I'm going to address a lot of things and might not quote all of them. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I am merely agreeing with Casual that, until Gordon proves himself as a consistent 20+ a night scorer, Chicago's best chance at success is building in the Detroit mould of defense first (which they do seem to be doing). In any case, you still need that consistent scorer, like they have in Rip. </div>First and foremost, Sir Des, why do we need one consistent scorer? Sure, it'd help, but we have plenty of people that can score. On any given night we have at least 4 people (Gordon, Deng, Noc, Hinrich) that can score 20+. We also have plenty of defense to shut down any team in the NBA. And to prove that no consistent scoring threat is needed, I point to the Detroit Pistons that won the title back in '04. No one on that team scored 20+. No one. For that matter, no one on any of the last four Detroit teams scored 20+. They won with balance and defense. No big name, no superstar, no extremely high scoring players. Balance and defense. Why can't we do the same? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm with Casual here. Gordon has the potential to be that primetime scorer, but right now he reminds more of Vinnie Johnson, in the sense he can absolutely light it up, but he can also stink it up. And until he goes through a season starting and putting up 20+ consistently every night (like Rip has done), then he isn't a go-to scorer. That's not to say he won't develop into one at all. </div>You're right, Ben Gordon has yet to average 20+ and do it consistently. But...Rip has only done it once. How do you know he does it again? And once again, the Pistons, when they won it, didn't have a 20+ per game scorer. So..what makes them so special that they can get by without one? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In a way that just proves Casual's point more, as who is Chicago's LeBron or Wade? The guy who consistently scores big when his team needs him? A guy who averaged 17ppg on 42% shooting. Enough said</div>. Here I must wonder as to why we need a LeBron or Wade type of scorer? Why? Why is it so necessary in this day and age that we need one? It was just a few years ago that the Pistons won it with players the average fan has never heard of. Hell, they made it to four straight ECFs with a team full players, who, while not superstars, knew their role in the offense, executed properly, and played great defense. They didn't need a superstar. Why can't the Bulls be like that? Why must everyone point out the Bulls lack of a superstar, lack of a primetime scorer, all that bullshit. Why does it matter? They play great defense, have tremendous depth that no other team has, and has plenty of people that can score if one guy is having an off night. They don't need a LeBron or Wade to win, and they've shown that. The Pistons have proven that you don't need a superstar to win. Why should we? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I am happy for you to keep making the playoffs, but my point is that to actually progress and become a title threat, you need to have a reliable go-to scorer. Those five teams may have averaged less per game as a team, but they have Duncan, Wade, LeBron, Rip and Brand. Who do Chicago have?</div>Again I ask, why do we need a primetime scorer? I will point out the Pistons of 03-04 once again, the team that knocked of the mighty HOF squad Lakers, as the example. No primetime scorer. Just a great defense and tremendous balance. That's what Chicago has. What makes them so different? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't say the Bulls needed one, I was pointing out the Bulls don't have one, and their best chance at winning is to go in the Detroit mould.</div>Which is exactly what they're doing. Yet, you continue to say that the Bulls need that primetime scorer. The Pistons never had one when they were winning a title and coming in 2nd the year after. And while they don't have that reliable "go to guy", they have a bunch of players that can score, not just one.
Casual v. The State of Chicago, court is in session. Exhibit A: The parameters I've been talking about this entire time were indeed Chicago's chances of winning a championship, something which was obviously not as evident as I assumed. I'm not sure why the prosecution would think I'm saying that an improving playoff team is worse than the Atlanta Hawks. Of course, the lead prosecutor, Vintage, will probably claim that I am changing my argument yet again in saying this, as if saying the same thing over and over is what constitutes a worthy rebuttal. Exhibit B: I am going to restate my argument very succinctly so there is no confusion. The Chicago Bulls have very little chance of contending for a championship because they do not have a singular player who has the mental aptitude and physical attributes necessary to shoulder the scoring load each and every time the Bulls need such scoring in the fourth quarter of important games. Exhibit C: I am happy that Ben Gordon was a clutch performer in his rookie year. However, unless the Bulls have some sort of time traveling machine, they will be using the Ben Gordon who is in his third year in the NBA. Exhibit D: The 2003-2004 Pistons had a player who could score in the fourth quarter. His name is Chauncey Billups, commonly referred to as Mr. Big Shot. In addition, they had Richard Hamilton, who is no stranger to fourth quarter heroics himself. There is a strong difference between these two and anybody on the Bulls's roster. Mr. Billups and Mr. Hamilton can create their own shot in such situations, and nobody on the Bulls can. Now, before the prosecution begins to drag me into the back alley and beat me over the head with the names Hinrich, Gordon, and Nocioni, I would remind them that we are talking about playoff situations, in which none of the aforementioned Chicago players have played enough to prove themselves. There's hardly time to go over the importance of scoring from isolation plays in the NBA, but suffice it to say that every team, even the Phoenix Suns, they of the open offense, will give the ball to one player in the fourth quarter and depend on them to make a shot. The Bulls, sadly, do not have a player who can make such a shot on a consistent basis. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think Chicago fans would be full of confidence watching Ben Gordon holding a ball on the wings with 10 seconds to go in an important playoff game. Off-balance three, anyone? Closing Statement: I realize dedication is a big part of loving sports. However, the dedication must not come at the expense of logic. In this case, the prosecution has seen fit to attack yours truly because he has spoken ill of their beloved Chicago Bulls, seeming to believe that my negative comments regarding one aspect of the team was a blatant insult to the organization as a whole. It is not true. I suspect the only man in America who would say the Bulls are not a playoff team is the incomparable Craig Ehlo, whose emotional scars have sadly remained after all these years. May I not speak of the negative without mentioning the positive? May I not speak of a thorn without mentioning the rose. This case and its verdict hold important lessons. We must not go through the world with blinders on, seeking out only the words and phrases that make us passionate. We must also examine the words that are not there, as well as the circumstances surrounding them, so that we may understand everything that that we are privy to. Look before you leap, as it were. Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to thank you for your time. I hope I have made my side of the case as clear as possible. Rest assured my intentions were honorable. And so, I rest my case. Good night.
^ Here is your first post in this thread Casual... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I like New Orleans the most out of the listed teams since I don't consider Chicago to be "young" after this offseason, mostly because of Chris Paul. Paul's game allows him to take guys who might not have the greatest court intelligence such as Simmons or Armstrong and straighten out their learning curve considerably by giving them easy baskets. I don't know how far the team can get without somebody who can score at will, but they'll be fun as hell to watch for now. </div> Now.... Read the thread title. It says "Which team will be the best young team NEXT SEASON." This reply clearly implies you were answering the question posed (unless you are contending that the Hornets are more of a Title Contender than the Bulls). This all snowballed from THIS POST. You said, in answering the original post, that the Bulls weren't a young team and that the Hornets are the best young team. I replied to that. Then you came up with more "reasons." And I debunked them as well. You are now stating you were talking about the Bulls chances at winning a title. This wasn't even part of the discussion until Sir Desmond brought it up on an off tangent reply, which I then had to go off topic to reply back to it. So make your stance clear. Are the Hornets better contenders for a title this season than the Bulls? If you say "yes", then everything you have addressed thus far becomes relevant and you can claim that indeed you were talking about the Bulls chances at winning a championship all along and your reasons become relevant. If you fail to do so, then it is what it is....you getting shut down repeatedly with lame reasoning as to why the Bulls aren't young, etc....in your efforts to prove the Bulls as not being the best young team. Pick.
Jesus Christ almighty, this is annoying. Okay, back to my first post, then. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">I like New Orleans the most out of the listed teams since I don't consider Chicago to be "young" after this offseason</div> Notice the word "since", implying that if I thought Chicago was young, I'd say they were the best young team. My third post. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">No, but the only team I can recall that went deep into the playoffs without a primetime scorer recently is New Jersey, and Kirk Hinrich isn't exactly Jason Kidd.</div> Notice the phrase, "deep into the playoffs", implying I am comparing the Bulls to teams who go deep into the playoffs. Fourth post. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think they score well enough to do anything more than win a first round playoff series at best, mostly because they don't have a player who can carry the team in the fourth quarter consistently. I don't really care if they were 13th in the league at scoring during the regular season. In the playoffs, I don't believe their offense will hold up against the elite teams of the league.</div> Again, talking about the Bulls against playoff teams. All three of these posts were before Sirdez. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">it is what it is....you getting shut down repeatedly with lame reasoning as to why the Bulls aren't young,</div> I don't know why you keep bringing this up. I admitted I was wrong about them not being young in my second post. If you want to have a debate about this, I'm all for it, but you're just trying to make me look stupid instead of responding to what I say. I'm sorry if I didn't spell out my exact meaning in every post I made. I assume whoever is reading my messages can apply the proper context and understand what I'm saying.
The thread title was "Which young team will be the best next season?" To which, you replied... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I like New Orleans the most out of the listed teams since I don't consider Chicago to be "young" after this offseason </div> Which I proved wrong. Your post just above me had this quote commenting on it... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Notice the word "since", implying that if I thought Chicago was young, I'd say they were the best young team. </div> Agreed. You thought wrong. But then, you replied back with.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You got me. They're old souls, I guess. I still don't think Chicago has enough scoring punch, unless JR Smith regains his confidence in a hurry. Hopefully they can pick up Kevin Durant in the draft next year. </div> How silly of me to assume you were still talking about the best young team next year, since, after all, that was what the thread was about. THEN you brought up the Nets going into the playoffs, deep. Which is fine and dandy. But how does that prohibit the Bulls from being the best young team in the league?
I think Orlando will be the best young team of the East, and the Hornets will be so for the West. Both have a lot of young potential and smart, veteran coaches who know how to teach the game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">How silly of me to assume you were still talking about the best young team next year, since, after all, that was what the thread was about.</div> Do you want me to apologize for going off-topic? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">THEN you brought up the Nets going into the playoffs, deep.</div> Don't know what that has to do with anything... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Which is fine and dandy. But how does that prohibit the Bulls from being the best young team in the league? </div> It doesn't. I keep saying I was wrong about the Bulls not being young, and you keep bringing it up. I honestly don't know what you're trying to get me to admit at this point, and the only reason I'm still posting is that I'm too stubborn to let you have the last word.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you want me to apologize for going off-topic? Don't know what that has to do with anything... It doesn't. I keep saying I was wrong about the Bulls not being young, and you keep bringing it up. I honestly don't know what you're trying to get me to admit at this point, and the only reason I'm still posting is that I'm too stubborn to let you have the last word.</div> No, no apology needed. Simply proving you wrong was all I wanted.
Yes, you proved me wrong two pages ago and keep bringing it up instead of responding to any other argument I introduce. That obviously invalidates everything I have ever said in my life. I will now commit suicide in the manner of the ancient samurai to atone for my sins, as nothing I can say will ever be considered relevant again.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, you proved me wrong two pages ago and keep bringing it up instead of responding to any other argument I introduce. That obviously invalidates everything I have ever said in my life. I will now commit suicide in the manner of the ancient samurai to atone for my sins, as nothing I can say will ever be considered relevant again.</div> What other points would you like me to address, that pertain to this thread? I am more than happy to keep this going. Its that, or actually work. And work is kind of boring me right now. So please, point out those relevant points....
No. If you're going to pretend I haven't made any other points or need help finding them, then this whole this is worthless.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">No. If you're going to pretend I haven't made any other points or need help finding them, then this whole this is worthless.</div> I have yet to see any reasonable point you made as to why the Bulls aren't the best young team. That includes the "age" arguement.
The best young team in the league next season will be Seattle Supersonics. Here are the ages of each of the players on the Sonics roster: Ray Allen: 30 Danny Fortson: 30 (most likely will not be w/ the team next season) Mikki Moore: 30 Earl Watson: 27 Rashard Lewis: 26 Damien Wilkins: 26 Nick Collison: 25 Luke Ridnour: 25 Chris Wilcox: 24 Mickael Gelebale: 23 Robert Swift: 20 Johan Petro: 20 Saer Sene: 20 Outside of Ray Allen no one in the Sonics rotation is over the age of 27. Our average age (including Danny Fortson) is 25 years old. Last years team struggled b/c of its defensive ineptness. Bob Weiss was fired after 30 games, Bob Hill changed all of the team's philosophies once he arrived, and the team made significant changes at the trading deadline to bring in Wilcox and Watson. Despite all of the changes the Sonics ranked #2 in the NBA in points per game--so scoring has never been a problem. In the draft they drafted Saer Sene, who they believe will anchor the frontline defensively. He has the potential to be one of the premier shot blockers in the league. They also reached a commitment with Gelebale who many NBA front office personnel believed would have been a late lottery pick in this draft. He is also known as a defensive stalwart on the perimeter. Looking at next year's roster we are at least two deep at every position. Our second unit could all be potential starters in the NBA. Ridnour/Watson Allen/Gelebale/Denham Brown(?) Lewis/Wilkins Wilcox/Collison/Moore Swift/Petro/Sene/Fortson How many teams can say that they are that deep? The Mavericks reached the NBA Finals last season b/c they got significant contributions from their bench. Looking at the young teams in the league: Chicago, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc.--they all have significant talent but the talent isn't balanced. Chicago can not generate offense in the paint, New Orleans has no backcourt depth and rely too heavily on David West to score on the interior, Atlanta has an abundance of swing men but not enough depth at the point guard position nor in the paint. Two years ago the Sonics won 52 games and the Northwest Division title in large part b/c they had a reliable 9 man rotation. This team has a go to scorer in Ray Allen, backcourt and frontcourt depth, along w/ All-Star forward Rashard Lewis and potential All-Star forward Chris Wilcox. Robert Swift and Johan Petro have made tremendous strides and are looked at as two of the best young centers in the league. Earl Watson may be the league's best back up point guard. Bob Hill has a full training camp to build on the success that the Sonics had after the trading deadline. If the Sonics can defend the paint better, which I believe that they will, this team has the potential to be one of the best turnaround stories in the league. So to all Chicago fans, until the Bulls are able to prove that they can get enough front court scoring to counter the inconsistent production that they get from their backcourt I would hold off on all the talk that Ben Wallace's addition will have the Bulls back in NBA Finals. And for the record, when you are countering a point all you have to do it is once. I didn't think that your post count was that important to you Vintage.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> How many teams can say that they are that deep? The Mavericks reached the NBA Finals last season b/c they got significant contributions from their bench. Looking at the young teams in the league: Chicago, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc.--they all have significant talent but the talent isn't balanced. Chicago can not generate offense in the paint, New Orleans has no backcourt depth and rely too heavily on David West to score on the interior, Atlanta has an abundance of swing men but not enough depth at the point guard position nor in the paint. </div> Yeah...and that lack of inside scoring has taken us to the playoffs the past two years. We are a perimeter based team. But we made the playoffs. And its not like Seattle has a 20ppg scorer in the post, either... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> And for the record, when you are countering a point all you have to do it is once. I didn't think that your post count was that important to you Vintage. </div> Awww....still mad at me? You caught me. I care so much about my post count on an internet message board..... I was one of the one's who was behind the "get rid of the post count" group. If I cared so much about my post count, why was I pushing hard for it to get removed? Secondly, if I care so much about my post count here, why don't I post here more often? I post more over at another basketball board than here, but yet, somehow, you think I care about my post count here? It would seem to reason that if I cared about my post count here, I would ONLY post here to get my post count up. Yet, thats not the case. And you think I am posting to get my post count up? LOL. Admit it. You are still mad over the Jeff Mc(G)Innis thing....which was, how many years ago? Talk about not letting something go... <font color="blue">Don't acknowledge our competition - Shiek</font>
At what point does reminding me that the Bulls have made the playoffs and have been bounced in the first round two consecutive years have anything to do w/ the argument that they will be the best young team in the league next season? I'm glad to see that my argument was sound enough that you didn't have any legitimate counterpoints to poke holes in it. As far as your in depth response as to why your post count doesn't matter to you, I was just making a point to you that you have repeated yourself too much in this thread. I ain't got nothing against you, fam. Just write more mature and efficient posts to set the example for the young writers in this forum. What you do on your own time is irrelevant to me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">At what point does reminding me that the Bulls have made the playoffs and have been bounced in the first round two consecutive years have anything to do w/ the argument that they will be the best young team in the league next season? </div> Well, seems to me, for the Sonics to be a better young team than the Bulls next season, they would need to make the second round of the playoffs next year (assuming Chicago makes the playoffs). Or finish with a better record. And last year, they didn't...so for now, Chicago has the edge. That was my point. The fact that the Bulls making the playoffs in and of itself is irrelevant. However, in reply to your post, it becomes relevant bec. Chicago has proven to be a young, playoff capable team for the past couple of seasons. Seattle hasn't. If you want to talk about which team, realistically, is probably the best young team... Its most likely the Suns, with Barbosa (23), Diaw (24), Stoudamire (23), James Jones (25). Of course, they have some vets in Marion (28), Nash (32), and Bell (29) <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> As far as your in depth response as to why your post count doesn't matter to you, I was just making a point to you that you have repeated yourself too much in this thread. I ain't got nothing against you, fam. Just write more mature and efficient posts to set the example for the young writers in this forum. What you do on your own time is irrelevant to me </div> I will continue to repeat myself if I feel its needed. It was. So I did. As for setting an example for the young writers, that is not really of any revelance to me. I am not a mod, they probably have no clue as to who I am to begin with, so why would they look to me anyway? If anything, they will look to the mods and other posters they known on these boards.... My posting style is what it is; mine.
Hmmm... there is a lot of flame going on around here... I'll just put my 2 cents in here, even if no one listens. I'll rep my place and talk about Toronto. If Sam Mitchell can coach this team the way Colangelo has built it around, which is up-tempo, than the Raptors will make the playoffs, hands down. They have their center piece, which happens to be a big man, who can run the floor, post up and shoot. The 2nd most important position, point guard which they now have, TJ Ford. Defensively was their problem last year, and we all know Charlie V was a nutball on defense, he had no clue, so now at the wing positions we have MoPete who is solid solid solid, Anthony Parker, who will be proven soon, John Salmons and Joey Graham. Then there's Rasho and Bargnani, Calderon, (Ukic soon, and Slokar), Garbajosa and Humphries. This team is filled with Youth, but mixed with veteran leadership. Which is what all good teams try to replicate. Everyone single person on this team can run, with the exception of Rasho who won't be starting after about 2 months. Watch out for Toronto, if not next year, than the year after when they get Durant or Oden.
Lots of flames.... Take it this way guys. Best young team in the..... <u>EAST</u> Orlando Magic, nuff said. Chicago would get my vote but even with Big Ben I would still think the Magic would be slightly better. <u>WEST</u> New Orleans Hornets. Sorry Shiek but the Sonics as the best young team? Besides Lewis and Allen that team is....nothing. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">At what point does reminding me that the Bulls have made the playoffs and have been bounced in the first round two consecutive years have anything to do w/ the argument that they will be the best young team in the league next season?</div> Shiek sorry again, but you are talking out your ass here. The only reason the Bulls bounced out each time was because they were young.....younger than the Sonics. Add on they were facing the Miami Heat and they gave the Heat a run for their money. A lot of you people talking and degrading Chicago probably have never seen them play, especially you Casual. Also Vintage stop dancing around everyone.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">Hmmm... there is a lot of flame going on around here... I'll just put my 2 cents in here, even if no one listens. I'll rep my place and talk about Toronto. If Sam Mitchell can coach this team the way Colangelo has built it around, which is up-tempo, than the Raptors will make the playoffs, hands down. They have their center piece, which happens to be a big man, who can run the floor, post up and shoot. The 2nd most important position, point guard which they now have, TJ Ford. Defensively was their problem last year, and we all know Charlie V was a nutball on defense, he had no clue, so now at the wing positions we have MoPete who is solid solid solid, Anthony Parker, who will be proven soon, John Salmons and Joey Graham. Then there's Rasho and Bargnani, Calderon, (Ukic soon, and Slokar), Garbajosa and Humphries. This team is filled with Youth, but mixed with veteran leadership. Which is what all good teams try to replicate. Everyone single person on this team can run, with the exception of Rasho who won't be starting after about 2 months. Watch out for Toronto, if not next year, than the year after when they get Durant or Oden.</div> So....they can go anywhere from making the playoffs "hands down" to "getting Durant or Oden", huh? Thats from playoffs....to being a lottery team....and most likely, to get Durant or Oden....a bad lottery team... That's quite a range.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">Hmmm... there is a lot of flame going on around here... I'll just put my 2 cents in here, even if no one listens. I'll rep my place and talk about Toronto. If Sam Mitchell can coach this team the way Colangelo has built it around, which is up-tempo, than the Raptors will make the playoffs, hands down. They have their center piece, which happens to be a big man, who can run the floor, post up and shoot. The 2nd most important position, point guard which they now have, TJ Ford. Defensively was their problem last year, and we all know Charlie V was a nutball on defense, he had no clue, so now at the wing positions we have MoPete who is solid solid solid, Anthony Parker, who will be proven soon, John Salmons and Joey Graham. Then there's Rasho and Bargnani, Calderon, (Ukic soon, and Slokar), Garbajosa and Humphries. This team is filled with Youth, but mixed with veteran leadership. Which is what all good teams try to replicate. Everyone single person on this team can run, with the exception of Rasho who won't be starting after about 2 months. Watch out for Toronto, if not next year, than the year after when they get Durant or Oden.</div> Care to tell me how you say the Raps will make the playoffs, but at the same time get Durant or Oden. You are completely contradicting your own prediction with this response. They can't have both. In case you didn't know Mr.Wade, you are only in the lottery if you did not make the playoffs. DUH
