<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post"> But that's the problem, ur overexaggerating Hayes's defense while underestimating Howard's proven talent. Hayes has shown he can be a good defender in spurts, but in a situation where he's forced to play 20-30 mins against a superstar, talent is going to prevail.</div> Hayes didn't just play well in a few games. In the vast majority of the games in which Chuck played last season, the Rockets outscored the opponent with him on the court (26 times Rockets scored more, only 11 times the opponent scored more). And in the vast majority of games where Juwan played, the opponent outscored the Rockets with Juwan on the court (27 times the Rockets scored more, a whopping 52 times the opponent scored more). These are undeniable facts. If Howard is such a better player, and if his "talent" means so much, why did the Rockets play so much better with Hayes on the court last season? The Rockets were +9.1 points per 100poss with Hayes on the court. The Rockets were -6.0 points poer 100poss with Howard on the court. Beyond the obvious team impact, Hayes put up much better individual numbers than Juwan. Just look at the PER of Rockets players last season. Hayes did that as a rookie who joined the team in the middle of the season. That's a very impressive accomplishment, and you're entirely to quick to dismiss it simply because he doesn't have a jump shot and he's undersized. You can be a very valuable player without those assets, and conversely you can be a poor player with those assets. Let's be serious, Juwan Howard has pretty much been a loser everywhere he's gone. Howard had a decent stretch, statistically, in January. But his numbers were inflated because he played so many minutes per game, and additionally he wasn't particularly efficient getting those numbers either. And how many of those games did we actually win, anyhow? Hayes has been an intangibles guy and a winner at every stage -- college, development league, and now the NBA. Hayes is younger, more effective, and has more room to grow. And on top of it all, he flat out produces more statistically. To me, it's a no brainer that his minutes should go up. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If we're smart, we should pursue Gooden. But if we can't land him, Howard is the smartest thing at PF. There is no way a undersized "garbage player" with absolutley NO OFFENSIVE game and a somewhat good defense is gonna work in the Western Conference. We need to upgrade not downgrade</div> If Hayes is such an offensive liability, how is it that the Rockets scored +2.8 points per 100poss more with him on the court versus off the court? And how is it that the Rockets were -7.3 points per 100poss offensively with Howard on the court versus off the court, if Howard is such a talented, "money" offensive player? Overall, the Rockets scored 105.3 points per 100poss with Hayes on the court, and only scored 100.3 points per 100poss with Howard on the court. Defensively, the difference is even more lopsided. We were 10.1 points per 100poss better defensively with Hayes on the court versus off the court. We were 3.7 points per 100poss worse defensively with Howard on the court versus off the court. Overall, the Rockets gave up only 96.2 points per 100poss when Hayes was in the game, while they gave up 106.3 points per 100poss with Howard in there! Rebounds, steals, and blocks are heavily in Hayes's favor. Plus, Hayes was a far more efficient offensive player than Howard. All the objective evidence from last season is squarely in Hayes's favor.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes didn't just play well in a few games. In the vast majority of the games in which Chuck played last season, the Rockets outscored the opponent with him on the court (26 times Rockets scored more, only 11 times the opponent scored more). And in the vast majority of games where Juwan played, the opponent outscored the Rockets with Juwan on the court (27 times the Rockets scored more, a whopping 52 times the opponent scored more). These are undeniable facts. If Howard is such a better player, and if his "talent" means so much, why did the Rockets play so much better with Hayes on the court last season? The Rockets were +9.1 points per 100poss with Hayes on the court. The Rockets were -6.0 points poer 100poss with Howard on the court.</div> I see u like to throw stats out there, but unfortunatley ur leaving out a few factors. If I'm not mistaken Hayes played over 20mins in only 13 games. His role on the team was significantly lesser than Howard's. Howard played more minutes and has alot more responsibilities being he's the better player. It's similar to Ryan Bowen a few years back. We were undefeated in a short stretch with Ryan Bowen starting PF (When Howard got hurt), but when the playoffs came his lack of offense hurt us tremendously. Also keep in my mind that Hayes had his best games with most of our team injured. However with all of our team coming back healthy, Howard is the OBVIOUS man for the starting job. His experience and ability to defend and consistently hit open shots is crucial to our success. Starting another "Ryan Bowen type garbage" and playing him big minutes would be disasterous. The organization already screwed up the draft, Rocket fans should pray they don't make an even dumber mistake and start Chuck Hayes. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Let's be serious, Juwan Howard has pretty much been a loser everywhere he's gone. Howard had a decent stretch, statistically, in January. But his numbers were inflated because he played so many minutes per game, and additionally he wasn't particularly efficient getting those numbers either. And how many of those games did we actually win, anyhow?</div> I don't buy that notion that Howard has been a loser his whole career. Matter fact, I'd say he's been the ultimate professional and carried a winning attitude most his career. He prolly ain't the best solution right now, but he's proven he can atleast play solid along side Tmac & Yao. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes has been an intangibles guy and a winner at every stage -- college, development league, and now the NBA. Hayes is younger, more effective, and has more room to grow. And on top of it all, he flat out produces more statistically. To me, it's a no brainer that his minutes should go up.</div> College? Developmental league? Who the hell cares! Nobody cares about what somebody has done in a league with lesser competition. In that case, Howard was a proven winner in college also. That means nothing at this point. Room to grow? Who, Chuck Hayes? Grow into what, a allstar player? Heck No! Chuck Hayes will always be what he is, a hustle player who plays good in spurts. If you believe he'll ever be a major contributor on a championship caliber team, ur sadly mistaken my friend. Ur talking about somebody who might not even be on the roster by this time next year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post"> His experience and ability to defend and consistently hit open shots is crucial to our success. </div> Uh huh. Let's look at how crucial he's been to our success the last two seasons: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>HouOppNet<br/>2005<br/>On93.792.5+1.2<br/>Off95.088.9+6.0<br/>Net-1.3+3.6-4.9<br/>2006<br/>On87.891.4-3.5<br/>Off92.788.6+4.1<br/>Net-4.9+2.8-7.7<br/><br/>Total<br/>On90.191.8-1.7<br/>Off94.188.8+5.3<br/>Net-4.1+3.0-7.1<br/></div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't buy that notion that Howard has been a loser his whole career. Matter fact, I'd say he's been the ultimate professional and carried a winning attitude most his career. He prolly ain't the best solution right now, but he's proven he can atleast play solid along side Tmac & Yao. </div> Being a professional and having a good attitude doesn't make you a winner. I'm not talking about sportsmanship. Does he play solid alongside Tmac and Yao? Just look at the 2006 and 2005 player pairs data. Of course, you are quite wrong. <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>YaoMcGrady<br/>2005<br/>w/ Howard+0.5+2.1<br/>w/o Howard+4.1+6.2<br/>Net-3.6-4.1<br/><br/>2006<br/>w/ Howard-2.9-0.3<br/>w/o Howard+11.0+6.1<br/>Net-13.8-6.4<br/></div> Each of the last 2 years, Howard's presence along with either of our 2 superstars has not helped, to put it mildly. The past season, it's even more obvious. When McGrady or Yao were in the game and Howard wasn't, our point differential was great. Put Howard in, and the team nosedives. No player getting significant minutes has had such a horrendous +/- the past two seasons. The notion that Juwan Howard is a great fit with our team is purely a myth. Zero evidence to support it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">College? Developmental league? Who the hell cares! Nobody cares about what somebody has done in a league with lesser competition.</div> On what basis do you think players get drafted? Anyways, I'm the one focusing on what Chuck Hayes and Juwan Howard did last season. You're only focusing on reputation and playing time, without actually citing anything specific about their performance to back up your assertions. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In that case, Howard was a proven winner in college also. That means nothing at this point. Room to grow? Who, Chuck Hayes? Grow into what, a allstar player? Heck No!</div> He doesn't need to grow into an allstar player to be a better option than Juwan Howard. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Chuck Hayes will always be what he is, a hustle player who plays good in spurts. If you believe he'll ever be a major contributor on a championship caliber team, ur sadly mistaken my friend. Ur talking about somebody who might not even be on the roster by this time next year.</div> This is what people in the Rockets organization think of him (from the Houston Chronicle): <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Daryl Morey:</div><div class="quote_post"> On Thursday, 13 seconds into his second summer league experience, Hayes stole a pass, prompting Rockets assistant general manager Daryl Morey to say: "He'll be doing a lot of that this season." </div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tom Thibodeau:</div><div class="quote_post"> "His attitude and his approach to the game are exactly what you want," Rockets assistant head coach and summer league coach Tom Thibodeau said. "From the day the season ended, he's been coming in every day, getting in shape. He's one of those guys that makes everyone on the floor better, gives your team mental toughness, fight. He has terrific competitive spirit. He sets a great screen; he gets to every loose ball. When the ball is up in the air, he's in there and gets more than his share. It's like having a coach out on the floor."</div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Being a professional and having a good attitude doesn't make you a winner. I'm not talking about sportsmanship.</div> Sportsmanship is a part of winning.......You win a championship if you don't have players that are willing to sacrifice. Positive energy, good locker room guy, and hits open jumpers. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> Yao McGrady 2005 w/ Howard +0.5 +2.1 w/o Howard +4.1 +6.2 Net -3.6 -4.1 2006 w/ Howard -2.9 -0.3 w/o Howard +11.0 +6.1 Net -13.8 -6.4 [/code] </div> Obcourse the star players are going to suffer with a 3rd scoring option. But I would reference you to when we were playing our best string of basketball in the 05 regular season. We were on our verge to 50 wins, and Howard was playing great up until he got hurt. If we had him in the playoffs, it's no question in my mind that we win that series. Thats an indication of how important he could be to this team. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">The notion that Juwan Howard is a great fit with our team is purely a myth. Zero evidence to support it.</div> The notion that a 6'6 garbage player should start over a proven vet is ridiculous. You obviously have lost all touch with reality. Look no further than the teams in our division. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">On what basis do you think players get drafted? </div> And.......what does that have to do with the NBA? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Anyways, I'm the one focusing on what Chuck Hayes and Juwan Howard did last season. You're only focusing on reputation and playing time, without actually citing anything specific about their performance to back up your assertions. </div> But you can't judge because Hayes didn't play nearly enough games or minutes to make fair comparison. That's the element you seem to leave out. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">This is what people in the Rockets organization think of him (from the Houston Chronicle):</div> Can you post what they said about Howard too
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Sportsmanship is a part of winning.......You win a championship if you don't have players that are willing to sacrifice. Positive energy, good locker room guy, and hits open jumpers.</div> Being a good locker room guy is useful, but performance on the court is overwhelmingly more important. Juwan Howard has not performed well. When all a player does is attempt open 15-foot jumpers on offense, and he can't even hit those at a 50% clip, there simply is not that much value to it. Juwan doesn't get to the free throw line, he doesn't hit threes, and he doesn't finish well around the basket. There just isn't too much value in a 45% 2-point jumper shooter. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Obcourse the star players are going to suffer with a 3rd scoring option.</div> You misread the data. It's not the star players who suffered, it was the team that did worse when Juwan was paired with Yao/Tracy (the numbers refer to points scored minus points allowed by the team). And significantly worse this past season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But I would reference you to when we were playing our best string of basketball in the 05 regular season. We were on our verge to 50 wins, and Howard was playing great up until he got hurt. If we had him in the playoffs, it's no question in my mind that we win that series. Thats an indication of how important he could be to this team.</div> In the 19 games prior to the one in which Howard was injured (against GS), the Rockets were 13-6. Pretty good. In the all the games after that game till the end of the regular season, the Rockets were ... 13-6. Doesn't seem like they missed him too much. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The notion that a 6'6 garbage player should start over a proven vet is ridiculous. You obviously have lost all touch with reality. Look no further than the teams in our division. </div> The only thing Juwan Howard has proven the last couple years is that he's not a starting-caliber player anymore. Chuck Hayes, in a reserve role last season, was very good. He put up strong per-minute numbers (far better than Juwan), and the Rockets had a much better point-differential with him on the court than with him off the court. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And.......what does that have to do with the NBA?</div> What does the NBA draft have to do with the NBA? NBA teams obviously do care what players do in other leagues, because they draft them and often sign them based on that. No need to explain this obvious point further. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But you can't judge because Hayes didn't play nearly enough games or minutes to make fair comparison. That's the element you seem to leave out. </div> We're both judging, but I'm the one being open-minded. I said I'd like to see what Hayes can do in the starting role. I've explained in detail my reasons. I never said, definitively, that he will excel in such a role. I said I'd like to see him given a chance to show what he can do, because Howard has shown himself to be incapable of playing the starting role effectively. You, on the other hand, are the one making the unwavering assertions (Hayes is a garbage player and will never be starter-quality). It's hypocritical to say, on one hand, I shouldn't judge, and then make much stronger (and quite baseless) judgements yourself. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Can you post what they said about Howard too</div> They didn't mention Howard in the article. They've said all along that Howard is a professional, has a good attitude, and comes to play every day. Swell. But clearly, they think much higher of Chuck Hayes than you. They consider him a special player with a high basketball IQ. A "coach on the floor", which is an unbelievable compliment for a so called "garbage" rookie who'll never amount to anything.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">In the 19 games prior to the one in which Howard was injured (against GS), the Rockets were 13-6. Pretty good. In the all the games after that game till the end of the regular season, the Rockets were ... 13-6. Doesn't seem like they missed him too much</div> They were playing the best ball in 2yrs in that stretch, that's with a full compliment of players. My point is, that's proof that we can win with Howard starting. Without Tmac or Yao, he might not be as effective. But with both of our stars, Howard can be effective in a limited role. I actually think his defense is better than your acknowledging too. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">The only thing Juwan Howard has proven the last couple years is that he's not a starting-caliber player anymore. Chuck Hayes, in a reserve role last season, was very good. He put up strong per-minute numbers (far better than Juwan), and the Rockets had a much better point-differential with him on the court than with him off the court.</div> Hayes's numbers are better per-minute because the guy didn't play that many minutes. Our record with Ryan Bowen starting is great, does that mean he should start? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">We're both judging, but I'm the one being open-minded. I said I'd like to see what Hayes can do in the starting role. I've explained in detail my reasons. I never said, definitively, that he will excel in such a role. I said I'd like to see him given a chance to show what he can do, because Howard has shown himself to be incapable of playing the starting role effectively.</div> Being open minded is one thing, but convincing me that Chuck Hayes should start on a team that's trying to win a championship is delusional. We've already had similar players in Clarence Weatherspoon at PF, and it's proven to be unsuccessful against the bigger teams. The Rockets need to stop short changing themselves into playing players too small for their respective positions. David Wesley, Luther Head, Chuck Hayes etc..........Their all undersized. It irks me that Van Gundy keeps making the same damn mistake over and over. It's time to get some size on this team. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">You, on the other hand, are the one making the unwavering assertions (Hayes is a garbage player and will never be starter-quality). It's hypocritical to say, on one hand, I shouldn't judge, and then make much stronger (and quite baseless) judgements yourself.</div> I'm not judging. As I previously stated, we've had undersized PF's start for us, and it didn't work. Why put yourself in the same predicament? I like Chuck Hayes, he's a hardworker. But in my opinion, the Rockets should be looking in a different direction. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> They didn't mention Howard in the article. They've said all along that Howard is a professional, has a good attitude, and comes to play every day. But clearly, they think much higher of Chuck Hayes than you. They consider him a special player with a high basketball IQ. A "coach on the floor", which is an unbelievable compliment for a so called "garbage" rookie who'll never amount to anything.</div> Don't read too much into the quotes. Van Gundy is also quoted as saying "Ryan Bowen will always have a spot on my team". That quote alone says alot
I'd like to see them bring back Kelvin Cato to play alongside Yao or back him up.. he seemed to play hard for JVG and might want to come back. Also he might be willing to sign for the 4.2 million trade exception.
Hey ladies, chill out they're both here to stay. I can't believe you guys are arguing on two little fishes in the houston team. I'd rather argue about CD's stupidity for not getting more than battier and not getting mike james.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">They were playing the best ball in 2yrs in that stretch, that's with a full compliment of players. My point is, that's proof that we can win with Howard starting. Without Tmac or Yao, he might not be as effective. But with both of our stars, Howard can be effective in a limited role. I actually think his defense is better than your acknowledging too.</div> It's also "proof" the Rockets could win just as much with players like Padgett, Bowen, and Weatherspoon getting all the PF minutes, since they finished the year off strong with those guys when Howard went down (as I said, 13-6 before Howard got injured, and 13-6 after he got injured). And you're still ignoring the fact that the Rockets played drastically worse with Howard on the floor than off the floor. Why don't you respond to this. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes's numbers are better per-minute because the guy didn't play that many minutes. Our record with Ryan Bowen starting is great, does that mean he should start?</div> Lots of players don't play a lot of minutes, and their per-minute numbers explain why. Ryan Bowen is a perfect example. He had one of the worst PERs in the entire league. Bowen has always had terrible per-minute numbers. Bowen has never been anywhere near as effective, per minute, as Chuck Hayes was last season. In fact, if you look at the top 100 in PER (per minute statistical rating) for players playing a minimum of 250 minutes in the season, not a single player rated ahead of Chuck Hayes played less than 20 mpg. If it was so common for low-minute players to have high per-minute numbers, why aren't there any with a PER better than Hayes? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Being open minded is one thing, but convincing me that Chuck Hayes should start on a team that's trying to win a championship is delusional.</div> I could say the same thing about Juwan Howard. Neither figure to be elite starters, obviously. I think Hayes is a better player, and he'd probably be more productive with starter minutes than Howard has been the last few seasons. Plus, Juwan is only getting worse. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We've already had similar players in Clarence Weatherspoon at PF, and it's proven to be unsuccessful against the bigger teams.</div> Hayes last year was far better than Weatherspoon in 2004 and 2005. Much better defensively and on the boards. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not judging. As I previously stated, we've had undersized PF's start for us, and it didn't work. Why put yourself in the same predicament? I like Chuck Hayes, he's a hardworker. But in my opinion, the Rockets should be looking in a different direction. </div> Fine. I think your opinion is warped, because you're ignoring Hayes's performance last season and only focusing on his lack of size. If you actually look at his performance, you'll realize that he's not just another Ryan Bowen or Clarence Weatherspoon. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't read too much into the quotes. Van Gundy is also quoted as saying "Ryan Bowen will always have a spot on my team". That quote alone says alot</div> Did I quote Van Gundy? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting drm2dnk:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey ladies, chill out they're both here to stay. I can't believe you guys are arguing on two little fishes in the houston team. I'd rather argue about CD's stupidity for not getting more than battier and not getting mike james.</div> I'm bored of those topics.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">It's also "proof" the Rockets could win just as much with players like Padgett, Bowen, and Weatherspoon getting all the PF minutes, since they finished the year off strong with those guys when Howard went down (as I said, 13-6 before Howard got injured, and 13-6 after he got injured).</div> Yea, but they ended up losing in the playoff series because of the absence of Howard too. Why? because it came down to Ryan Bowen hitting jumpshots. Tmac & Yao need the floor spaced so they can go to work. If we have a liability on offense, it's gonna ultimatley hurt our star players. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">And you're still ignoring the fact that the Rockets played drastically worse with Howard on the floor than off the floor. Why don't you respond to this.</div> You've thrown out ur stats, and I've referred you twice to when we were playing our best basketball the year before last. We were coming off a huge winning streak, and about to start another one. Howard played solid minutes, and contributed to that. That's what the Rockets should aim for with a healthy Tmac & Yao. You can throw you stats out there all you want, but the fact remains that Howard played best with our full compliment of players. Chuck Hayes played better with everybody injured. BIG DIFFERENCE <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Lots of players don't play a lot of minutes, and their per-minute numbers explain why. Ryan Bowen is a perfect example. He had one of the worst PERs in the entire league. Bowen has always had terrible per-minute numbers. Bowen has never been anywhere near as effective, per minute, as Chuck Hayes was last season.</div> There the exact same player, outside of skintone. When Ryan Bowen started in 05 regular season, we were UNDEFEATED. But when it came down to playing an elite team in Dallas, they exposed that weakness. Same will go for Chuck Hayes lack of any offense. Ur not gonna get over 6pts from him on most nights. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I could say the same thing about Juwan Howard. Neither figure to be elite starters, obviously. I think Hayes is a better player, and he'd probably be more productive with starter minutes than Howard has been the last few seasons. Plus, Juwan is only getting worse</div> Lmao......Hayes is nowhere near the player Howard is. Howard has played over 10yrs, and averaged 17pts a game. On a good night, he'll give you 20-10. Chuck Hayes may not get that one time next year. No comparison. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes last year was far better than Weatherspoon in 2004 and 2005. Much better defensively and on the boards.</div> Not really, there isn't much difference in their numbers. There about the same height, but Weatherspoon actually guarded the perimiter better.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Yea, but they ended up losing in the playoff series because of the absence of Howard too. Why? because it came down to Ryan Bowen hitting jumpshots. Tmac & Yao need the floor spaced so they can go to work. If we have a liability on offense, it's gonna ultimatley hurt our star players.</div> I'm not going to argue against this point. Sure, Juwan Howard would probably have been a better option than Ryan Bowen. There just wasn't a whole lot of evidence, in the regular season, that the Rockets were worse off when Howard got injured. But if you want to insist that Juwan was better than Bowen, fine. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You've thrown out ur stats, and I've referred you twice to when we were playing our best basketball the year before last. We were coming off a huge winning streak, and about to start another one. Howard played solid minutes, and contributed to that. That's what the Rockets should aim for with a healthy Tmac & Yao. </div> Yeah, and the Rockets ended the season on a 7 game winning streak, without Juwan Howard. The Rockets indeed won the last 5 games Juwan played that season. But let's delve further into those games and see how the Rockets fared when Juwan was on the court. Specifically, let's look at the previous 13 Rocket wins before the GS game in which Juwan was injured: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/><font color=""Navy"">OppMPOn+/-MnPOff+/-</font><br/>SAC35.61912.4-1<br/>PHO21.9-1326.133<br/>SEA38810-6<br/>DAL32.6015.421<br/>CHI30.52117.516<br/>WAS28.9519.125<br/>POR35.8112.20<br/>IND35.52212.5-14<br/>CHI25.2-222.815<br/>LAL29.51618.5-15<br/>MIN39.668.40<br/>PHI40.2247.8-1<br/>BOS22.8-1525.219<br/>Total416.192207.992<br/>10.621.2<br/></div> <font size=""1"">data from here</font> The last line shows that the Rockets were 10.6 points better than the opponent, per 48 minutes, while Juwan was on the court in those 13 wins. Very good. But how about when he was off the court? The reserve unit was even better -- an astounding +21.2 points per 48 minutes. In other words, based on point differential, the Rockets were about 10 points worse per 48 minutes with Juwan on the court than off the court. If you want to argue that Juwan was the reason we were winning all those games ... I'd reconsider that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can throw you stats out there all you want, but the fact remains that Howard played best with our full compliment of players. Chuck Hayes played better with everybody injured. BIG DIFFERENCE</div> Firstly, Hayes wasn't given much of a chance to play with a full compliment of players, since the Rockets were mostly injured last year (particularly in the second half of the season). More relevant than how they played individually with healthy teammates would be how the team performed when they were on the court along with the rest of the starters. For Yao: Juwan played 49.2% of his minutes alongside Yao Ming in the 05/06 season. He scored 12.6 points/40min on 46% shooting from the field, and grabbed 8.6 reb/40min. The Rockets were -2.9 pts/48min relative to the opponent when Juwan and Yao were on the court together. Juwan played 65.8% of his minutes alongside Yao Ming in the 04/05 season. He scored 13.2 points/40min on 44.8% shooting from the field, and grabbed 8.6 reb/40min. The Rockets were +0.5 pts/48min relative to the opponent when Juwan and Yao were on the court together. Hayes played only 19.6% of his minutes alongside Yao in the 05/06 season (a total of 105 minutes). He scored 11.4 points/40min on 61% shooting from the field, and grabbed 12.6 reb/40min in that time. The Rockets were +16.9 pts/48min relative to the opponent with Hayes and Yao on the court together. For McGrady: Juwan played 47% of his minutes alongside McGrady in the 05/06 season. He scored 12.6 points/40min on 46.1% shooting from the field, and grabbed 7.9 reb/40min in that time. The Rockets were -0.3 pts/48min relative to the opponent with Howard and McGrady on the court together. Juwan played 86% of his minutes alongside McGrady in the 04/05 season. He scored 14.3 points/40min on 45.4% shooting from the field, and grabbed 8.5 reb/40min in that time. The Rockets were +2.1 pts/48min relative to the opponent with Howard and McGrady on the court together. Hayes played 35.4% of his minutes alongside McGrady in the 05/06 season (a total of 189 minutes). He scored 10.3 points/40min on 46.5% shooting from the field, and grabbed 13.5 reb/40min in that time. The Rockets were +2.3 pts/48min relative to the opponent with Hayes and McGrady on the court together. In sum, Juwan is scoring a bit more than Hayes, per 40 minutes, but the difference isn't that significant. Hayes does get nearly 5 more rebounds per 40 minutes, generally is a more efficient scorer, and the team's point differential with him on the court was generally stronger. Further, as I've already posted, the Rockets as a team played better with Yao on the court and Juwan off the court each of the last 2 seasons. Same goes with McGrady, again each of the last 2 seasons. It seems like all your opinions are based less on actual facts, and more on some flawed perception of Juwan's contributions that isn't really there. When you watch a basketball game, are you only paying attention to who's taking jump shots and hitting them? You do realize that there's more to winning in basketball than hitting a midrange spot up jumpshot, right? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There the exact same player, outside of skintone.</div> No, they're not. Again ... I don't know what you're watching on the court, but you need to pay a little more attention. And if you don't have that attention span, just look at the stats. Hayes, flat out, had a bigger positive impact on games than Weatherspoon did while he was with the Rockets. Rockets were +10.3 points/48min better, relative to the opponent, with Hayes on the court last season. Hayes had an 18.0 PER (per possession statistical rating), which was third amongst all rookies. Only Chris Paul (22.1) and Channing Frye (18.1) were statistically better, per possession. In contrast, in 04/05 the Rockets were +1.6 points/48min better, relative to the opponent, with Weatherspoon on the court. He had a 9.0 PER, which is very poor (15.0 is average). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When Ryan Bowen started in 05 regular season, we were UNDEFEATED. But when it came down to playing an elite team in Dallas, they exposed that weakness. Same will go for Chuck Hayes lack of any offense. Ur not gonna get over 6pts from him on most nights. </div> Chuck Hayes and Ryan Bowen are very different players. That you don't see this, again, suggests you're not very attentive while watching games. In the 04/05 season, Bowen had an absolutely pitiful 7.7 PER. He was a horrendously inefficient scorer (46.2 true shooting%), and an absolutely terrible rebounder for a PF (5.0 reb/40min). Via points scored, assists, and offensive rebounds, Bowen produced only 7.5 points per 40 minutes played. In the 05/06 season, Bowen was even worse. An unbelievably bad 4.0 PER and even less efficient (33.5 true shooting%). Again, he's completely inadequate a frontcourt rebounder (5.3 reb/40min). Via points scored, assists, and offensive rebounds, Bowen produced only 6.4 points per 40 minutes played. Totally useless. Now, what did Hayes do last season? As mentioned, he had a strong 18.0 PER. He was a very efficient scorer (58.0 TS%). Hayes grabbed 13.4 reb/40min, which is well over twice as many as Bowen gets. Hayes gets more steals and blocks as well. Via points scored, assists, and offensive boarsd, he produced 12.3 points per 40 minutes, which is only a few points less than what Juwan Howard produced, and Hayes did it much more efficiently. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lmao......Hayes is nowhere near the player Howard is. Howard has played over 10yrs, and averaged 17pts a game. On a good night, he'll give you 20-10. Chuck Hayes may not get that one time next year. No comparison.</div> Wow, great analysis. Per game numbers are absolutely worthless. It's all about what a player can give you, per possession, while he's on the court. Any coach will tell you that. If you're going to make an argument based on box score stats, it's per possession (or at least per minute) numbers which you should use. Not per game numbers. Howard's PER has been sliding precipitously the last 4 years. 17.2 PER in 2003 (a career high), then 15.6, then 13.0 and 12.5 with the Rockets. Hayes, in his very first season, posted an 18.0 PER. But box score numbers don't tell the full story. That's why it's useful to look at team point differential with a player on the court. And, again, Hayes fares significantly better than Juwan by this measure. Based on this mountain of evidence, I certainly think Chuck deserves the opportunity to get most of the minute at PF, when the alternative is Juwan Howard. Will it happen? Probably not. Van Gundy is a conservative coach, who's more comfortable with veteran players. I suspect he'll mainly stick with Juwan again next season. And I believe that will be a mistake. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not really, there isn't much difference in their numbers. There about the same height, but Weatherspoon actually guarded the perimiter better.</div> Wrong, on pretty much every count. Weatherspoon guarded the perimeter better? Yeah, maybe 12 years ago.
