Trade Ike + #9?

Remember we still have Murph to trade after July 1.

Aldridge - I dood it
Gay - Gay could be a superstar, so I dood it
Roy - ditto
Morrison - ditto
Bargnani - ditto
Thomas - ditto

 

Trade Ike, 9th pick and Murphy? Then, who will play PF? I don't feel very comfortable to leave our PF position to rookie...

 

I think if you can get Aldridge or Gay, then you pull the trigger. Aldridge can do the things Ike can do and also play center. He's very polished and should be able to step in right away getting some PT even though not as starter. Hopefully, he can do well enough to beat out Foyle. Then AB can get some PT at PF imo.

If we get Gay, it's because he's got superstar potential in him. He hasn't been that type of player in college, but I've been reading it was because of UConn. On the Warriors, he would be unleashed and seems like a good front court player to receive passes from Baron. He's got athleticism in spades and should be a good rebounder and defender, too.

I'm also hyphed on Morrison because the Warriors need another perimeter shooter bad. I think he'll be a good fit with Baron and be a true force on offense. Teams won't be able to sag inside as they have done in the past. That will give JRich a chance to slash more and open up the inside for Zarko, Dun, Baron and AB on offense. Morrison has good size, so think he'll be able to rebound at the next level. The only question is his D since he seems to be a skosh slow. But the guy's shooting is very intriguing no doubt.

Roy duplicates JRich to some degree, so we'll have to think how he will fit. But from what I've read and seen, he seems like a future all-star. He's BAP more than need.

I haven't seen much of Bargnani besides his highlights, but he looks really great. His game is a bit like Murphy's (outside), but he is much more mobile. He's long and does have a solid reputation in Italy and rest of Europe. He's BAP and would fill a need.

Thomas is the top six guy I question most mainly because of his "promise" that wasn't there act. He also wants to play SF in the NBA so that will take some adjustment. Maybe I wouldn't pull the trigger on this deal, but I'd have to trust Mullin if he did.

As for Murphy, I should've put down that we trade him or just keep him. Murphy can be traded for a vet we can use or we can just keep him until Aldridge, Gay or one of the top 6 develop.

I'm proposing trading Ike because of his limited upside. While he can score and play low post, he didn't impress Monty a whole lot. It seemed Monty criticized his game a lot last season and yanked him for too many quick fouls, poor defense, lack of rebounding or whatever reason.

No one questions Ike not having enough height. He's got the wingspan and reach to make up for it, but he doesn't seem to take advantage because of his lack of athleticism. He gets shots blocked. I doubt anyone would say at this point that he could become another Elton Brand. Thus, he's somewhere between Brand and Corliss Williamson when he first came into the league. I'd say Ike is closer to Corliss. 18/8 or even 15/8? Those are close to Murphy's numbers and I just don't see Ike getting the PT to reach those numbers. Ike seems to fit the second string better than the first string.

Ike has high trade value right now, so why not take advantage?

 

I'll trade Ike + 9 for Tyrus Thomas or Aldridge.

 

Here's a question... Ike was the 9th pick in a talented draft. If Ike was in this years draft, what pick would he be?

 

Why trade Ike and a pick for another pick?

Is moving up from #9 in this draft really worth giving up a player like Ike?

Hell no.

Now maybe just Ike for a higher pick, but not both.

#9 in this draft will be fine.

P.S. Ike is going to be a quality starter in this league

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said I'd definitely trade Ike and 9 if Alrdidge is available, maybe Rudy Gay but theres a Rudy Gay in every draft. I don't even think Ike and the 9 pick could get us very high since prospects like Gay or Aldridge can be superstars while neither Ike nor the 9 pick will be much more than role players.</div>

No question LaMarcus Aldridge would be a fantastic pick for the Warriors. The only question is will Ike + #9 get him? Doubtful as Aldridge will go in top 3 if not #1.

The Warriors will have an awesome front line with Aldridge and be set for years to come:
C: Aldridge, Foyle, Taft
PF: AB, Murphy
SF: Dunleavy, Zarko
SG: JRich, Fish
PG: Baron, Monta,

I disagree that there is a Rudy Gay in every draft. He's proven at the college level and he stands out even among that group of players and on the UConn team. I think he had to defer some of his offensive game to Jim Calhoun. Gay should be able to step in as a starter sometime this year if Dun falters or at least get around 20 mins at SF. The guy really has a lot of athleticism and upside.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think everyone agrees that Ike won't be Elton Brand but he's already proven he can be better than Corliss Williamson since he can actually play PF unlike Williamson who has to play SF most of the time. A better comparison for Ike would be Carlos Boozer or Zach Randolph with better shotblocking and attitude. Ike did show improvement throughout the season, and his shot getting blocked wasn't a problem at the end of the season. In 11 games in April when he was averaging 22.5 mpg (not even starters minutes) he averaged 12.5 ppg on 54% shooting, going to the line 5.3 times a game and shooting 86% from the line, 6 rpg, and .73 bpg. As the season winded down he continued to impress since he was getting more opportunities as can be seen here</div>.

What's funny is you will get a lot negative comments as well as positive ones for Boozer or Randolph. I suppose you're saying Ike is like those players but with a good attitude. Maybe his offensive game can match them eventually, but I don't think he'll get the chance here. As I said, Monty didn't seem particularly fond of Ike's game nor did Ike seem to fit well with the starting lineup. He found his game with the second lineup. Again, I have to question how much upside Ike will have and his athleticism. His game will be more or less WYSIWYG and he will have to find a "fit" on a team that can use his talents. He is more a help defender and would help a team with someone solid in the middle already.

I would not hesitate to trade Ike in order to move up as there are players in the top 6 who have more upside or a seemingly better "fit" with the Warriors.

I suppose we can keep Ike if Mullin is able to trade for a bonafide center like Samuel Dalembert or Jamaal Magloire. Those guys should be able to mesh with Ike since they like to play in the paint and play an aggressive game on offense and defense. I'm not completely sure if Monty will recognize that though. He'll likely play Murphy if Murph isn't traded for the above mentioned players and we still have both Ike and Murphy.

 

Aldrige is probably way more finesse, less power than Ike. Plus, questions about his aggressiveness and defensive ability have me wanting Ike Diogu a lot more.

I think if Ike were to go into this draft he'd probably be going as high as #5, but we'd still pick Ike if he fell to #9. So #9.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Aldrige is probably way more finesse, less power than Ike. Plus, questions about his aggressiveness and defensive ability have me wanting Ike Diogu a lot more.

I think if Ike were to go into this draft he'd probably be going as high as #5, but we'd still pick Ike if he fell to #9. So #9.</div>

I think LMA is going #1 or #2. If the Warriors were picking #1, I would guess they would take him at #1. Larry Beil mentioned some rumor of him going to the Warriors at #2 (trade with Chicago).

I watched LMA on Yahoo along with his interview. He doesn't seem a finesse guy, but more a power guy. He sees himself as a cross between Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan. He's only 20 and has good size already. His upside is Jermaine O'Neal and down is Channing Frye.

No direct link. One has to see one video and then scroll up or down the menu.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba;_ylt=ArU92ih0p...npNwE8X_yo5nYcB

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Aldrige is probably way more finesse, less power than Ike. Plus, questions about his aggressiveness and defensive ability have me wanting Ike Diogu a lot more.

I think if Ike were to go into this draft he'd probably be going as high as #5, but we'd still pick Ike if he fell to #9. So #9.</div>

With my queston I was trying to show that in this draft Ike would be a lottery pick, and a high valued one. So trading Ike + 9th is like trading two lottery picks to get #1 or 2.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">Why trade Ike and a pick for another pick?

Is moving up from #9 in this draft really worth giving up a player like Ike?

Hell no.

Now maybe just Ike for a higher pick, but not both.

#9 in this draft will be fine.

P.S. Ike is going to be a quality starter in this league</div>

My guess is Mullin would offer Pietrus + #9 for the #2 pick and then work up or down from there. I'm basing this on one rumor that Houston has offered Luther Head + #8 for the #5. However, it could be smoke or maybe not.

I'm just saying realistically, it will take a Ike + #9 to move up even in this weak draft. If W's can make a trade for Aldridge at #2, that would be great.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AnimeFANatic:</div><div class="quote_post">With my queston I was trying to show that in this draft Ike would be a lottery pick, and a high valued one. So trading Ike + 9th is like trading two lottery picks to get #1 or 2.</div>

I have a hard time answering that question. Likely Ike would be a higher lotto pick based on another year at ASU, but I suppose that would be for the Warriors. Maybe he would be liked by ATL more than Shelden if they really want a PF at #5.

I'm not sure where Ike would've gone if he wasn't chosen. It seems that #9 was a bit high for him last season, so #7 or #8 wouldn't be that bad a guess adding one more year and this being a thin draft.

 

This draft is too hard to tell... especially with aldridge and his good/bad moments in the NCAA... He's really young so it's anybody's guess as to what he could achieve in the NBA.

I get the feeling he can emulate Tim Duncan in some ways, but in no way is he a killer instinct type guy like J.O. or Duncan or with the J.O. freak athleticism or Duncan type strength. That's just IMO. But hey I think Duncan is way better than J.O. because he's just so incredibly smart and talented, not to mention strong and very tall. Aldrige has a very smooth post game that is similar to the way Duncan would play, not to mention the same calm approach to the game. I don't think Aldrige will be as great as Duncan, but he's the same type of guy that doesn't go crazy and he uses teamwork, fundamentals, and footwork to compete. One question I have about Aldrige is his ability to enforce the paint and step up like a star. One can marvel about his size and athleticism all they want, but what if he turns out like Joe Smith or that one guy out of Arizona. I forget his name. Loren Woods or somebody.

It's hard to tell how good he could become. What was he again? 15 and 10 in college with a selfish backcourt?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">This draft is too hard to tell... especially with aldridge and his good/bad moments in the NCAA... He's really young so it's anybody's guess as to what he could achieve in the NBA.

I get the feeling he can emulate Tim Duncan in some ways, but in no way is he a killer instinct type guy like J.O. or Duncan or with the J.O. freak athleticism or Duncan type strength. That's just IMO. But hey I think Duncan is way better than J.O. because he's just so incredibly smart and talented, not to mention strong and very tall. Aldrige has a very smooth post game that is similar to the way Duncan would play, not to mention the same calm approach to the game. I don't think Aldrige will be as great as Duncan, but he's the same type of guy that doesn't go crazy and he uses teamwork, fundamentals, and footwork to compete. One question I have about Aldrige is his ability to enforce the paint and step up like a star. One can marvel about his size and athleticism all they want, but what if he turns out like Joe Smith or that one guy out of Arizona. I forget his name. Loren Woods or somebody.

It's hard to tell how good he could become. What was he again? 15 and 10 in college with a selfish backcourt?</div>

Aldridge was 15 ppg, 9.2 rpg and 0.5 assts. He isn't Duncan because Duncan was a sure fire #1. O'Neal would be a good comparison, while not exactly the same, because he came out of HS. It took him a few years to make a name for himself and likely it will take Aldridge. But I don't think Aldridge is a finesse guy by any means. His manner in his interview exudes that.

My take is if Aldridge or someone like Gay is someone you think is going to be a star, then you take a gamble on him by trying to move up. Moving up usually means overpaying, so that one draft pick or player for another doesn't necessary apply.

If you hit a winner, then it makes up for any losses you have. The draft makes that much a difference. Look at past drafts and a KG > Jamison + Joe Smith or T-Mac eventually would be better than a lot of guys combined.

Of course, one can stay at #9 if POB, Simmons, Brewer or that person will make the same difference. It may just take a little longer with these guys to contribute based on we have Monty as coach.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AnimeFANatic:</div><div class="quote_post">With my queston I was trying to show that in this draft Ike would be a lottery pick, and a high valued one. So trading Ike + 9th is like trading two lottery picks to get #1 or 2.</div>
Could be. There's no consensus #1 so I kind of agree with the folks who want to hold onto Ike instead of going for a guy that looks physically good on paper. I think Aldridge has the potential to be a Chris Bosh or maybe even a Kevin Garnett or a Rasheed Wallace, but not as great. I can't say for sure because of his age and not being able to tell the future. All I know is a few of his moves are copied from those type of star nba players. So if he works at it, proves he can hang physically and mentally in the NBA, he could be very very good.

Also the reason I say don't trade Ike yet is because we're not even sure what we have. Now what would be foolish is if we do something like the Bulls did with the Clippers like trading 6'8 Elton Brand for a tall high school power forward they thought was going to be the next Sheed or Kevin Garnett. Instead, we know which team got the best of that trade and we saw how well Brand performed when the Clippers actually built good pieces around him. Maybe Dunleavy should have woken Elgin Baylor up sooner so he could finally build a team instead of young, cheap talent that doesn't fit, play hard, or play defense.

If we're looking at Aldridge, I think he'd be a power forward not a center. If he was a center he'd be similar to how Rasheed Wallace was used on the Pistons or Clif Robinson was used at center in the '04 campaign. We would still need an enforcer in the paint, rather than some finesse dude. In comparing Ike to Aldridge, I think it's a wash. Some may feel Aldridge has a higher ceiling than Ike, but it could be an illusion. Since Ike and Aldridge have advanced offensive games, I say this is a tie because both Ike and Aldridge have very good footwork and midrange shooting. Aldridge is more finesse right now, but that could change if he gets stronger and more aggressive.

In terms of strength I'd have to say Ike is stronger and probably would dominate Aldridge much like Tyrus Thomas did to Aldridge and also how Ike destroyed Channing Frye and Chris Taft (not to mention Rasheed Wallace who was practically embarassed when a rookie he never seen before was lighthing him up). Ike was a little more superior to Aldridge IMO because he could command constant double and triple threats like Andrew Bogut and pass and score like a champ. That's big type of talent that could make a team believe he could be a star instead of just a role player.

Physically, I like Aldridge's height and athleticism, but I like Ike's bulk, natural strength and ability to move quickly in the post. You can win with finesse and quickness, but I think Ike has all that and power.

Mentally, I like Ike's game better. He's got a terrific motor and isn't afraid to be the go-to guy and step up. He doesn't back down and there's never a question about his intensity or being soft or being injury prone. Ike is a Warrior like Duke's Sheldon Williams. Both really tough, classic bangers in the paint. Guys like Channing Frye, Chris Bosh, and Lamarcus Aldridge who are about finesse, you wonder if they have that toughness to be that enforcer. So it's kind of a gamble if they don't turn out like Bosh or maybe half of Kevin Garnett.

Taking individual play out of context: Aldridge was kind of on a funky team that shot quite a bit from the perimeter rather than finding him in the paint, thus his stats were 15/10 instead of 20+/10 college star. It could be based on the way his team ran and that it was not really a true reflection on what kind of go-to scorer Aldridge could have been. Then there's the fact maybe some never really got the impression he was a dominant guy to begin with. He didn't seem like he played big against guys his own size or was capable of drawing all this double/triple team attention like Bogut and Diogu did in college. There's also the fact that he was 20 years old and still growing physically and figuring the game out mentally.

If Aldridge was without a doubt a star player and better on rebounding/blocking shots than Ike, I'd trade Ike + #9 for him. But there is too many unknowns. Ike has already erased a few doubts about playing short against guys like Sheed, Bosh, and few other guys who are supposed to be lengthy all-star type defenders as well as scorers. There's also some unknowns about Ike playing the kind of minutes Murphy regularly gets. I mean it's different when the bench guy starts playing huge minutes and then suddenly you see all the flaws a player has. Right now even with Ike I see a guy that may struggle on D and also may struggle on the glass, but these problems could be related to having to box out for others rather than leave the position to chase after rebounds. I mean this all really depends if we abandon zone defense or how good we can play transition D and individual D. If we can do those things well I think Ike can be similar to how Danny Fortson played for us. I think Fortson led the league in rebounds per game, total rebounds, offensive rebounds or something like that in 2001. I would love to be good defenders in transition so we can run more and try to gather a miss rather than run like nancy boys back on D only to get crushed at the hoop.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">Aldridge was 15 ppg, 9.2 rpg and 0.5 assts. He isn't Duncan because Duncan was a sure fire #1. O'Neal would be a good comparison, while not exactly the same, because he came out of HS. It took him a few years to make a name for himself and likely it will take Aldridge. But I don't think Aldridge is a finesse guy by any means. His manner in his interview exudes that.

Aldridge was 15 ppg, 9.2 rpg and 0.5 assts. He isn't Duncan because Duncan was a sure fire #1. O'Neal would be a good comparison, while not exactly the same, because he came out of HS. It took him a few years to make a name for himself and likely it will take Aldridge. But I don't think Aldridge is a finesse guy by any means. His manner in his interview exudes that.
</div>
Just forget the context of their scoring numbers in college or where they came from and look at their playing styles.

The type of moves Aldridge uses when he actually gets the ball on isolations is like Kevin Garnett (half spin, fadeaway) or like Tim Duncan (baseline post up turn around jumper). His calm demeanor is like Tim Duncan even. I didn't say he was going to be like Tim Duncan or Garnett. He's just got the similar moves and approach to the game as in fundamentals. His upside is really good though to consider him #1 overall in this type of draft.

Also, I'm not sure where Draft City is going with the Jermaine O'neil comparrison. Hell, even Andris Biedrins was compared to J.O. because of similar freak athleticism and raw skills and being a lightweight defensive center. I think Aldridge has better skill level than O'neil in shooting similar to Chris Bosh and he's more of a power forward. Meanwhile, J. O'neil is really a center in a power forwards body with some good isolation moves in the post thx to hard work, training, and natural physical strength/athleticism. He's still shoots below 50% which isn't that good for a volume shooting big man.

I've got tons of tape of these college guys I could convert to wmv if one wants to form an opinion about these guys' styles. I just have to see where I could host or if I got the time to convert all of them. I mean the draft is already in a few days and I'm going to be busy.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">

My take is if Aldridge or someone like Gay is someone you think is going to be a star, then you take a gamble on him by trying to move up. Moving up usually means overpaying, so that one draft pick or player for another doesn't necessary apply.

If you hit a winner, then it makes up for any losses you have. The draft makes that much a difference. Look at past drafts and a KG > Jamison + Joe Smith or T-Mac eventually would be better than a lot of guys combined.

Of course, one can stay at #9 if POB, Simmons, Brewer or that person will make the same difference. It may just take a little longer with these guys to contribute based on we have Monty as coach.</div>
Well we can study the draft all we want, the winner is the guy who gets lucky and has very good hunches about talent. My hunch, is that I just don't believe there's many stars in this draft worth giving up on guys like Ike. I mean if there's a Rashard Lewis (who is going to bite for 4 or more years until he becomes a consistent all-star) or a Kenyon Martin in there, I don't think we're going to get very far soon unless they have other working pieces. I don't get that feeling from any of these guys that they will be franchise centerpieces like the way Jason Kidd was or the way Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett was. Not every draft has that type of guy.

I'll say one thing: I would trade any one of our euros for Aldridge or Gay though or Chris Taft. I would hold onto Ike (unique to us because of his footwork and other intangibles off the ball) and Ellis (already knows how to score in advanced ways and has above average floor awareness meaning he has a chance to be a very good playmaking combo guard). Jrich I'd hold onto. Baron Davis, I'd try to find the right deals before he screws up and hurts himself or wants out in a similar way he demonstrated to New Orleans. I wouldn't trade Baron Davis, but explore options so we're not stuck with him and his ego. Murphy I would trade as I think he's our best betting chip. Hopefully it would get us a good center or maybe undo a bad deal we have going.

 

Long story short from my last two posts: Find the right combo of high ceiling + attitude + guys who can contribute now or else trade the pick for somebody that can add to the team and help the young core along.

Otherwise we'll have a guy like Jrich at the mid lottery who will take 3-4 years to really develop into a shooting guard and by that time we've overpaid a lot of people and repeated the whole cycle of finding additional players to be instant homerun players when they're not. Also we need to prioritize the development of young guys. Trying to develop Dunleavy, Jrich, Murphy, Pietrus, Biedrins at the same time and give them major minutes was just a huge mess IMO. I say we pick a few really strong and balanced candidates from the draft and just surround them with guys who can actually play both ends of the court. This way if Dunleavy isn't pulling his weight on offense or Murphy isn't doing the things a power forward should do on defense or passing the ball, or Pietrus isn't learning, or Biedrins isn't ready, you got options not to play them. But I'd say just cut down on the number of guys to worry about developing in the first place. Get reliable veteran guys and few exciting players like Jrich and Ike from the draft. Forget the rest unless we're using them for trade purposes. We just can't keep everybody and build a team full of nothing but draft picks when all these draftees play so differently.

I guess that was hard in our case because Mullin was prepared to go down with the ship over a weak draftee like Dunleavy (who plays the right way fundamentally, but just can't play very well)... which was also one of the reasons Mullin didn't like Muss because he disagreed with some of the players chosen for the team and their contributions. The other thing is that Mullin doesn't seem to be really building a team, but a collection pool. He's building a collection of talent so we find a trade for somebody else's castoffs and build from there. I mean isn't that what it seems like? A team that only does bad enough to land mid lottery, isn't going to find a franchise player unless they bet on the really unproven high school guy or a really underrated guy. Then you'd steal need a ton of veterans to help him along instead of a bunch of other rookies who also don't know the game that well. I'm adamant that if our starters were good enough to close out games and we didn't have to worry about our bench being so noobish, we could have won a few more games. The bad thing is if we bet on a few rookies that weren't stars, the franchise also ain't going anywhere with just vets.

I guess with that said, I'd rather pass on this entire draft because I feel like we're going to land another Biedrins, a Pietrus, or a Dunleavy. We can wait, but I don't even know if the upside will be all that great or if fans are patient enough...

I'm only patient with Biedrins or Pietrus to a certain extent because Mullin needs to figure out what kind of salary he is going to commit between all these draftees. I'd hate to see him overpay more guys based on potential that never comes... when Ike or Ellis could suddenly explode in a similar fashion to what Gilbert Arenas showed. What we need are complete nba players who can play their positions more or less the way their role was intended (on both ends of the floor, esp personal defense, shooting, and passing the ball).