I just don't see how teams are willing to make such a friggin fuss about moving up or down a few slots in this year's draft. I mean, if you're sitting at #4 and there's LeBron James at #1, okay then offer you pick with a starter to get the King of Crunchtime. But, as it is, why in the world would the Warriors give up their pick and Ike Diogu to move up? I wouldn't do that even if I got the #1 pick in this draft. Are you telling me that there's that big a separation betwen the top ten players here? Bargiani could be a stud, but so could Morrison, Aldridge, Thomas, Roy, Williams (both prospects), Gay, O'Bryant, Foye... Look at it this way: if you throw Ike Diogu into this draft, he could go #1 to some teams. So WTF?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">Good post CR2. Ike does have an edge over Aldridge with his intensity and toughness as well as strength and perhaps ability to finish close to the basket. Aldridge is almost purely a finesse big man, which isn't necessarily a bad thing since guys like KG, Bosh, and Rasheed Wallace are mostly finesse players but then you get guys like Joe Smith who don't have the will (or perhaps the body type) to play inside and bang with the 250+ lb. physical inside players. Ike definitely has the body and strength to play inside, he outweighs Aldridge by 20 pounds despite being almost 4 inches shorter (w/o shoes) and Ike bench pressed the 185 lbs. from the pre-draft camp 21 times while Aldridge only benched it 8 times. Realistically, I think Aldridge will turn out to be a Rasheed Wallace type player in that he won't be an elite big man or a first option on a contending team but he could be a fringe all-star and a very good second scorer or a co-first option alongside an all-star calibur guard. Ike will also probably be a second or third option type of player but maybe not be an all-star calibur player. At least we know that Ike can score with the athletic 7 footers inside, we don't know for sure if Aldridge can do that. Aldridge has a good turnaround mid-range jumper out of the post and a decent hook shot that is developing; similar to a KG type of player but when you can only rely on those types of shots you're going to have off shooting nights or tough defenders being able to shut you down. Aldridge may not be able to get position close to the rim and find a way to muscle the ball in when his turnaround shot isn't falling, then where will he go? Ike (as well as guys like Duncan and Brand) can establish position near the rim and either muscle their way to the hoop or use a finesse move further from the rim. Basically what I'm getting at is that Aldridge isn't a sure thing to become better than Ike, it would be a risky move to trade your only inside presence and potential 17/9 starter for a raw young big man in a weak draft who is only really considered to be a top pick because of their height. If Aldridge were a KG type of prospect he would be the consensus #1 pick in this draft but hes more projected to be a fringe all-star type of player but not a sure tihng. If the opportunity to trade Ike and our 9 pick for Aldridge came up I tihnk Mullin would have to consider it but it could end up being a move that could get a GM fired. Theres some guys we can get at 9 who are high potential prospects but using the 9th pick on them in a weak draft when we have no room for immediate impact rookies won't potentially set the franchise another decade. I'd rather keep Ike and take a POB, Cedric Simmons or Saer Sene with the 9 pick but trading Ike with the 9 for Aldridge wouldn't be a bad move if Mullin sees something in Aldridge that he likes.</div> I agree on a lot of points. I would definitely love Aldridge if we didn't have to give up anything On paper, we could play the high-low game with our big men and just take whatever mismatch there is (if either one can shoot and score inside like how Duncan and David Robinson operated in tandem). We could also have a motion play where the point guard holds the ball, the 4 and the 2 guard can come to the outside to set screens for the 5. This is supposed to draw the smaller mismatch so that the 5 can break awayand receive the lob pass over a smaller player for the dunk. If that doesn't work the point guard can do something himself or look for offense for the 4 and the 2 guard (if they can get open). Or they can just run another play if they can set it up fast enough and execute so the 24 shot clock isn't over. This is also why guys shouldn't walk the ball up like everything is cool...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">I just don't see how teams are willing to make such a friggin fuss about moving up or down a few slots in this year's draft. I mean, if you're sitting at #4 and there's LeBron James at #1, okay then offer you pick with a starter to get the King of Crunchtime. But, as it is, why in the world would the Warriors give up their pick and Ike Diogu to move up? I wouldn't do that even if I got the #1 pick in this draft. Are you telling me that there's that big a separation betwen the top ten players here? Bargiani could be a stud, but so could Morrison, Aldridge, Thomas, Roy, Williams (both prospects), Gay, O'Bryant, Foye... Look at it this way: if you throw Ike Diogu into this draft, he could go #1 to some teams. So WTF?</div> So WTF how do you know how high Ike would go this year? Let alone being #1. That is RIDICULOUS. Last year, Ike wasn't even invited to the Green Room. Being picked at #9 was HIGH for him. Let's not kid ourselves. Ike isn't going to be an all-star like Elton Brand. Ike is short and doesn't jump that high. He hasn't shown that he could be a good rebounder. I saw him live during his best performance against the Pistons last season. While it was a noteworthy performance he still got schooled in the 4Q on defense and the Warriors ended up losing the game. Sheed just suckered him on that one play. Other times, Ike didn't play enough to show what he could do. I went and saw him against Shaq (his second game at center). He was overmatched. It was embarassing. As for the rest of the times, it was frustrating watching him. He didn't get continuous PT. I'm not sure Monty knew what he was doing because he said that he would not experiment with Ike at center anymore after he lost that starting job. Yet, he kept playing Ike at center when Ike would come in off the bench. While Ike does have some special moves down low, he does get his shots blocked. I'll admit Monty didn't use him correctly (more like he abused Ike), but Ike did not show me enough to warrant him ever becoming an all-star. For chrissakes, Ike didn't even get the ball down low from Baron or Monty didn't run any iso's for him. That just defeats the purpose of having an Ike. And let's talk about Ike and Murphy. He can't even beat Murphy. Murphy isn't a great player, but he can still whip Ike. If both of those guys are on the team next season, guess who Monty is going to start? That's right -- Murphy And Ike will rot on the bench. So my position is why not consider trading Ike if you can get a guy with more upside like LaMarcus or Rudy Gay? I might do it for Adam Morrison or Brandon Roy. Again I ask you how high do you think Ike would go in this draft? He certainly wouldn't go very high if he put up what he did in the NBA. As for teams trying to trade up, there are plenty of teams trying to do so. It has been described as a traffic jam because of the number and so the draft is still unsettled. Houston is one example of a team willing to trade up for Brandon Roy. Roy and T-Mac would make a nasty backcourt for Houston. I think there is one potential all-star and that is Rudy Gay. LaMarcus, Morrison and even Roy need to get acclimated to the NBA. But they should be able to play some minutes next season and make an impact. I wouldn't be surprised if Roy ended up becoming a stud, too.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">So WTF how do you know how high Ike would go this year? Let alone being #1. That is RIDICULOUS.....I think there is one potential all-star and that is Rudy Gay. LaMarcus, Morrison and even Roy need to get acclimated to the NBA. But they should be able to play some minutes next season and make an impact. I wouldn't be surprised if Roy ended up becoming a stud, too.</div> My point is that, due to a combination of factors including the new highshool exemption rules and the lack of a superstar-type player, this "crop" of draftees is all pretty mediocre. The top ten players in the draft are all pretty much within bumping shoulders of eachother. It's always the case that you can find a star in the late first round or even second round. But this year, what's more evident is that you can find a player at those spots that could very well turn out better than the #1 pick. When LeBron was going #1, there was no question. When Reggie Bush was going #1, there was no.. well, he is still a once-a-decade type franchise changer. But this year, who knows who will "fall" to #9? The way it's shaking, any of the top 5 picks could actually fall to #9. Further, is there really that type of game-changer that is worth trading up for, especially when he may fall to you anyway, and also especially when he has more or less the same potential upside as the other "top" choices? My point about Ike isn't that he's a "franchise" star and hands-down-worthy of the number 1 pick. When I said he could potentially go #1 to some teams if he were drafted this year, what I mean is that, more or less, Ike is at the same talent level and potential level that the top "group" of picks is at. Morrison, Gay, Aldridge, Thomas, Roy -- they all have good potential but they're not head and shoulders above Ike. If he were in this draft he'd be right in the mix at the top, IMO, and depending on what team had the pick he could very well go #1. IMO there's no significant difference between having the 6th or the 9th pick in this draft, at least no difference significant enough to swap picks and give up one of your contributing prospects. I would hardly consider trading even Ike alone to move up, let alone the pick and Ike to move up. IMO That's like just giving the pick away for free. And THATS rediculous.
I agree with AlleyOop here. We picked Ike to help us in the post. And to get rid of him so easily along with our 9th pick to get the #1 pick in a mediorce lottery is not worth it. I want to keep Ike and add another low-post player/swingman with the 9th pick.
I agree with AlleyOop. Ike still hasn't gotten a chance to show all the things he can do yet. He does a lot of things very well and he does it all with strength, length, great footwork, and brains. Some teams even tried to double him this year. I don't know any other Warriors big dude that gets doubled. If Ike is big enough to play small, who cares if he's small. It's about playing the game better than your matchup, making adjustments, and having a mismatch in your favor. With Ike it's his ability to shoot from far, be strong in the post, and be quick in the post or off the drive. It's a lot better than a guy who is neither strong, quick, or finesse. I mean if we picked up a raw power forward he better have the upside of Amare Stoudamire because he's incredibly strong and he's good with his spin moves and ability to get open. Ike is a kind of slower, smaller version of him in a way. REREM can back me up on that. There are some similarities in their games if one wasn't just watching the alley-oop dunks. One for instance is having a good midrange game (can't score everything up close unless your name is Shaq), the other is bringing a good level of power mixed in with quickness, another is being able to put the ball on the floor, and the other is just showing the aggressiveness to try and dominate the painted area. These are all things the power forward should do. He should be an enforcer, an intimidator a guy that possesses some skills a small forward would and those of a center. I don't know if Ike is that scary, but he's proven he can be effective on offense even when not scoring the ball. Even announcer Jim Barnett would drop his Dunleavy love and point this out. There's a lot of tricks these guys can do, it's just that Ike will never really be a high flyer. He can still alley oop dunk though. He's pretty long that he doesn't have to jump higher than Biedrins or Jrich. This is also why I don't mind Sheldon Williams being our pick if we actually got him (I don't mind him because he's got really good big man skills and he's not a stiff as people make him out to be). I don't think he's that much different from a guy like Sean May or somebody else that can be really solid inside player on D or O. We just need guys who can play unless people automatically know who the next Kevin Garnett or Amare Stoudamire is. Had we picked all the raw guys with high potential we'd wind up with guys like Ndudi Ebi, Deshawn Stevenson, or Kwame Brown or who knows what. A project ain't a sure thing so there needs to be some balance of playing now at a young age and the upside to grow even better.
Looks like I'm in the minority of ONE here in trading Ike to move up in THIS draft. I would like a chance to further explain my position. While I agree this is a shallow draft, it does not mean that one can take a player at #25 and get one just as good at #5. To me, what it means is IF someone does their HOMEWORK, then they could find a diamond in the rough player who can make an impact for their team as much as someone who picked someone at #5. I don't believe you just "luck" into a player. Well, sometimes you do, like a player you want falling, but most of the time it takes a lot of time, travel and work to find the players that you want. Then, it's a matter of getting them in the draft. Mullin and staff has been very good at doing it the past two years, so I don't expect any different this year. My take was if there is someone you really like and it takes moving up to #2 or #4 to do it, then why not trade someone like Ike + #9 to move up. Second, since the draft is weaker this year I thought it would be easier to trade up. This appears to be the case as the flurry of trades involve the top picks as well as the lower picks. Thus, the uncertainty of making up a mock draft right now. Usually, there isn't much action for the top picks as teams want too much for their picks. After all, one could pick the next Michael Jordan or Larry Bird (No I'm not saying that is the case with this draft!). Next year, with several impact players and Greg Oden, it will be much harder to get a team's lotto pick. Third, again this goes back to one doing their homework. There should be one pick or two where an impact potential all-star player is there. Now I'm not sure who that is (Gay and Roy are my guesses), but if that player is there, then I think one gambles and tries to move up. Fourth, I do agree that one can get someone who makes an impact with the #9 pick. That is a valid argument. Thus, if you pair Ike with a Ronnie Brewer for example, you could have a very productive draft. OTOH, if you take Patrick O'Bryant and he turns out to be another Michael Olowokandi, then you have just added to your teams woes. But I digress. If Mullin and staff have done their homework, then they should be able to get a solid player who makes an impact on the team. I just wanted to clarify my position and clear the air on this.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">My point is that, due to a combination of factors including the new highshool exemption rules and the lack of a superstar-type player, this "crop" of draftees is all pretty mediocre. The top ten players in the draft are all pretty much within bumping shoulders of eachother. </div> This is an understated point. Also, there was a worry of an age limit that brought a ton of younger European players into the draft as well. Very few international players pulled their names whereas in past years they had. This draft is all around weak. It's going to be the 1-year hickup in talent because next year you'll see a large crop of highschoolers and international players get their mandatory year in college in and come out. Now I don't know about Ike being #1 overall, but he surely would be top 10. I've been a proponent of trading down for Splitter all along. He's the underrated guy in this draft with a ton of upside, plus moving the #9 pick will let us at least dump one of the terrible contracts which is better than where we started.
Name some names. Are you saying these guys will be out of the league in five years or sooner? Bargnani, Sene, Rondo, Sefolosha, Sergio Rodriguez, etc.? http://www.nba.com/draft2006/internationals_060626.html
If there's no franchise player up there why remove a player we need? I mean do homework all we want, it's not going to tell who in the future is going to be a major star. It's hard to tell now with guys working out players in 2 vs. 2 and 1 vs. 1 drills. I mean Rudy Gay vs. Adam Morrison? What kind of test is that?
It is really strange. I get excited about the draft, then when it is over i realize it will be March before i will get to see these players play. Look at the Warriors and how both Monty and Muss handled our young player. Pietrus still gets his minutes slashed in favor of the absolutely useless one Fisher Biedrins been here two years still barely sees the floor because the quick hook is always there. Ellis - should have been getting 30 + minutes after the all star break. Ike - it was like Monty was playing some kind of mind game with him So, i don't know why i get excited, be it O'Bryant or be it Gay they will be sitting and watching 2/3's of the season while most other teams will give their draft picks good run. Another reason to fire Monty and get someone who has a clue how to use talent. But i have resigned myself to another season of watching Fisher kill us with 35 minutes a game of ineptitude while Ellis should be blossoming. Foyle getting the start and primary minutes along with Murph while Ike and Biedrins whither away. This is why i want to see a Terry Porter or Mario Elie a young guy with discipline and respect of the players. I loved it when i saw Avery Johnson bench Dampier and his big contract mid season because he was not performing... and I, for the life of me, could not understand when it was obvious at the beginning of the season when Aaron Miles even out played Fisher, that Fisher should not be getting any minutes. I think we bring a coach that is not afraid to make bold statements like benching a star, starting young guys and not catering to vets is the only way to go. But we are stuck with another wasted season, Fisher an foyle getting minutes and we are back at the 9th pick in 2007
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">If there's no franchise player up there why remove a player we need? I mean do homework all we want, it's not going to tell who in the future is going to be a major star. It's hard to tell now with guys working out players in 2 vs. 2 and 1 vs. 1 drills. I mean Rudy Gay vs. Adam Morrison? What kind of test is that?</div> Well, you have to evaluate who you can get at #9 and Ike vs. getting Aldridge or Bargnani. I'm not sure about franchise player in this year's crop, but you could get a potential all-star. Second, I think you're missing the point about the workouts. All the work you did to scout a player is the major piece. As Mullin said, the workout and interview (assume he's including the measurements and combines) is the final evaluation process. He said sometimes you glean something that could affect your final decision. But the legwork was already done. What's interesting is I may not see something you see and vice versa. If you want to talk about "What kind of test is that?" then look at what Scott Skiles did to LaMarcus. Aldridge and the Bulls management sat down for dinner and Skiles just stared at him for 10 minutes or so and didn't say a word. Afterwards, he said it was some kind of test. That's weird in a funny, creepy way.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CohanHater:</div><div class="quote_post">I've been a proponent of trading down for Splitter all along. He's the underrated guy in this draft with a ton of upside, plus moving the #9 pick will let us at least dump one of the terrible contracts which is better than where we started.</div> Now we're talking. Why not move down and take somebody else's prospect or talent along with their pick? I'll guaruntee you all of the GS trade rumors out there involve Mullin trading down or out of this draft, not up. Most likely he's looking for some sucker to swallow Foyle, Fisher or Murphy along with the #9 pick.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting boogielew:</div><div class="quote_post">This is why i want to see a Terry Porter or Mario Elie a young guy with discipline and respect of the players. I loved it when i saw Avery Johnson bench Dampier and his big contract mid season because he was not performing... and I, for the life of me, could not understand when it was obvious at the beginning of the season when Aaron Miles even out played Fisher, that Fisher should not be getting any minutes. I think we bring a coach that is not afraid to make bold statements like benching a star, starting young guys and not catering to vets is the only way to go.</div> I completely agree. Can anyone say.... Mussleman? (edit: well, he didn't have the respect of a proven player, but he'd still bench your ass in a heartbeat!)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">Aldridge and the Bulls management sat down for dinner and Skiles just stared at him for 10 minutes or so and didn't say a word. Afterwards, he said it was some kind of test. That's weird in a funny, creepy way. </div> I'm suprised Skiles didn't drag Aldridge into the boxing ring and make him go a few rounds.
Scott Skiles: ... Lamarcus Aldridge: Wow, this is some good steak ain't it, Coach? Scott Skiles: ... Lamarcus Aldridge: Uhhh... you feeling all right, Sir? Scott Skiles: ... Lamarcus Aldridge: Okay... (weirdo). Scott Skiles: I heard that you little #$^*&@!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting boogielew:</div><div class="quote_post">It is really strange. I get excited about the draft, then when it is over i realize it will be March before i will get to see these players play. Look at the Warriors and how both Monty and Muss handled our young player. Pietrus still gets his minutes slashed in favor of the absolutely useless one Fisher Biedrins been here two years still barely sees the floor because the quick hook is always there. Ellis - should have been getting 30 + minutes after the all star break. Ike - it was like Monty was playing some kind of mind game with him So, i don't know why i get excited, be it O'Bryant or be it Gay they will be sitting and watching 2/3's of the season while most other teams will give their draft picks good run. Another reason to fire Monty and get someone who has a clue how to use talent. But i have resigned myself to another season of watching Fisher kill us with 35 minutes a game of ineptitude while Ellis should be blossoming. Foyle getting the start and primary minutes along with Murph while Ike and Biedrins whither away. This is why i want to see a Terry Porter or Mario Elie a young guy with discipline and respect of the players. I loved it when i saw Avery Johnson bench Dampier and his big contract mid season because he was not performing... and I, for the life of me, could not understand when it was obvious at the beginning of the season when Aaron Miles even out played Fisher, that Fisher should not be getting any minutes. I think we bring a coach that is not afraid to make bold statements like benching a star, starting young guys and not catering to vets is the only way to go. But we are stuck with another wasted season, Fisher an foyle getting minutes and we are back at the 9th pick in 2007</div> Actually, I'm probably in the minority here, but I prefer if a rookie learns at a steady pace and isn't forced into having to win games for us. I want them to be vetted and get experience by observing. I just want them to take it easy their freshman year like there's no pressure or stress and fear of losing. We don't want to put these guys in a losing situation where they have to find chemistry right away while learning how to play within themselves and where to move on the floor to get open. If they play a little that's fine and they can also observe how crappy our current vets play. That observation teaches rookies that if you don't play defense or smart ball, you're going to lose. It also teaches rookies that if you don't play well the fans will turn on you. It also teaches rookies that if they play well, they can eventually increase their minutes, demand a lot of money to stay or they can leave the Warriors losing tradition and become a star somewhere else...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">I completely agree. Can anyone say.... Mussleman? (edit: well, he didn't have the respect of a proven player, but he'd still bench your ass in a heartbeat!)</div> Well, he did bench Arenas and Richardson when they didn't perform. So, I think it's darn close. I don't know about this year's draft. I mean, certainly players like Bargnani, Thomas, Aldridge have tons of upside, but they seem like they also can be Swift or Skita as well. And, this year's draft lacks sure thing and has tons of so-so players. So in few years 9th pick can be as good as 2nd pick. In addition, while I do agree that Diogu's upside seems limited, he will be in the league for long time. Besides, if he enters this year's draft, he could have been anywhere from 1st to 9th. I mean, Diogu was compared to Brand, but S. Williams, who went Duke and has similar size as Brand never received Brand comparision. So, I think that tells something about this year's draft and 1st tier talent...
If we benched everyone that didn't perform well on the Warriors, we'd have a maximum of two guys on the court at one time and people falling off the sides of the bench.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nrw4KBYvZI Ike Diogu mix. Do you guys really want to get rid of him? I think he will be very valuable next season if he gets consistent minutes and a good role (no C damnit!)
