk about KG's postup skills and ability to not get his shot blocked. All well and good, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue at hand -- who's more effective on dribble drives. I consider stats supporting evidence. When you say "you don't like stats", to me that's like someone arguing in a court room they don't like potential evidence. Instead, please just say that you find the stats misleading or irrelevant for [such and such reason]. As far as who gets to the rim better off of drives, simply relying on perception is problematic. Because Garnett is more athletic and more likely to finish his drives to the basket in a memorable fashion (with a pretty dunk, for instance), that can easily bias my perception of who's more effective. If there was information available (and the sample is of a good size) that showed Dirk drives to the basket twice as frequently as Garnett, and he's also more efficient (points scored per drive attempt), than that's pretty strong evidence that he's better at driving to the basket. Regardless of who we might perceive as having better ball-handling skills or superior athleticism. You bring up a good point on drives that lead to a pass off to a teammate. The numbers I presented don't count such plays as "drives" to my knowledge. You're obviously more knowledgable on T-wolves basketball, but from what I've seen I don't recall Garnett getting a lot of assists on "drive and dish" plays. Perhaps that's something that happens frequently, in which case you'd have to factor that in when comparing their driving ability. When we talk about being "aggressive", that usually means taking the ball towards the basket or into the defense. And even though Dirk doesn't post up in low blocks nearly as often as Garnett, he still draws fouls at a higher frequency on his shot attempts. To me, that indicates Dirk is a more aggressive player, and he's probably relying on dribble drives towards the basket much more than Garnett (since that's the most common way of drawing fouls along with post ups). We're kind of getting off on a tangent. My original point was that I think Dirk has proven himself to be very good at driving the basketball, particularly for a PF. Maybe some other PFs like KG are better at it, but I think I've established that Dirk is pretty good at it in his own right. He has a deceptive ability to get to the basket and draw fouls, and he has a very effective pull up jumper on drives as well.</div> OK, great post. I find stats misleading because the free throw thing doesnt show up on KG's agressiveness because he rarely gets blocked/fouled. (thats where i was going with that.) And agressively i was referring to every aspect of the game, defense, rebounding hustle everything. Kg has soooooo much passion in this game, it's hard to say many are more agressive, he works so hard at every aspect of the game. I know your point about dirk being a good driver, which i agree he is, but in a few post you said he was better than KG. And check the stats on the assist, i am pretty sure he has lead all big men in assists for like 7-8 years in a row. a few years he was even top 20 in the league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post"> I know your point about dirk being a good driver, which i agree he is, but in a few post you said he was better than KG. And check the stats on the assist, i am pretty sure he has lead all big men in assists for like 7-8 years in a row. a few years he was even top 20 in the league.</div> I don't know for sure if he's better. I have an opinion based on the games I've seen both play. I've been watching a lot of Dirk recently, so that might have biased my perception. What I meant was I can't think of a PF who drives the ball better than Dirk. Still not totally sure on KG. I'd have to watch his game a bit more closely next time there's a T-Wolves game on the tube. The statistical evidence that I've found (and I recognize there are limitations) seem to favor Dirk. As for the assists, definitely KG gets his fair share. He's a great passer. But how many of them come off of "drive and dish" type plays?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know for sure if he's better. I have an opinion based on the games I've seen both play. I've been watching a lot of Dirk recently, so that might have biased my perception. What I meant was I can't think of a PF who drives the ball better than Dirk. Still not totally sure on KG. I'd have to watch his game a bit more closely next time there's a T-Wolves game on the tube. The statistical evidence that I've found (and I recognize there are limitations) seem to favor Dirk. As for the assists, definitely KG gets his fair share. He's a great passer. But how many of them come off of "drive and dish" type plays?</div> I've been watching dirk a lot lately too, and i am starting to like his game besides the defense. I have never like him in the past because he was to timid and didnt drive enough. He really showed what he can do this year, but KG has been able to drive by anyone so easily from day one. And he often gets assists by driving into the low post and drawing triple teams then kicks it out to a shooter. As for the way dirk drives, the ugliness of it matters. KG drives fluidly and easily while dirk has to meander all around expending a lot of energy. Dirk isnt quite quick enough to just blow by a guy like kg can. Dirk kind of just goes right into his guy and pulls up a lot (like your stat shows) or gets fouled (again your statistic show that) while usually not in complete control. Like i have stated above KG avoids getting blocked by being in such a huge amount of control while driving, while dirk is very much out of control.
