guess ill chip in with my 2bits... im not particularly happy with this trade at first glance either...charlie is obviously going to be a good talent in this league...but i dont see him becomming a top 10 player, and lets face it, he's not a SF. having charlie on the wing is every bit a defensive liability as tj at guard...prolly even worse since the nba's best players play on the wing. you have to give colangelo credit for one thing...he's making moves and not trigger shy. here is a quote i read on realgm, that i thought made a lot of sense and kind of put my mind at ease. its kind of a long read, but if you're anywhere near as worried about this deal as i am, its worth the read: The purpose of drafting BPA is accumulating the talent not only to fill out your roster, but to enable trades to fill in gaps. I love Charlie. He made a bad year less unbearable. He has high offensive upside, but truth be told, he's as dumb as a sack of hammers at the defensive end. He's always turning the wrong way on D. I don't know if you can ever cure something like that. He can become less of a liability, and playing power forward will help, but let's not kid ourselves that he is going to be a top 10 NBA player. Still, emotionally, I felt an attachment to him, his humility and generosity and the fact he really liked Toronto (we tend to really overrate somebody who wants to be in Toronto, a reflex brought on by so many defections and stupid comments about the metric system and customs checks.) When you accumulate more tradeable assets at a position than you need, you run the risk of falling in love with them all and not pulling the trigger on trades to fill needs. Atlanta is a good example of a team with no point guard and a weak frontcourt but an army of talent on the wing. Each year Billy Knight hangs on to all the frontcourt talent, they get a year closer to either overpaying these guys or losing them in free agency or shotgun trades. But GM's like Knight are so in love with their young guys, and maybe insecure in their jobs, and they can't afford to do what BC did yesterday. They feel they have to get the upperhand on a trade or they will be hooted out of the job by the fans and media. In fact, I would argue that if you have a very tradeable asset and very serious needs, it's not essential to get what the public believes is a great deal for the value of that asset. It is better to do a good job of plugging the hole, even if you only get back 97% of the value of the asset you are trading. The impact on wins and losses is going to be far greater than the 3% loss of value. So whether TJ Ford is 97% of CV's value, or 103%, doesn't matter to me so much as what it does for our win/loss outlook and our long-term development. It's also worth noting that this year's draft had crappy PG options - no PG made the top 20 - and next year's draft doesn't look any better. But next year's draft is loaded with nice wing players. We don't even need to mention Oden. There are some very nice young SFs who would have been candidates for the #1 overall pick in this week's draft. A year ago, people here were complaining that Babcock was like a deer in the headlights - barely able to make a trade. Now, BC, with a high confidence level and a secure contract situation, is remaking the roster almost overnight, and people are nervous. Some have a comfort level in "potential", but at some point, you have to have the stones to move up. You can't expect Bosh to be cool with the situation here if you want to perennial underachieve to draft the Next Big Thing. He'll sign his extension, but he's not going to stay here indefinitely without making the playoffs. In the big picture, I think Bargnani is our future 5, Bosh is our 4, Ford is our 1. That's a nice, positionally balanced young core. Bosh in an all-star and I believe Bargnani and Ford are potential all-stars? Who among the young point guards in the East is a more likely all-star? Billups, Iverson and Marbury are all 30 or over. Ford has a high ceiling, and if I am right, Bargnani and Bosh are likely to be a better "twin towers" than Darko and Howard or Bogut and Charlie. There is a nasty little secret about NBA drafting - despite all the pseudo science and testing and measuring, it's all about patterns and flavors of the month. Who's the next Dirk? Who's the next Amare? When Euros are in, they get overrated. When Euros are out, they get underrated. Euros were out the past couple of years - the Skita/Darko factor, so the GMs that had the stones to take them are going to be rewarded. I think Bargnani is going to be better than Bogut in most categories and will send the scouts scurrying overseas again looking for the next Bargnani. If we can get a good SF, using our next draft pick or trading it as part of a package for one, I think we're going to position ourselves for a hell of a run. lets not forget...BC isnt finnished making moves. and at 7ft1 i really dont see bargnani as our sf, but our starting C. bc is still going to try and bring someone in to start at sf id imagine ford mo pete peja (just throwing a name in there) bosh bargnani
why not? he's 7ft1 (a hair under) and bulk can be put on easily. he gained 25lbs in a year. if bogut, dalembert, krystic, foster, can play center, bargnani certainly can. even gasol logged lots of minutes at the 5...so i have no doubt that bargnani can be groomed into a starting center. i just dont see us using a 7 footer on the wing when we need a center so badly...rasho hardly solves the problem
Stolen from the Toronto Sun article: "There were doubts when (Villanueva) was picked by Toronto and now he's going to try to show that Toronto made the worst trade in the history of sport," Billy Ceisler, Villanueva's agent, said. "I told him (about the trade) and we kind of giggled a little bit and we both kind of said, 'That's all they got for (Villanueva)."
In response to your link dj_premium_plus... What's the point of an article rationalizing the trade by saying that Charlie isnt going to be a top 10? The only way that is at all relevant is if they feel Ford will be. OK so CV31 might not be a top 10 player in the future...but Ford might not be a top 30 player in the future, or top 50 even if he plays like he did lastyear.
I think BC sees Steve Nash in TJ Ford. I have to say I have been very impressed with TJ's speed in the fast and he was actually playing quite amazingly at the start of the season last season. Basically, he reminds me of a better version of Jose Calederon. They're both fast, okay shooters and both can't really defend. But, Nash can't defend either. I think the Raptors will be solid this year, pending Andrea's progress. However, I don't believe this trade was worth it. CV is an amazing player and could be on the level of The Matrix, to put it into perspective. Yes, we filled a need but we lost a diamond in the process. CV is going to be an amazing player in the future. I'm not pissed, U just pray that BC sees somehing that none of us see. And furthermore, you guys shouldn't start bashing on him already, before a season's even been played. Also, its interesting that all of his trades have come unannounced. Funny how all the "ESPN Insider" trades swirl in rumours yet never happen and BC's pulled off 3 trades without a peep.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">In response to your link dj_premium_plus... What's the point of an article rationalizing the trade by saying that Charlie isnt going to be a top 10? The only way that is at all relevant is if they feel Ford will be. OK so CV31 might not be a top 10 player in the future...but Ford might not be a top 30 player in the future, or top 50 even if he plays like he did lastyear.</div> the rationale is we're giving up on someone who's not proven and still a work in progress for the same thing. its not as if we've seen everything TJ has to offer. a poor jumpshot and weak defensively arent things that cant be built on...ron artest is just one of many players that came into this league with no jump shot what-so-ever, but worked hard and made one. hard work is a character trait that TJ is known for...i have no doubt that his game is still improving, and im glad we have a point guard that still has their best years to come. colangelo sees something special in him, and thats saying a lot, since he saw something special in nash, marion and amare to name just a few. you're right...ford might not turn out to be anything...but im trying to see the silver lining here...there ARE some positives to look at, but you gotta be a glass half full kind of guy. i dont think tj will play like he did last year...which for all intents and purposes was his first season in the L. he's young and has a great upside...just like charlie, except charlie was playing out of position here. if colangelo brings in a great wing player that can stretch the defense, compliment bosh and make teams pay for throwing doubles at bosh...then i think we'll be set. all im saying is there is definitely method to BC's madness...and if we should trust anyone to ultimately make moves that are going to benefit the team down the road...its him. lets see where he's going with this move...does anyone here REALLY think that BC is done here? im 100% sure he'll be bringing in another player to play the wing in the end, to get a player you have to give up a player...nobody was going to just give us an all-star. CV was our most tradeable asset...before we see what TJ does for us, we should relax. it sucks we lost CV, but if TJ leads the league, or is even in the top 3 in apg next season and raps make the playoffs, we'll all be saying "BIG UP colangelo for picking this guy up".
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">GET OUT OF THESE FORUMS BRIAN COLANGELO!!! you'd have to be him to think charlie for tj ford is fair value. The damn point gaurd had a average at best season last year, has a serious back issue in his recent history, and is older best point gaurd in the league....even reading what the Bucks are saying screams "he's solid but our 2 backups can fill his spot without much trouble". This trade is horrible (note: i do think ford will do well with the Raps), but going by value alone, BC got taken to school.</div> Yes...one of the best pg's in the league. Ur talkin about somebody who can defend, push the rock, assist, create ur own shot and plays with as much heart as AI. The only negative is his jumpshot, but it's improving every year. You guys must haven't seen the game where TJ locked down AI.
TJ Ford can defend?? I dunno what u were watching during the Detroit series but TJ Ford cannot defend bigger and stronger guards period. And there's a lot of bigger and stronger guards than TJ Ford. I really thought Toronto could of gotten like a couple of first rounders too. This trade maybe questionable but there's probably a lot more trades coming. Lets hope Colangelo somehow lands the #1 pick next season.. haha. Well also the trade was announced late, maybe a Free Agent was signed? or had a verbal agreement prior to this trade??
I think this was a bad move by Colangelo. I think we could have gotten a lot more for CV31. ....... don't feel like going into it.
Wow i'm suprised, who knows how good charlie can get potential all-star for sure. TJ a good role player but he won't ever be a real leader in my books. Andres better develop fast.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Gotrunks226:</div><div class="quote_post"> I really thought Toronto could of gotten like a couple of first rounders too. This trade maybe questionable but there's probably a lot more trades coming. Lets hope Colangelo somehow lands the #1 pick next season.. haha. Well also the trade was announced late, maybe a Free Agent was signed? or had a verbal agreement prior to this trade??</div> A couple of first rounders? Why is everyone so high on Villanueva? Was it that 50 point game? He seemed like a solid player but I highly doubt he will be a top-tier player in the league, and like other people have said he was playing out of position. Once Bargnani and TJ play a few games you'll forget all about Villanueva
Now that i think about it though i think this will help the raps t.j is a solid pg. he averged 6.6 assist in 35 minutes if he's given all the minutes mike james had last season he could average close to 7 apg. The raps have to many forwards anyways.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post"> You guys must haven't seen the game where TJ locked down AI.</div> what, did he hold him to 30?
I can understand why the Raptors wanted TJ Ford, but generally it's a disadvantage to trade a quality big for a quality small. It appears Colangelo is trying to remove any traces of the Babcock GM Era in Toronto. This puts tremendous pressure on Bargnani to perform for the Raptors. The organization must have a lot of confidence in his game to make a bold trade like this. I also agree, the Raptors probably could have got more for Villanueva. This year's draft class had quite a few PGs with upside who are capable of running a team. Landing a player like Rondo, Marcus Williams, Sergio Rodriguez would have made just as much sense and probably wouldn't have cost the team Villanueva. If they really wanted to deal Villanueva, I would think they could get back a better prospect to hold down the Center position.
How can you guys label this as a good or bad trade? Both are still young and both are still developing. The trade seems to be very unpopular, but complain to Colangelo all you want once we see both in action in the following seasons. Remember, Colangelo does his homework, so he must have seen something in Ford that could help the team. You also can't say if a player is going to be an all-star based on their rookie seasons. Villanueva had a fantastic one, but who knows if he'll be an all-star? A countless number of players have fallen off since their rookie seasons.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting giftedvisionz:</div><div class="quote_post">How can you guys label this as a good or bad trade? Both are still young and both are still developing. The trade seems to be very unpopular, but complain to Colangelo all you want once we see both in action in the following seasons. Remember, Colangelo does his homework, so he must have seen something in Ford that could help the team. You also can't say if a player is going to be an all-star based on their rookie seasons. Villanueva had a fantastic one, but who knows if he'll be an all-star? A countless number of players have fallen off since their rookie seasons.</div> Well at the end of the day it doesn't matter if CV becomes an All Star or not. It comes down to how many wins your team gets from this deal. Looking through the history of trades, teams who trade a big for a small usually come out on the wrong end of the deal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">why not? he's 7ft1 (a hair under) and bulk can be put on easily. he gained 25lbs in a year. if bogut, dalembert, krystic, foster, can play center, bargnani certainly can. even gasol logged lots of minutes at the 5...so i have no doubt that bargnani can be groomed into a starting center. i just dont see us using a 7 footer on the wing when we need a center so badly...rasho hardly solves the problem</div> I don't see Bargnani playing center either. From what the scouts say, he doesn't rebound, he doesn't defend well and he has no post game. Plus he needs to add a lot of bulk. That's quite a lot of work to do. I see him spending the most time at PF-SF. He's not the answer at center. A big problem with this trade is Colangelo's putting all his eggs in one basket. What happens if Bargnani is a bust? (I'm not saying it will happen, but it's still a distinct possibilty). All that "depth" in the front court is essentially out the window. Who do we have left? Rasho/Bosh/Humphries/Sow. I don't know about you but that front court is garbage. I don't see how this team is even an improvement over last season (as of right now). We lose James and replace him with Ford and we lose Charlie and replace him with an unproven Bargnani. We haven't gotten any better at rebounding, scoring or defense. At this rate, we'll be lucky to equal the win total of last season.
With this trade happening the very second the free agent market opens up, it becomes clearer as to what Colangelo's plans are.... he's gonna go after Peja. To me, that's the only explanation I can come up with. He wouldn't want to give Peja an offer while CV's just sitting there thinking "wtf? Where do I fit in?" BC probably wanted CV outta there so he wouldn't have to deal with all the uncertainty and unwanted publicity. If BC does get to sign Peja, we would have a pretty decent line-up though: pg - Ford sg - MoPete sf - Peja pf - Bosh c - Rasho (Bargnani later on)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dunksworth:</div><div class="quote_post">With this trade happening the very second the free agent market opens up, it becomes clearer as to what Colangelo's plans are.... he's gonna go after Peja. To me, that's the only explanation I can come up with. He wouldn't want to give Peja an offer while CV's just sitting there thinking "wtf? Where do I fit in?" BC probably wanted CV outta there so he wouldn't have to deal with all the uncertainty and unwanted publicity. If BC does get to sign Peja, we would have a pretty decent line-up though: pg - Ford sg - MoPete sf - Peja pf - Bosh c - Rasho (Bargnani later on)</div> Interesting theory, however, I think a better player for them to pursue would be Radman.
