Missing Ingredient

The Offseason is usually a fun time for us fans to dream up trade scenarios, scout that obsucre draft choice, or follow a Warrior player's off-season workouts. There's a safe 4 month buffer between off-season dreams and the reality of the regular season. While I have a lot of fun humoring trade ideas and free-agent signings, I've been thinking about our core unit lately -- ya know, the guys that are already on the team?

I've said before and I'll hold to it: This current roster is playoff caliber -- if it can find that flow and chemistry displayed during the last stretch of the 04-05 season. I know that was a "no-pressure" situation. I don't care. They played great ball -- proving that it is indeed possible. Baron looked like superman. JRich had no problem with fewer touches. Troy was poppin threes. MDJ was taking over at times. Foyle even had a few double-doubles. And Pietrus looked like a gazelle. Okay, that was according to Barnett. Still, they've shown they can play at a high level.

Now, if they could do it consistently. Not play perfect. Just play close to what they produced during that stretch. That would be playoff worthy.

What I've been trying to envision lately is: what'll it take to kick that motor back into gear? A new coach? An attitude change in the current coach? MDJ getting assertive and filling his role? Baron being more responsible with the ball and in better shape? JRich becoming more vocal? A combination of things?

This roster can do it, I believe. The one glaring weakness is a strong, solid center who can produce consistently. But I will assume, for the sake of this thread, that between Taft, Biedrins, POB, Adonal, and that 7'2" Serbian dude, that one player will emerge as a good, solid starting NBA center. We don't need an all-star there -- just someone who will rebound, contest shots, and take up space in the paint.

But looking at this "starting 4" of Baron, JRich, MDJ, and Troy, this looks great on paper to me. I've had negative comments about Troy and especially MDJ. I hold to those criticisms. But I still think these guys can grow, blossom, and eventually produce like they've been paid to do.

What I've been asking myself is what is the missing ingredient to making this show a smooth, fluid, exciting playoff experience?

If I had to give one answer, I'd say... well, frankly, a player exactly like MDJ. Why? Fair question. I've been harping on getting a big, thick, strong, solid enforcer at the center position. So, assuming we find at least a reasonable likeness to that from one of our current corps, I think the biggest thing we need is a facilitator.

1.) Baron needs to control the ball. He needs it, and this team needs it. It's so easy for people to complain about how he's a ball-hog, and shoots a poor FG%. But please, look back to when Speedy Claxton and Derek Fisher were running the show. This team had absolutely no swagger and no confidence. No one was vocal. No one blew up on the court. No one got the fans on their feet. Frankly IMO we needed a player exactly like Baron Davis, and to me he is the best thing that has happened to this franchise in a decade. He has lit a fire under JRich's ass and brought some seriously needed muchismo to this lackluster roster.

Plus, he's one of the most dominant point guards in the game. He can dominate. Period. No one in this game can stop him one-on-one. Sure he has room for improvement in some areas, but so do Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant. He needs to shoot less threes. And shoot better freethrows. But you know what, for what he does for this roster and for this team, I'll take all of his flaws with a smile.

2.) Jrich has established himself -- and dammit he's straight up earned it -- as a legit go-to scorer. He has gotten tougher, more aggressive, become a better outside shooter, a better dribbler, a better rebounder, and he derserves to take 20 shots a night. Sure he has his flaws too -- freethrows, off hand dribbling, defense -- but he's there. If he continues to improve the way he always has, he'll be All-Star worthy.

3.) Troy or Ike at the 4. In both cases, you have a scorer there. Ike gets it done inside and he wants the ball, needs the ball. Feed the beast! He's so damn crafty in the paint it's like watching a 32 year old vet with his array of moves. Yep, he's got flaws too -- defense, rebounding, and most importantly passing out of the double team. But he deserves to get touches and take shots.
Same for Troy. He has established himself as a good shooting big man who can drain the three. Remember when he first came to the league? No one said "three point shooter." I know I never expected that from him. Then one year, he comes into camp lighting it up like Nowitzki. then he came out and averaged one of the highest 3pt% in the league for the first half of the season. Not exactly what I'd like from a big man. I'd rather have him setting up shop in the paint like Ike. But bottom line is Troy also deserves touches and deserves to take some shots.


Where am I going with this?

The Warriors have enough scorers. Between the PG, SG, and PF, they have enough touches and shots to last the ball game. Good touches and shots too. I don't mind those three positions (and 4 possible players mentioned) taking the bulk of the shots for GS. With a good rebounding/shot blocking center.... hmm, well, what does that leave us with? a SF.

What kind of SF? Thus the theme of my post. My answer: a guy just like MDJ. What is my ideal candidate:

1.)Doesn't need many shots to be productive

2.)Moves well without the ball

3.)Sets intelligent picks

4.)Can set people up with intelligent passes

5.)Runs the floor intelligently

6.)Understands the plays and knows where to be on the floor

7.)Knows how to stay out of the way

8.)Can dribble well and protect the basketball

9.)Can get out and run the fastbreak himself

These are the traits that I think constitute the missing ingredient. The term "facilitator" is often thrown around. We've got the shooters. What we need is someone who can be involved with the game -- with every play -- in a variety of ways, and doesn't get caught standing around asleep at the wheel. Eduardo Najara is another good example of this type of ingredient. So is Brian Cardinal. So is Boris Diaw. They are basketball players -- not scorers, or defenders, or rebounders, or point guards -- but players.

A good dose of MDJ is exactly what this team needs to get that funky flow running again. It can happen. But it's going to take some change.

MDJ needs to get his ass involved. I don't know if it was Baron being resistant to incorperate him. Frankly I think those two players work extremely well together, if they'd just trust eachother. They're both intelligent. I don't know if it was Monty not urging him to get involved or not calling plays for him. I don't know if it was JRich not deferring to him enough. ..

Wait, I know what it was. Derek Fisher. That guy could make any teammate give up on a game. I've played with guys like that. He's an awesome citizen, a terrific person, and built like a rock. But while his body is built like a rock, so is his chrome dome. Derek Fisher will always believe he is Jordan. He's "point-four" and that's all there is to it. He pounded the ball twice as much as Baron Davis, and the poor guy isn't even suited to the point guard position either. He couldn't run a break to save his life.

This may be an obscure insight, but I believe Derek Fisher was a significant reason why Dunleavy "underachieved" this past year. Fisher just doesn't understand the complex flow of how an offense runs. MDJ would come flying off an improv screen, having just freed himself for 2 seconds, and Fisher would stare blankly at Mike's achievement, pound the ball for another six seconds, and hoist a three over the outstretched arms of a double-team. He'd make some of those too, dammit. Which only boosted his confidence. But my point is Derek Fisher was the main PG for the Warriors last year and he didn't understand how to take advantage of his teammates' strengths.

I believe that because Derek Fisher is gone, MDJ will have a more productive role next year.

I truely think Baron understands more what MDJ is capable of. But, in addition, it'll either be McCleod running the back-up, or MDJ himself, and in either case the ball will find it's way into his hands more.

But this is only one aspect. A few more things need to happen. Mainly MDJ needs to feel that sense of urgency. This is it. Make or break. Sure he's already signed, but if he doesn't produce this year, he'll either be benched or traded. Plus laughed at. He knows this. He needs to step up and be aggressive in his role. The good thing about that is, the more aggressive and assertive he becomes, the better he'll make his teammates. His game gets other people involved. Whe Kobe feels that "sense of urgency," he jacks up 40 shots instead of 30. MDJ should demand the ball more, but he won't just jack up shots. Rather he'll help run plays and make things happen. He'll force issues, recognize mismatches, and make intelligent passes to set his teammates up.

I won't mind a Harriongton trade if it'll shake things up and jump-start this collection of talent. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder: Can Al Harrington be productive without touches? That's what it comes down to. He's a great scorer, and will provide a nice option for Baron to go to off the drive, but really -- do you want him getting the 20+ shots a night? I've already established IMO that we have 3 other positions that deserve the shots. I want JRich getting his. And I want Baron getting his while creating plays. With Ike/Troy deserving of shots, will Harrington really be ready to defer? And what can he give if he's not getting his shots? I can't quite answer that. It may be that he's the perfect thing for the Warriors, especially if it's Murphy for Harrington straight up.

But honestly, the more I think about it, on paper this current roster -- just the way it is -- makes sense. Given a solid center emerges. MDJ has his weaknesses, no doubt. He is an under-average defender, though he has gotten better in that area. He needs to stop trying to draw charges and get a little tougher and tenacious in guarding his man. He had a poor shooting year as well. But I think that'll improve with D-Fish gone. I really do. He'll get better looks if Boom-Dizzle can stay healthy.

To me, on paper, the Warriors have what it takes at positions 1 through 4. If one out of the five centers they have can become a good, solid starting defender/shot blocker, the sky's the limit. The missing ingredient? It's already there. It just needs to be added. A healthy does of the real MDJ.


Okay. Fire away. Just keep it civilized.

 

Jeez Alley Oop. One of the funniest posts I have ever read. You really outdid yourself.



I mean we have Clown College Coach who has already come out and said that One Glaring Weakness will be our starting center until someone takes his job away.



But we have guys like One Minute Man (Biedrins), Cheesecakes (POB), ER (Taft), The Serbian Guy (Perovic) to try and take his job, so we are set there.



Or the only thing this team has to do is play like the end of season two seasons ago when the games didn't count and the schedule was easy in order to reach the playoffs. That was really a knee slapper.



But the best one was we need a guy like MDJ to kickstart our team to the playoffs. And lo and behold we have him -- MDJ himself.



Ouch. My sides hurt.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">
The Warriors have enough scorers. Between the PG, SG, and PF, they have enough touches and shots to last the ball game. Good touches and shots too. I don't mind those three positions (and 4 possible players mentioned) taking the bulk of the shots for GS. With a good rebounding/shot blocking center.... hmm, well, what does that leave us with? a SF.

What kind of SF? Thus the theme of my post. My answer: a guy just like MDJ. What is my ideal candidate:

1.)Doesn't need many shots to be productive

2.)Moves well without the ball

3.)Sets intelligent picks

4.)Can set people up with intelligent passes

5.)Runs the floor intelligently

6.)Understands the plays and knows where to be on the floor

7.)Knows how to stay out of the way

8.)Can dribble well and protect the basketball

9.)Can get out and run the fastbreak himself
</div>
If Dunleavy, on paper and in real life, was that player that'd be great. Then we experienced, nba ready bigs. Of the guys we've drafted, the only guy I feel safe about is Ike Diogu, but even he needs to learn how to adjust with his height. If he's guarding Dirk Nowitzki, that's a tough matchup... We need a very tall small forward for that kind of thing. In that case, more athletic Troy Murphy who could block shots, would be nice...

I agree we need to start playing more like a team than just individual guys playing for stats. That requires chemistry and position players that fit and all offer a valuable role in making each other BETTER on BOTH ends of the floor in ANY tempo. Even if we can't be the most dominant defensive/offensive/running/halfcourt team, we can at least adapt and expose a weakness on the other team while hiding our own weaknesses. The Warriors have too many flaws and most other teams recognize these flaws. Unfortunately, there's not much one can do with these players that don't know how to play team defense, they don't get back in transition defense in time, they don't make free throws, they don't work at getting better shots, they don't hit open shots, the list goes on... Some fans may think we have something, but I think it's the love for the Warriors talking there. The team could improve if they had a guy like Mike Dunleavy Sr. as coach, but that's only if the GM puts that coach in a position to succeed (like when the Clippers made a big trade to strengthen their backcourt so they could make Elton Brand and Chris Kaman better). I think Monty can succeed, but Mullin has been doing a horrible job of putting the right players that can play together in front of Montgomery. Just look at what damage was done in the offseasons of '04 and '05. Down right crappy. I don't care if Baron Davis was healthy, one or two players on the outside aren't going to do it. Too many shots from the outside because our big players don't do the roles their position requires and we're lousy on defense in the same transition game we're supposed to thrive in. Then when we try to play halfcourt, the same defensive problems and offensive problems occur. These starting players in '04 were bad, bad investments.

I keep saying that inside-outside play and a good defense will win games. Good inside and outside play is where good ball movement thrives if semi-smart players can recognize this and also fully take advantage of their physical attributes like size, strength, quickness, jumping ability. If 3 or 4 guys out there can make good decisions with the ball, make shots, and finish plays and the guys off the bench can do some of the same, we should be able to compete in a lot of ways. We still need a star player on the outside and a star player on the inside that can step up when the pressure is on (whether its creating a difficult shot and hitting it, making free throws, putting the offensive/defensive pressure singlehandedly on the other team). But finding even that has been hard... We've been sort of forced to play small.

I'm just not sure we're playoff bound yet, but Mullin seems to recognize that you need size, touches in the paint, a midrange game, and more defensive toughness to compete in this conference. The big thing is patience because big men, in general, take a long time to develop. And a lot of them may not be that good or offer multiple dimensions like guys like Elton Brand, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Shaq. That's risky business for the warriors to be in need of a big man and we've never drafted good big men in all these years we've missed the playoffs. The closest we've had was Antwan Jamison who is more in-between any true position than any of the current Warriors. The rest were all busts or role players. Arenas-Jamison may fly out East, but it doesn't work so well in the West or we would have been there in 2002.

Anyway the lack of a quality big player that plays like a big player, is the pattern I saw. We want to give the Warriors management and the coaching the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard because there's so much inexperience and lack of vision in creating a team versus seasoned guys who already know how to build something because they've been there before. I'm not sure being a former nba player or a former college coach could adjust to their jobs right off the bat, but I'd like to give them a chance. Rebuilding a team takes a while and it means you get a pass or two at it before the window of opportunity closes.

It's also not hard to see that the nba is a player's league, it's about money, supply and demand, and it's about being in a position to win because of careful planning and backup measures. Gms try to play the market, they try to have backup plans, they try to worry about the future and also pay attention to the now. We just don't have a good team and IMO it has largely to do with team salary, the luxury tax, and the way the GM created a whole lot inflexibility in preparing for the future back in '04 and '05. The future is the rookies, yet he's heavily invested in veterans that don't get it done on both ends of the floor. Or they settle for a style of basketball that gets them burnt. The Warriors have got to have the physical talent and mindset to play together organized when the other team is pressuring them hard. Otherwise, it just becomes one versus 5 ball and we settle for long threes when there's nothing there and guys can't penetrate because they're too slow or the other team is packing in the middle. Guys who typically suck at free throws also don't like to drive as much because it means they'll probably be intentionally fouled hard or roughed up on the way to the basket.

We want to play open court ball because we don't have any other opportunity to break down defenses when they're set, but we still need the balance in the areas where we are weak in. Running doesn't solve anything unless you can outproduce the other team. We've never been able to win consistently because our flaws on offense and defense are too great.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">We want to play open court ball because we don't have any other opportunity to break down defenses when they're set, but we still need the balance in the areas where we are weak in.
</div>

I disagree here, CR2. IMO we still haven't seen a full season with a healthy Baron Davis. Maybe we never will. But If we do this year, like I've stated before, he'll vie for top PG in the league. And he can break down defenses all day. I know he had his shortcomings last year, but IMO he is the centerpiece of this team and if GS can plug in those missing ingredients (solid center and versitile SF) they'll be a solid playoff team no question.

IMO when healthy, Baron Davis is one of the best players in the game.

There are several factors which the Warriors playoff chances hinge on. Obviously they need a solid starter at center. And they need a healthy Baron Davis. And they need production at the SF position.

The talent to break down defenses is there. Last year I saw alot of hesitation, indecision, and standing around at the three-point arc. But Baron wasn't the only one camping at that line. Troy was set there all day. Fisher too. Even JRich and Pietrus would plant their toes on the arc and wait to see what happened.

My above point about the end of the 04-05 season was that we have seen flashes of brilliance, so it is possible. During that stretch there was a ton of movement without the ball. The injection of Boom-Dizzle into that linup was a high-octane boost for that lack-luster roster. Of course it was a "no-pressure" situation already out of the playoffs. But they played exceptionally well nonetheless. Baron got to the rack at will. JRich got pumped up and energized. MDJ had several brillaint games (amidst the many no-shows) and even Foyle got a little pumped and had a few double-doubles. Seeing Foyle doing the "chest-bump" with BD was priceless lol. But that stretch was fun, exciting, and they ran other playoff teams out of the gym. So the recipe is there. Cooking up that dish when it matters -- during playoff contention -- is the issue.

How to do it? I've bashed on Dunleavy probably more than most. He may score 3 points on 2 for 19 shooting, but he'll take like 27 charges and look like Einstein doing it, yeah?

But what I'm saying is if he'd only produce like he's been expected to, that'd be the missing ingredient for me. Because the issue seems to be chemistry. Foyle's contract is terrible, obviously, but I'm assuming for the sake of this thread that at least one starter will emerge out of the 5 centers we have. That's 1 out of 5, not too much to ask IMO. But looking at the 1-4 starters, the talent is there. They've shown it. Dunleavy has sucked ass IMO for most of his career. He's way underachieved. At times, he's shown flashes of what potential he has. He'll go 25 points 12 rebounds 7 assists. But then he'll go 2 for 23 his next two games. The point to this thread is that if Dunleavy played like the "real MDJ," and gave 15-5-5, that'd be the missing ingredient, IMO. Whether he's capable of that is the question.

If I were on the free agent market for a SF, though, I wouldn't be looking for a guy like Al Harrington to compliment this roster. He needs too many shots and I'd rather have Baron going to the rack and freethrow line and JRich getting 20+shots a night. I'd look for a guy at the SF position that could either play lockdown defense, or could be productive on offense without a lot of shots. And if we can't find a defender (Pietrus has been unable to claim the role) then I'd be looking for a guy like what MDJ has been expected to be. Obviously he hasn't filled those shoes. That's why this is it. Many people say his time has already expired. It's too late to "salvage" his career. But like it or not, he's still on this roster and probably won't be traded (because no one wants his contract). So this is it. If he can flourish with a healthy Baron Davis (and I think playing with BD for 75+ games rather than Fisher will help) he could very well fill the role that Mullin has been begging him to fill for the last several years. Maybe. Maybe not. But if he does, that very well could be the missing ingredient to a playoff run.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">
I mean we have Clown College Coach who has already come out and said that One Glaring Weakness will be our starting center until someone takes his job away.



But we have guys like One Minute Man (Biedrins), Cheesecakes (POB), ER (Taft), The Serbian Guy (Perovic) to try and take his job, so we are set there.
</div>


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">You gotta give AB more of a chance since he's only 20. Let's see how he'll be two years from now.

Same with POB. With POBs size and ability to muscle up, we finally have somebody in the paint. I wasn't sure if he was another Erick Dampier with his attitude, but have to trust Mullin on that one.</div>

lol why the sudden dip in optimism jason vorhees?

I'd say take your own advice and "give AB more of a chance. Same with POB." Both of those guys could very well emerge as a starter at some point, wouldn't you agree?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> Maybe he finally puts his blueprint on the team this year, but I still have no idea who he wants this team to be.</div>

I don't think he'll ever put his blueprint on the team. And if he does -- like you say -- it'll probably mean reeling in Baron Davis and slowing it down to a half court set, which would not be catering to his players' strengths.

No, Montgomery has failed IMO and it's just a matter of time with his job. I'd love to see Mario Elie given a chance but even then who knows. I agree that there is a question of identity on this team and it starts at the top. When Montgomery doesn't set the tone, lay down the law and establish what type of team he wants to have on the court, then you're bound to have problems. Players can sense that lack of confidence and leadership.

But as far as personnel goes, the starting cast for the Warriors (assuming a decent center emerges from their pool of bigs) is playoff caliber, IMO. I think your issue of identity and the issue of "chemistry" go hand in hand. I really believe that if Baron can stay healthy and be the leader of this team, and if Dunleavy can step up and fulfill the unkept promises of lottery talent he's been paid for, things will fall into place. JRich knows how to play with Baron now. Ike sure as heck does. Baron and Ike are like peanut butter and jelly. Troy was still figuring it out, and ended up settling for a lot of threes. But with Fisher gone, if Baron can stay healthy and be the mainstay at PG, I don't think we'll see the type of stagnation we have in the past. IMO.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure, an up-tempo ofense won't get us a chamionship but a grind it out tempo really wastes the talent we have and it won't even get us remotely close to getting into the playoffs.</div>

Good point. I think an important point to note here is that in slow-it-down halfcourt sets, every rebound matters. Because you set up, the defense has time to establish inside and seal off for rebounds. This is why undersized teams usually try to run uptempo, because they don't have the bigs to bang down inside and secure a second shot attempt.

The Warriors have always been under-manned in the paint the last few years. When it was Fortson and Dampier, that was a differnt story. But now, with the 6'10" Foyle averaging less than 6 rebounds a game as the starting center, GS doesn't get much there. And with the only good rebounder in Troy Murphy spending so much time on the perimeter, he isn't able to alter as many shots and rebounds and help his teammates collect the loose ball. Often having a guy with size means he seals off the opposition and lets his teammate grab the loose board. But with this roster, a half-court set means one-n-done.

It all boils down to utilizing the talent available. If you have basil, tomatoes, olive oil, garlic, and pine nuts, you don't get stubborn and try to make pasta alfredo. You make pesto, dammit. The ingredients are there. Now it's time to cook up the appropriate dish

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree here, CR2. IMO we still haven't seen a full season with a healthy Baron Davis. Maybe we never will. But If we do this year, like I've stated before, he'll vie for top PG in the league. And he can break down defenses all day. I know he had his shortcomings last year, but IMO he is the centerpiece of this team and if GS can plug in those missing ingredients (solid center and versitile SF) they'll be a solid playoff team no question.
</div>
I can kind of tell you skipped over some things...

It's like, why are you disagreeing with me when we're talking about the same thing? I was talking about Fisher and Foyle as Mullin's intended starters, not Baron. We had Baron for only one regular season considering how often he was hurt and when he actually arrived in Oakland. No, Fisher-Foyle was the original '04 signings that was meant to hold the team together for at least 4 years because they both got 5-6 year guaranteed money. Before those horrible signings, we were basically a running team that could play some halfcourt, and we became a "nothing" team just by "solidifying" Fisher and Foyle at the 1 and 5 spots. Claxton/NVE backcourt + Dampier + Cliffy was better than Claxton/Fisher backcourt + Foyle + Murphy. Kwan can probably prove the '03 team was more productive and efficient, whereas the '04 and '05 backcourt/frontcourts were weaker especially when it comes to guaranteed dollars over a period of time.

And just like any sensible Warrior fan, we all pretty much have faith in a player like Baron Davis. That is if he can stay healthy and do his job in making everyone better, not shoot us out of games and brick at the free throw line or stay hurt for most of the year when we need him. There's not one-allstar that can get away with such poor shooting unless they make everyone else better. But between Jason Kidd who just can't shoot very well and Baron Davis, I'd rather have Jason Kidd because he knows when to say when and he's healthier than Baron Davis is. Plus, he's still better at the foul line. The Nets probably were more geared for the fastbreak style of play as they could execute in transition offensively and defensively. Whereas we only operate offensively in transition and we're not too good at finishing inside or knocking down the wide open shot and getting back in transition defense if we miss.

 

Oh -- maybe I misunderstood you, but I did read the entire post. I was referring to not being able to break down a defense when it is set. IMO Baron can do that. But about the rest of your post -- I completely agree.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">The missing ingredient IMO is finding an identity for this team. I've watched a fair share of Warrior games the last few seasons and try to listen to KNBR when I'm in the Bay Area to get Rick Barry's take on the team.

Barry has made the comment quite a few times, and I agree with him, the team has no identity.
</div>

Rick Barry has said a lot of things and there's a reason why. There's not one factor that hasn't attributed to the Warriors losing. From top to bottom, there's been tons of problems and it's overwhelming to name them all. Like any bad organization, the crap tends to flow downstream. All these problems combined are the reason why the Warriors hold the league's longest playoff drought.

The bottomline is we're lacking everything outside of one-dimensional scoring. We don't have good defense, we don't have good setup players, we don't have guys who know how to play as a team and also fit together as a team. We're still a patchwork quilt like we were in 2002 with lots of tweeners, but this time less all-star talent that can stay healthy and stay honest at the foul line or shoot high %'s.

The team has no identity because it doesn't have strong positions in the areas needed the most like inside play or playmaking. When our talent is mostly in the backcourt, our team becomes a high volume shooting backcourt with very low inside presence. It's especially hard when those guys don't make their foul shots and the other three positions of SF/PF/C don't really play that consistently or do their jobs in the paint to support and reward talented backcourt play.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
Baron Davis and JRich are the obvious leaders of this team, but they don't seem sure about whether or not to play uptempo or play a halfcourt type offense. This leads to low percentage shots and players getting trigger happy from 3 point land.
</div>

I agree they need to stop shooting threes, which is why inside presence, off the ball movement, the extra pass, and dribble penetration is necessary. The need both tempos so they can adjust according to their opponent, but more importantly, they need other three players that can fit in with Baron/Jrich and how they operate as star players. We also can't overpay the other positions because several max paid players can't possibly stay together for long. Just look at why the Nets broke up their Kmart/Kidd/Jefferson trio. It's als how Run TMC broke up. Also why there are rumors of Marion being dealt because of Nash/Stoudamire being max paid players. They also need more defense because our offense cannot be dominant with just ballhandling guards shooting from outside or trying to dribble inside with our big men doing virtually nothing as paint players on offense and contributing very little on defense or rebounding... We need strong forwards and centers like any of the playoff teams in the West.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
When the Warriors had Musselman you had an idea of how he wanted the team to play and the players' understood their role. I think the current roster is a lot more talented, but they haven't figured out how they want to beat teams.
</div>
I like Musselman's pragmatism and how he stood up to the front office, but I disagree with current roster being more talented overall or Musselman having more clearly defined roles than Monty. The 2002 and 2003 rosters were a lot more talented at the point guard positions and big man spots in terms of depth overall and also at the most important positions. The guards could provide dribble penetration, free throw shooting, passing, performance down the stretch and Erick Dampier could at least post up inside and make defenses want to play him closely. Plus Jamison or Richardson could fill in with points, despite not being setup players. Guys like Boykins/Claxton gave us a lot of quickness that forced defenses to play off to get a shot off or to double team, getting another guy open. Our entire game right now thrives off of dribble penetration because our big men do nothing for us... the only guy that really dribble penetrates well is Baron Davis. And when he goes down, we get Derek Fisher, who is nothing like Nick Van Exel even at 80% healthy.

Also, Nick Van Exel complained about the team not having clearly defined roles or identity and that the plays were too predictable (probably for the benefit of rookies). This also might have been before Jason Richardson came into his own that NVE made the comment. JRich was too inconsistent to be a star. But, it showed we were clueless back then as we are now in trying to get guys incompatible with each other, to play like a team. I've been saying for the longest time that we need our point guard to play like a point guard and are big men to start playing like big men. Or else it's another season of mediocrity and developing more perimeter talent that will just go to some other team. There's no other easy formula other than to build a talented starting five and just manage the budget wisely the way the Pistons have. We could do it the Grizzlies way, but we'd need a star paint player and for the GM to make the right trades for good veteran talent. We seem to get stuck with the crappy vet guys unless we trade for them or they're already washing up. Even if we had the veterans, the plays still need to be dumbed down for the rookies so they can play for stats. In 2002, everybody was about stats and ballhogging it, but we can argue it was all-star talented, even though it wasn't a real team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
I see a lot of one on one play when I watch the Warriors and I rarely see any adjustments made during the half. Most of the time it's give the ball to Baron and fly by the seat of your pants.
</div>
It's because everybody outside of guards don't do anything. Part of it is organization and not having the point guard really call out plays. The other is the plays may not work for some reason or the other (maybe guys haven't practiced or they don't remember what to do).

Then there's also we have too many guys that look to score or look lost with the ball. It's hard to make somebody a passer when their instincts are much like Jamal Crawford or Stephon Marbury. When in doubt, shoot it! Too many guys look to shoot rather than make the extra pass. I wouldn't mind if guys shot the ball and actually made it, but we're talking a team that took one of the most amount of three point attempts and failed to convert. The long missed threes + our slow, unathletic, weak transition D caused us to get scored on in a matter of seconds...

Also, our plays don't often work with the type of guys we have inside and outside, and we've relied on dribble penetration to get something done because guys don't know how to move off the ball quickly enough to get open. We have guys stand around or take one-pass shots instead of hitting another guy who can score much closer to the basket (again the reason we don't do this is because guys lack the hands to catch or people lack the creativity or court awareness or passing instincts). Also, the quickness (foot speed/hustle) and intelligence (floor spacing/decision-making) of how we move to get open isn't getting people the room to shoot high % shots. Plus, I don't think we have very good natural shooters, we have guys who can't finish or they just choke. The other thing is Baron Davis, he frankly doesn't like plays. He just likes to make things up as he goes along or else he would have worked harder in organizing the team and instructing them what to do. A point guard has to let his team know where to be when he makes his move. Frankly, I don't want the point guard dominating the entire ball to be effective and he's become that player. Even if the team doesn't reward him with assists, he still has to make others better and keep working at it. We need secondary ballhandlers and passers to swing the ball around side to side, and the inside players to go to inside and kick it back out. On top of all that, we just need high % scorers that when they get the ball, they can choose quickly if they want to score or set up another player. If they hit a high % shot it won't matter if the ball moves around that much, but the Warriors had been getting sloppy with the shot selection and holding onto the ball when there's better options to hit.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
The Warriors never seem to play to their strengths and exploit other teams. This roster is loaded with offensive players, with speed, quickness, and athleticism. Why not open up the offense and just flat out run every one in the league?
</div>

For every strength the Warriors have, there are a lot of weaknesses to exploit on defense. It's like Saving Private Ryan, "tracers point both ways." It means that when you fire a machine gun from a hidden location, the enemy can see where the bullets are coming from and can shoot you down if you don't take them down first. A lot of times we can't finish plays, we can't beat transition defenses so we're stuck in a halfcourt situation, or we can't shoot when teams pack in the middle. Basketball almost always is about shooting or else it wouldn't be basketball. We have guys that just aren't all-around shooters in the way they create or knock down open shots from 3-point land or at the foul line. We got chokers.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
Trying to change Baron Davis into a halfcourt PG and grinding it out isn't working and it ruins the flow of the offense. I think most of the Warriors' defense is a product of their offense, and when the ball isn't falling they don't give any effort on defense.
</div>
It's lose lose situation because when Baron Davis dominates the ball and very few of our other players get touches, that alone ruins the flow of the offense. Point guards have to score within the flow or else they're not point guards, they're undersized shooting guards. What really ruins the flow, is that our inside guys don't set up our outside scorers and Dunleavy hasn't ever performed consistently in one single month. Foyle can't catch and Murphy/Pietrus doesn't know what to do with the ball other than to shoot. Dunleavy can't shoot. We need the extra pass from guys in the paint and we need guys who can score from almost anywhere, but especially close range and from outside when wide open. This definitely means Dunleavy, whose lack of speed and strength require him to be a good shooter if he wants to make an impact in the league. He doesn't really dribble penetrate or make use of his 6'10 size. So he's become useless as a starter, unless his job is soley to pass or handle the ball some. It's basically like having a roleplaying point guard that can't score or dribble penetrate, which these days doesn't sit well with most teams who need a guy that can stretch and attack defenses.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
I don't think Monty has the right pieces to run his system. I don't see the offensive creativity coming from him at all. Maybe he finally puts his blueprint on the team this year, but I still have no idea who he wants this team to be.</div>

That I agree with. But since the team wasn't that great before he got here, I can pretty much assume he's not going to win like any other coach put in his position. We don't have a team to play any style because the pieces just don't fit, especially our big men fitting in with our guards. It was designed all wrong and imbalanced with a lot of inflexibility to make changes. Mullin made this happen and he's the guy to blame. He's got to fix it because the next guy coming in could be just as bad. The organization has no clue how to hire the right people to work out a proper team design and a future plan that works under budget.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh -- maybe I misunderstood you, but I did read the entire post. I was referring to not being able to break down a defense when it is set. IMO Baron can do that. But about the rest of your post -- I completely agree.</div>

Oh sorry. No, I meant Baron can attack a set defense, but it's harder because what do the other four players do, especially when Dunleavy can't knock down an outside shot, Murphy emulates an outside shooter, and Foyle is pretty much useless. That's like 3 on 5 ball where Jrich may not be open very much unless he gets a lot of picks and screens. The ball not going inside is due to Murphy not being that type of player or Foyle not being able to catch.

The other thing too is if Baron really wants to score, he's got to have his teammates set him up too. It's easier to score high %'s when other guys take the pressure off him and all players on the court are cohesive as one unit. Like the alley-oop pass from Dunleavy to Baron was one form of what we lack in terms of high-post playmaking. Dunleavy is in fact, involved in a lot of plays to set up our scoring guards, but his horrible shooting and very unnoticeable intangibles outweigh the positives of his game. He's just a choker, but his ability to add to a team are things we lack from big guys who don't score inside. A guy like Brad Miller could help us, but we have no big man playmaker from the high post. Murphy is not that guy (lame comparrison because you have to be creative and pretty high basketball I.Q. first) and Foyle is clueless. So Clueless he didn't even start after he was signed in '04, Clifford Robinson had to start at center since he was an excellent passer. I'm sure Ike Diogu or Zarko Cabarkapa or any smart player who knows how to pass and when to pass can make other guys like Baron Davis better.

So that's generally why I crap all over our big men because they're not doing much better for us than what Cliff/motivated Damp brought us. Dunleavy is far from perfect, but he does the things that will make scorers, score a lot easier. That's more than what we can say about another selfish scorer that just doesn't know how to instinctively look to pass if there's a chance to pass. Dunleavy needs to work on his shot and to grow some balls and get more aggressive, because his passing/glue type game and career as a starter depends on it. We can't fix the slowness and the weakness, though... All he's got his finesse and good bball instincts, but his lack of finesse lately and his lack of aggressiveness cause him to be one of the most frustrating players to watch. He's not like a Brian Cardinal or Ike Diogu in terms of energy and his shots don't fall when we need them to like with BC and Ike. The dukie/flopper is a choker.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Running the P&R with Baron and Murphy or JRich and Murphy would give the Warriors a high percentage shot each time.</div>

I agree. I think the P&R with Baron and Ike is the most lethal though. Once Ike learns how to run it without moving early and fouling on the screen, that'll be unstoppable. Often he gets too anxious and starts his roll before the pick has run its course. He'll sort of hedge and put his shoulder into the defender as he makes his spin into the lane, and this often draws the offensive foul. Once he learns how to time his move, the pick-n-roll between Baron and Ike will be cash money.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> Maybe the Warriors need to add some specialists who don't need touches to be effective?</div> Yep.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">According to Monty playing an up-tempo style like the Suns is "fool's gold". And this is my biggest problem with Monty, he forces his college system on the team when we clearly don't have the roster to be successful in that style. He doesn't have a vastly superior roster to other teams like he did at Stanford, hes got average players who can't create their own shots. We were clearly a much better team when we out ran opposing teams, it only makes sense really since we've got so many players who can't create for themselves but alot of players who can shoot and finish off of good feeds. Sure, an up-tempo ofense won't get us a chamionship but a grind it out tempo really wastes the talent we have and it won't even get us remotely close to getting into the playoffs.</div>
I think every GM who has inherited the Warriors messy situation has been "lost". We try to win with what we have and there's very few moves we can do to improve, unless its through the draft. The draft still hasn't brought us a major building block/foundation like Duncan, a D-wade, a Kevin Garnett, a starting five like the Pistons (and they acquired their guys through trade and before the guys blew up). Billups/Hamilton/Wallace. Not really thought of as the ideal backcourt or true center. But hey, defense speaks for itself and it wins championships, so long as you have an answer for the other team on offense. It's all about controlling the tempo throughout the entire game.

But I agree that if we're building around the backcourt, then our front court needs to go if we want to play uptempo. We need an athletic, secondary scoring version of Dunleavy or else the ball won't move much unless its between guard and the other guard. I think the answer is hopefully that Ike is the guy that can take 10 or 14 shot attempts around the bucket and can be highly efficient scoring and getting to the free throw line. If we get something like 7 out of 14 on field goals + a few trips to the foul line. That's like 17 or 18 points right there + rebounds + blocks + maybe two assists. Plus, there's the intangibles that Ike can give us that Murphy or Foyle don't really naturally play.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">lol why the sudden dip in optimism jason vorhees?

I'd say take your own advice and "give AB more of a chance. Same with POB." Both of those guys could very well emerge as a starter at some point, wouldn't you agree?</div>

What's really getting me down is the Warriors have not executed the Al Harrington deal yet. They need to shake some things up and getting rid of Murphy would do it. With a coach like Monty, he won't play Ike unless he has to. If Murphy is gone, then he should start Ike at PF.

Next, AL should start at SF and should form a pretty good trio with Baron and JRich. Now we've upgraded the front line at two positions even if Foyle starts ahead of AB. Eventually, I see AB taking over for Foyle and we have a pretty good starting lineup with Dunleavy and Monta coming off the bench. With Murphy out of his way, I expect Dun to score a lot more and get more assists. Maybe he'll be more consistent as a 6th man or guy off the bench. Both he and Monta should get a lot of minutes.

If we don't execute the AL deal, then likely we will end up keeping Murphy for at least another year. His contract will be too hard to trade and again we'll have Baron, JRich, Dunleavy, Foyle and Murphy as starters. I'm just not optimistic about that lineup as it caused so many disappointments last season.

The main thing is to improve the front line. We have POB and Perovic, two big men now, but they aren't ready to play anytime soon. They will take a while to develop like AB. Mullin needs to improve the front line now or else we are going to suck and draft again.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">Mullin needs to improve the front line now or else we are going to suck and draft again.</div>

I'd so give 5 mil to 'Zo to play for us next year. He's damn old but he's still a top 10 center in the league.

 

Whew...lots of heavy concepts to sort out. I'll have to go over it all when I'm a bit more wide awake.

Up top,Alley Oop hit a few points I see as pretty key,that the 05 Post Baron rennaisance had flow-chemistry-made opponents struggle with what WE dictated.

Then Monty put his "Blueprint" on the team...like an anchor chain...and as pointed out-Fisher was a big big part of it...the poster boy for Montyball.
Dunleavy? I can see how when his game clicks there is a lot of stuff-a range of skills. Sadly---consistantly hitting a 3 is not IN his toolbox-a fact he's failed-and failed to see.Mike can pass but too many of his assists are just passing around the 3 pt arc. He needs to be a guy who can relay the ball to a big man inside or a slasher -cutter,hit a backdoor pass etc. His first step quickness hurts him on both ends. If we ran The Fools Gold attack style-Pietrus would have a bigger share of SF-or J Rich with MP and Monta at SG.

I don't buy that players on this team have an agenda or priority that comes above wins. I don't think these guys are too numb and dumb to know team play-D-fundamental execution all matter. Are these players ALL unwilling? Do they have Chronic Loser Syndrome-some dark urge to self destruct? ALL of them?
What's the odds of that? What common thing can impact across the whole bunch-create a roster that you see working hard but running into a headwind as far as results go? Well,maybe its a tainted pre-game snack-but my guess is that the players ARE executing Monty's Big Plan and the Big Plan is rather like the one the French had in WW II. The footsoldiers were not unmotivated or unskilled-the plan sucked.

Some things-there are just limitations. Foyles Oven-Mitt hands can be improved a little-but he's more adrenalin than finnesse and it's not likely you get a turnaround. Murphy? It's a damn shame what's been done with him. he plainly is asked to focus on rebounds. He needs to be encouraged to rebound-but also play strong D. Early in his carreer,he got whistled a lot on proximity fouls-they got him to avoid that-but it meant D that's too cautious. With our depth at PF-we WANT Murph to be tough,aggressive on D,we don't NEED 35 minutes-we need 25 min at his MAX.

Monty has his rigid,little,system that has a generic sg doing this and a generic C doing that and it has little relevance for the specific players we have. Monty plugs Ike in as a C and he gets the same script as Foyle gets...probably the same script Tim Young had at Stanford.

With Fish gone,Monty is now problem #1. Foyle is only one of many C options,and mainly a problem in his relatively few touches. Monty has an unavoidable impact everywhere. I suppose if we wanted to dump the roster-start over.build around Monty's way,in some years-we could have a decent team. we could much easier wrap him in duct tape,leave him in the locker room and tell the players to just get out there and go for it. We'd do just as well.

At this point,I'd be building the base and finding a style,an identity,a Warrior's way. Fools Gold or not- I see up tempo and use everyone. I see PLAY the guys who we need to be big time in 2009. I don't much need some 30 yr old "big name" to help us get 5-6 extra wins in 07

 

I do agree with Custodian that Ike needs a big role. I feel that the idea of Murphy playing some C is still viable,because I see him as an untapped resource. I do not feel there is a hard limit on him adapting,doing things that have not been in his script. We invested in O'Bryant-Taft-Biedrens and must must must play those 3 the bulk of C minutes. Monty saying Foyle's the starter is just the frozen walnut size brain problem that had a pretty talented roster a late lotto loser. The Family dog knows Biedrens should start with Foyle seldom played more than 10 min. The fat contracts Foyle-Dun got? Why compound those misjudgements? Playing Foyle more will not make him good trade bait.

I suspect the Harrington deal is near dead. Atlanta seems to want too much. Last years lame showing especially made Murphy-Pietrus look bad,Monty managed to take 2 good young players and diminish their value. Actually-Murphy did make some nice late season adjustments-improving his efficiency-but then Fish became the PG and Murphy got no touches unless he stepped outside.