Anyone that doesn't think Shard for Marion is a great trade in our favor is missing something. I agree with all of Shiek's points, lets hope it goes down.
The whole point behind the Shard deal is to let Shard opt out when its time. Basically, the Suns are wanting to rid themselves of Marion's contract in lieu of Diaw's progression. Diaw is younger and a better offensive player when it becomes a half court game. Diaw really proved to be the vital cog for Phx in this offseason when Stoudamire was missing inside. Marion is a transition basketball player. Diaw is too, but brings far more to the half court game than Marion. And he is younger. Phoenix could then go look for help at the wing with Shawne Williams, Rodney Carney, possibly Ronnie Brewer, or for size like Patrick O'Bryant or Saer Sene. Pheonix was killed on the boards in the postseason, so adding Fortson (and getting Stoudamire back) will help. Not to mention, Diaw did well for them too. I think you have to do this if you are Phoenix. It allows for greater cap flexibility, and essentially replacing Marion with someone younger (and potentially better) in Diaw. And they get a higher pick, to boot.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">The whole point behind the Shard deal is to let Shard opt out when its time. Basically, the Suns are wanting to rid themselves of Marion's contract in lieu of Diaw's progression.</div> Well yeah, it just seems like such a waste, especially given Marion's pedigree. Taking a one year rental on Rashard and banking on Diaw continuing to improve at the rate he has is a huge risk, but at the same time I guess they pretty much have to pay him whatever he likes, and that means trying to get out of Matrix's deal. Circumstance really does fall right into Seattle's hands here.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Sir Desmond:</div><div class="quote_post">Well yeah, it just seems like such a waste, especially given Marion's pedigree. Taking a one year rental on Rashard and banking on Diaw continuing to improve at the rate he has is a huge risk, but at the same time I guess they pretty much have to pay him whatever he likes, and that means trying to get out of Matrix's deal. Circumstance really does fall right into Seattle's hands here.</div> Why is it a risk? Playoff Comparisons Diaw: 18.7 ppg 52.6% FG 6.7 rpg 5.2 apg .9 spg 1.1 bpg Marion: 20.35 ppg 48.9% FG 11.7 rpg 1.6 apg 1.85 spg 1.15 bpg The rebounding numbers stick out (in favor of Marion) as well as the assists (in Diaw's favor) but its not that big of a jump. This allows them to keep Diaw, they get Shard for a year (who could replace Thomas if they opt to let him go....and I am sure Shard will fit in nicely down in Phx), move up in the draft to a top 10 pick (and can get size, or another wing).... It really seems like a no brainer for Phx. And any rebounding loss, Diaw could potentially make up for it, as will having Stoudamire back, and Fortson....as well as the pick....
Marion was by far the team's best defender and half of Diaw's assists were because of him, anyway. It's not all about the playoffs.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">Marion was by far the team's best defender and half of Diaw's assists were because of him, anyway. It's not all about the playoffs.</div> Maybe you missed the part where I said Diaw could develop into someone better. Key word being "could." The stats were posted to show that in the playoffs, Diaw elevated his game to a level near Marions. Obviously, Diaw still needs to improve. But what he did in the playoffs, against the elite Western Conference teams suggest he can, and probably will, continue to improve. I'd be more skeptical if he was doing it against the likes of Toronto, NY, and Charlotte. But he played well against quality playoff teams in the Clippers, Lakers, and the Mavericks. As for the "half of his assists were bec. of Marion" comment...that is totally irrelevant and nothing short of grasping at straws. I seriously doubt you have a link to substaniate that. But if you do, please provide me with it. (I am willing to bet 50% of his assists were not as a result of Marion) And secondly, even if they were, there would be someone else on the court to make the pass too. Maybe it takes a small hit. Maybe it doesn't. But that's irrelevant. Diaw proved himself in the playoffs against playoff teams that he is progressing and going to be a good player. Its not far fetched to say he could end up being better than Marion given that the stats weren't that far off. Again, in the last sentence, I used the word "could." In either case, Phx wants to shed themselves of Marion's contract to be able to retain Barbosa and Diaw. And it makes sense. Diaw offers more versatility offensively and can guard any position. Plus, they get to move up in the draft and rent out Rashard Lewis for a year. Seems like a no brainer for Phx.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting monty001:</div><div class="quote_post">What is Marions contract anyway? How many years and $$$?</div> 06/07: $15,070,000 07/08: $16,440,000 08/09: $17,180,000
Vintage, Boris Diaw's and Barbosa will be restricted free agents in '07. How much is it worth to Phoenix to keep Diaw, possibly Barbosa, and possibly Rashard Lewis if this deal goes down? All three will command a very lucrative contract extension and both Nash and Stoudamire are still making almost 1/2 of the current salary cap for the next 3 seasons. Again, I'm not a Marion fan but to suggest that Diaw can average over 20 and 10 for a season is a definite reach. One of the reasons why he excelled so much last season is b/c he primarily played at the 5, especially when Kurt Thomas went down. If Stoudamire comes back healthy then Diaw will be forced to play either the 3 or the 4 where his quickness advantage will not be as evident over his competition. I understand why Phoenix would do this but I don't think that it is a no brainer move for them, especially if Barbosa is involved in the trade. I'm sure that Earl Watson is being mentioned in the trade discussions and I doubt that we'd part w/ him for Barbosa when he is in his contract year. Diaw is a very versatile player that fit in exceptionally well w/ the undersized Suns. Next year's team will not be as undersized and w/o Marion's exceptional rebounding the Suns will have to count on Diaw to not only be a reliable scoring threat against players of his size and quickness but also a yeoman on the boards. I'm not sure that he is ready for that type of responsibility w/ a role that is undefined for him --especially if Marion is not in the fold (or Stoudamire returns as the old Stoudamire). Contractually Marion's salary seems to be a bit more than what he is worth but considering that we'd probably would not opt to resign Nick Collison it would probably equate to or be less than what it would cost to keep both Sweet Lew and Nick Collison in the fold for long term deals. Marion is still young and more than capable of playing at a high level for the duration of his contract. In my opinion if Barbosa is included in the deal this deal would easily benefit the Sonics more than it would Phoenix -- especially considering how depth has been a significant problem for Phoenix in recent years. Seattle, no matter how much cap space they have, will never attract top quality free agents unless we overspend for them. How we accumulate talent is through the draft and via trades (and very astute scouting of undrafted free agents). If we are going to get over the hump we are going to have to make a blockbuster move that will enable us to keep a core group together for more than one season. This would be that type of move. So slow down on this Diaw is the second coming of James Worthy talk. He performed very admirably in the regular season and exceptionally well in the playoffs but he had difficulty adjusting to the NBA in Atlanta and I think that he could possibly have difficulty adjusting to his new role in Phoenix in the event that Sweet Lew arrives and Stoudamire is his old self (not to mention Kurt Thomas recovering from his injury.)
This would be good for both teams, this would help the Suns more though I reckon, they could take a good team into next season, I'd like to see somthing like: C - Patrick O'Bryant / Kurt Thomas PF - Amare Stoudemire / Danny Fortson SF - Rashard Lewis / Tim Thomas SG - Boris Diaw / Raja Bell PG - Steve Nash Seattle wouldnt be too hard done by, picking up Marion would be great for them IMO, and they could still snag a decent centre or forward with the 27th, i'd like to seem them take a chance on a sleeper if they did this trade, some one like Leon Powe, although they probally wouldnt be willing to take the risk, with the state the team is in right now.
Update on the trade from Draftexpress... - The trade apparently does have legs, but it's one of a number of moves being considered by both teams - It will obviously be a draft day trade if true, as it is apparently conditional on Foye and Shelden Williams being off the board (for us to do it) and on Carney or Brewer still being on the board (for the Suns to take in the trade). Stay tuned I guess, if we draft Carney or Brewer at 10 then it may be a goer. http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1374
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">Vintage, Boris Diaw's and Barbosa will be restricted free agents in '07. </div> Which is next year.....which is why they need the salary room (to avoid paying the luxury tax) <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> How much is it worth to Phoenix to keep Diaw, possibly Barbosa, and possibly Rashard Lewis if this deal goes down? </div> None. They want to keep Barbosa and Diaw. Lewis is a rental for a year. That's the whole point. Lewis would probably save the Suns $15-$16 million by ridding them of Marion....which means they can keep Diaw and Barbosa, which is the whole point of the trade. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> All three will command a very lucrative contract extension and both Nash and Stoudamire are still making almost 1/2 of the current salary cap for the next 3 seasons. </div> Barbosa and Diaw won't command max extensions. Combined, they probably will be in the Marion salary range. So, is it worth keeping Marion, but losing Diaw, Barbosa, and a better draft prospect? Or Vice versa? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Again, I'm not a Marion fan but to suggest that Diaw can average over 20 and 10 for a season is a definite reach. </div> Again, I never said he was going to average 20/10. I said in the playoffs, his stats weren't that far off from Marion....when both were playing high level competitors. I doubt Diaw rebounding numbers will ever exceed 10. But he is a better shooter, better passer, has better handles, and could develop into a better overall player. And considering the playoffs Diaw had....that is not entirely unreasonable. His numbers weren't that far off of Marion's. That is not unreasonable. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> One of the reasons why he excelled so much last season is b/c he primarily played at the 5, especially when Kurt Thomas went down. If Stoudamire comes back healthy then Diaw will be forced to play either the 3 or the 4 where his quickness advantage will not be as evident over his competition. </div> He excelled bec. he has the versatility to play all 5 positions. He excelled bec. defensively, he could even guard some of the 5's (and any other position). He excelled bec. he was a good passer/play maker. He excelled bec. he could shoot. He excelled bec. he is a good player. Even if he moves back to the 4, which he probably would, all of his skills will follow him. And he will still retain his quickness advantage. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I understand why Phoenix would do this but I don't think that it is a no brainer move for them, especially if Barbosa is involved in the trade. I'm sure that Earl Watson is being mentioned in the trade discussions and I doubt that we'd part w/ him for Barbosa when he is in his contract year. </div> I thought Barbosa was not part of the trade? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Diaw is a very versatile player that fit in exceptionally well w/ the undersized Suns. Next year's team will not be as undersized and w/o Marion's exceptional rebounding the Suns will have to count on Diaw to not only be a reliable scoring threat against players of his size and quickness but also a yeoman on the boards. I'm not sure that he is ready for that type of responsibility w/ a role that is undefined for him --especially if Marion is not in the fold (or Stoudamire returns as the old Stoudamire). </div> Having Stoudamire back will only HELP Diaw. Stoudamire becomes a more favored option, meaning Diaw will be the third option. It also means Stoudamire will be pulling in more rebounds. Last year's team made it to the WCF with Marion being their best rebounder, and Diaw being their second best. If the trade is donw, Stoudamire is their best rebounder, and Diaw still remains their second best. The question is, can Stoudamire (not Diaw) make up for Marion's rebounding? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> So slow down on this Diaw is the second coming of James Worthy talk. He performed very admirably in the regular season and exceptionally well in the playoffs but he had difficulty adjusting to the NBA in Atlanta and I think that he could possibly have difficulty adjusting to his new role in Phoenix in the event that Sweet Lew arrives and Stoudamire is his old self (not to mention Kurt Thomas recovering from his injury.)</div> Slow down on this Diaw is a scrub and will never amount to anything talk. Hyperbole is fun. Where did I say he was the second coming of James Worthy? Where did I say, for a fact, that Diaw WILL develop into someone better than Marion? I bet you cannot find any statement that says so. Go ahead and look. And provide me with a link. I am curious. Again, you took everything I said and used it to your own agenda. Congrats. But that doesn't make you right. I'll type even sloooooweeerrrrr so you can understand. Recap: I said Diaw COULD COULD COULD COULD COULD COULD COULD develop into a better player. Did that sink in yet? COULD COULD COULD COULD Better? I said Diaw's stats weren't THAT far off? Read that statement at least 10 times. Maybe 20. Where in that statement did I saw Diaw was going to average 10 rpg or score 20 ppg? I said Diaw could also develop into a better overall player. That doesn't mean Diaw will develop into a better defender. A better overall player. Diaw is already a better shooter, passer, ball handler. Dare I say he is a better half court option than Marion? Dare I say that there might not be much of a drop off between the two in fast break option? Methinks Diaw could fill in nicely in that area with Marion gone. End of recap He had difficulty adjusting in Atlanta. Which proves....what? It was Atlanta. Atlanta is not exactly a hot bed for talent. He fits nicely in Phx, which is the whole point in Phx wanting to retain him. What I can't figure out is why you seemingly took offense to my statement that it seems like a no brainer for Phx. My guess is bec. you somehow took that statement to mean that its a knock on Seattle bec. I view it as a smart move for Phoenix. Or perhaps bec. I am not clamoring for Phoenix to keep Marion bec. they couldn't possibly replace him, thus making it a great trade for Seattle.... I am merely speculating here....
It's great to see you back, Vintage. It does make a lot of sense for Phoenix financially (which is obviously the whole point), just seems pretty unbelievable for Seattle fans that we could land someone of Marion's calibre for someone who, for all his offensive talents, still has only just broken 20ppg twice in his career and has declined as a rebounder, not to mention continues to have niggling injuries that keep him out. The confusion here is (and I fell for this initially too) people think Lewis will re-sign in Phoenix, rather than just using him for a season. Marion is a pretty big piece to trade for a rental, and Lewis is a quality offensive player who should be coming into the prime of his career. Would be strange to say the least, even if it does make a lot of sense in the long run.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">On Monday, Rashard Lewis told Percy Allen that he wants to sign a two-year extension with Seattle this summer and hopes to "put an end to my name always coming up in stuff like this at this time of the year." He has been mentioned in multiple trade rumors, including one where he would be sent to Phoenix, a trade that has been adamantly denied. "I've put a lot of thought into it [signing an extension] during the season and now, and I would love to finish my career in Seattle and be on one team my entire career," he said in a phone interview. "I don't know if that will happen. I don't know if I can do that because that rarely happens in the NBA today."</div> Source
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Sir Desmond:</div><div class="quote_post">It's great to see you back, Vintage. It does make a lot of sense for Phoenix financially (which is obviously the whole point), just seems pretty unbelievable for Seattle fans that we could land someone of Marion's calibre for someone who, for all his offensive talents, still has only just broken 20ppg twice in his career and has declined as a rebounder, not to mention continues to have niggling injuries that keep him out. The confusion here is (and I fell for this initially too) people think Lewis will re-sign in Phoenix, rather than just using him for a season. Marion is a pretty big piece to trade for a rental, and Lewis is a quality offensive player who should be coming into the prime of his career. Would be strange to say the least, even if it does make a lot of sense in the long run.</div> Its a trade that benefits both teams, which seemingly, is a rarity these days. On Seattles, side, they view it as getting Marion and a lower 1st for Reshard, Fortson, and a higher first. This draft is deep in the sense that there isn't a ton of dropoff from around 8-end of the first round. So Seattle can still get a good player. On Phoenix's side, they view it as losing Marion and a low first, but getting Reshard, Forson, a higher 1st, and being able to keep Diaw and Barbosa. Their other option is to lose potentially Diaw or Barbosa (possibly both). Its easy to see why Phx is interested despite giving up the best player in the trade. They are a small market team who cannot afford the luxury tax. So really, what it boils down to for Phx is this.... They can keep Diaw (who at worst, is a step below Marion, at best, can exceed Marion), Barbosa (who is needed to relieve Nash bec. Nash is getting older and they need to keep him fresh for the playoffs), Lewis (one year rental), and a better prospect (Brewer at the wing, or Sene/O'Bryant down low) Or they can keep Marion and their 20 something pick.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Trade talks between Seattle and Phoenix apparently ongoing, according to the Tacoma News Tribune. It was previously reported that the clubs were discussing a deal that would send Shawn Marion and possibly Leandro Barbosa to Seattle in exchange for Rashard Lewis and Danny Fortson. Draft picks would also be involved. According to sources, Fortson's negative history with the Suns is the primary reason why the deal has hit a snag.</div> Source
I find it hard to believe Fortson would be a problem unless they plan on trying to keep him. I figured they would just release him right away.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Trying to build a playoff team around star forward Chris Bosh, the Raptors attempted to use the No. 1 pick to acquire a lower pick and an established point guard. But they were unsuccessful. They also offered the pick in a major package deal for Seattle star Ray Allen.</div> Source
Heard the Ray Allen one. I still find it hard to believe we would take on Marion's contract in addition to having Ray's and paying Wilcox.
