<div class="quote_poster">Quoting REREM:</div><div class="quote_post">Up top,Alley Oop hit a few points I see as pretty key,that the 05 Post Baron rennaisance had flow-chemistry-made opponents struggle with what WE dictated.</div> Assuming there are no further trades, I doubt we change our front line just to improve our chemistry with Monty. For example, his comments such as Foyle is the starting center until someone takes his job. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then Monty put his "Blueprint" on the team...like an anchor chain...and as pointed out-Fisher was a big big part of it...the poster boy for Montyball.</div> Monty seems to have already picked Mcleod versus Monta as backup PG. Maybe he sees him better for Montyball. Ellis would have more difficulties in a half court set. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Dunleavy? I can see how when his game clicks there is a lot of stuff-a range of skills. Sadly---consistantly hitting a 3 is not IN his toolbox-a fact he's failed-and failed to see.Mike can pass but too many of his assists are just passing around the 3 pt arc. He needs to be a guy who can relay the ball to a big man inside or a slasher -cutter,hit a backdoor pass etc. His first step quickness hurts him on both ends. If we ran The Fools Gold attack style-Pietrus would have a bigger share of SF-or J Rich with MP and Monta at SG.</div> Monty seems to say that the Warriors play better in the half court set and not The Fools Gold attack like the Suns. JMO. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't buy that players on this team have an agenda or priority that comes above wins. I don't think these guys are too numb and dumb to know team play-D-fundamental execution all matter. Are these players ALL unwilling? Do they have Chronic Loser Syndrome-some dark urge to self destruct? ALL of them? What's the odds of that? What common thing can impact across the whole bunch-create a roster that you see working hard but running into a headwind as far as results go? Well,maybe its a tainted pre-game snack-but my guess is that the players ARE executing Monty's Big Plan and the Big Plan is rather like the one the French had in WW II. The footsoldiers were not unmotivated or unskilled-the plan sucked. ... Monty has his rigid,little,system that has a generic sg doing this and a generic C doing that and it has little relevance for the specific players we have. Monty plugs Ike in as a C and he gets the same script as Foyle gets...probably the same script Tim Young had at Stanford. With Fish gone,Monty is now problem #1. Foyle is only one of many C options,and mainly a problem in his relatively few touches. Monty has an unavoidable impact everywhere. I suppose if we wanted to dump the roster-start over.build around Monty's way,in some years-we could have a decent team. we could much easier wrap him in duct tape,leave him in the locker room and tell the players to just get out there and go for it. We'd do just as well. At this point,I'd be building the base and finding a style,an identity,a Warrior's way. Fools Gold or not- I see up tempo and use everyone. I see PLAY the guys who we need to be big time in 2009. I don't much need some 30 yr old "big name" to help us get 5-6 extra wins in 07</div> Agreed. If things aren't working out too well early on in the season I can only hope that Mullin will see that what he envisions is not being passed down to the troops because of one certain "coach."
Good thoughts AlleyOop. The SF on this team should be like Danny Granger, I believe. Someone who is a strong defender, good rebounder, athletic, and able to produce offensively. However like you say, Mike Dunleavy has many characteristics that could almost fill that role. First off, he's tall and long, he can grab some boards, and he produces on offense at times. Where he falls is by not being a strong defender or athletic. What puts him way back, like you say, is his lack of assertion in the games and plays. It is strange to me that people will knock Baron a whole bunch for his play last season, but Mike Dunleavy was far more detrimental to this team, with his lack of production. Hopefully that improves. What makes this team talented and unique, is their bench that has tons of good young prospects who have good game. It's true that Baron/Jason/Mike/Troy/Adonal will not dominate every single game, or maybe more than half the games. However when you add Monta, Pietrus, Zarko, Ike, Taft, Andris, along with the new Jazz players, then the starting lineup's disadvantages can be filled and improved by this bench. The big problem is that Montgomery doesn't know how to use a bench, nor sub in a game. He is too slow and finding trends, mismatches, advantages, and disadvantages. Maybe Mario Elie, would be a better head coach for this team, because I'd bet he could sub players much more effectively than Montgomery. In the NBA, as a management group, it is extremely difficult to find or bring in a group of players/a roster that is going to be that much better than everyone else, that all they need is talent to win. This is the case especially in the Western Confrence. But going back to what AlleyOop said, this team has the playoff caliber talent. They just need to get an edge. AlleyOop noted this as chemistry and flow. I know one thing, and that is Montgomery will not give this team that edge to make the playoffs. I suppose finding that edge is the difficult thing to find for a franchise/fans of a team that hasn't had that edge for 12 years.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post">The big problem is that Montgomery doesn't know how to use a bench, nor sub in a game. He is too slow and finding trends, mismatches, advantages, and disadvantages.</div> Good point Clif. Montgomery often seemed to be late or questionable when changing match-ups or subbing. It's like he'd make a decision and then forget to monitor the decision. He'd pull JRich for a breather and then -- whoops -- JRich just sat out the last 8 minutes of the second quarter. WTF? I'm not sure how hard the college to NBA transition is, but I'd say Monty had problems with it. The mismanagement of timeouts and shot clocks at the end of games was another telling example. But he definately had problems with substitutions. And that's not only frustrating with the fans, it irks the players too. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post">They just need to get an edge. AlleyOop noted this as chemistry and flow. I know one thing, and that is Montgomery will not give this team that edge to make the playoffs. I suppose finding that edge is the difficult thing to find for a franchise/fans of a team that hasn't had that edge for 12 years.</div> Heck yeah I would have to agree. Look at the Suns after they lost Amare to injury a few years back. On paper, everyone had them as bottom feeders. Yet they tallied 62 winds and vaulted into the playoffs on a franchise year. On paper, that team looked decent but not excellent. Yet they rallied around Steve Nash and resolved to play within their roles. That Phoenix team was the definition of chemistry and "flow" IMO -- while their defense wasn't stellar they made the other team pay on every missed shot, getting out and running the floor. That's really what I'm after here. I'm not saying Dunleavy is a franchise-saver -- PLEASE -- I'm not even saying he'll ever flirt with all-star caliber; what I'm saying is that if, this year, he finally lives up to the hype and expectations of what he can do, fills the role Mullin had hoped he would, and does that while providing something like 15-5-5 (ala Tayshaun Prince for example, who had 14-4-2 last year), that'll be the missing ingredient to getting that "flow" going again. A good center would help. Heck, so would T-Mac or Tim Duncan. But looking at the current roster, with the emergence of a true starting center, and with Dunleavy providing what's been expected, this team can make a run in the playoffs IMO.
Mario Elie is just as unproven as Montgomery imo. I feel like we have to shoot for somebody that has taken a mediocre team to the playoffs. Nate McMillan or Stan Van Gundy would have been fantastic. But I consider '03 Heat and '04 Sonics way better than current Warriors or '04-current warriors. '02 was the exception year, but the talent didn't fit well enough to play enough defense to win games. If we couldn't outscore the opponent, we couldn't count on defense to hold the other team from running us over.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Mario Elie is just as unproven as Montgomery imo.</div> Mario has proven he can coach and communicates better than Montgomery. He's not afraid to get in a player's face if he has to. Second, I understood what Elie meant with his comments during SL. I wasn't as sure with Monty. It's no wonder Warriors' players aren't on the same page. Mario sounds more like a coach. For whatever reason, Monty doesn't. After listening to Monty for a while my eyes glaze over. Third, I think Mario will be better at executing what Chris Mullin sees with the team he has built. OTOH there is a disconnect between what Mullin says about his team and Monty. Mullin wants a running team while Monty says it's fools gold. Super Mario deserves a shot. If he doesn't get it here, then he will elsewhere. The Kings thought enough of him to bring him in for an interview. It would be just like the Warriors to lose a potential coach.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">Mario has proven he can coach and communicates better than Montgomery. He's not afraid to get in a player's face if he has to. </div> Again, assumptions. Have you been in the NBA to know what these players are about, or is it only the fan's outside perspective? Getting in a player's face may not even be proactive in dealing with that player whereas we might think that. We might think that being a ball-breaker is because we have no idea what's beeing said in the huddle or what goes on during practices or what these player's personalities are like. This ain't the army here. Also, when has Elie coached other than summer league or as an assistant to somebody else? Part of it you deal with players, the other part is strategy and having the right players to execute. We don't have the right players or else we would've had way less weaknesses on defense and more balance on inside play. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post"> Second, I understood what Elie meant with his comments during SL. I wasn't as sure with Monty. It's no wonder Warriors' players aren't on the same page. </div> What were those comments? You know, the media does take things out of context, all the time. Then it gets misinterpreted. Also, the Warriors players seem like they are not on the same page is because these guys don't fit as a team. The way the team is built is because of Mullin handing out cash and long term deals like Cohan was the Knicks owner. I also don't believe that our guys mix and match well. There's too many guys who have their own preferences in playing style and different abilities which don't complement each other well (especially on D) that's where you get players not being on the same page. It's like playing Tetris and having nothing but those annoying L shapes and nothing but L Shapes. You can't mix it up and hope to clear lines fast enough unless you get the right shapes that fit together. There are some guys that fit better than others, but they're not ready. Again, if fans are saying these guys are ready, why don't they join the nba and coach if they know so much? It's the coaches and trainers that are working with these players and if they're not ready, they're not ready. Physically or mentally or chemistry-wise, they both count in the nba readiness factor. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post"> Mario sounds more like a coach. For whatever reason, Monty doesn't. After listening to Monty for a while my eyes glaze over. </div> Don't judge a book by it's cover. The guy probably knows more about head coaching than anybody else who hasn't head coached. Again, conjecture on all accounts unless there is concrete evidence for both sides. Mostly it's the teams who produce the concrete evidence via win record, whereas the coaching is the intangible part we either agree/disagree on. Look at coach Larry Brown. Would he have done better than Flip Saunders? We don't know. We know from history that the Pistons team was a good chemistry team that won a championship against the super lakers and it fit better when it came to defensive mindedness. The Warriors on the other hand, have not been doing well offensively while running or slowing it down to halfcourt or defensively as a team or by themselves. The Warriors are a jack of no trades and master of none. Coaching the Warriors to be better in terms of more wins than losses, is a stretch IMO. This current team is an under .500 win team under any good coach or any subbing pattern or lineup change. We're in rebuilding mode and it will continue to be this way unless Mullin is a smarter GM with financials and has a plan much like Dumars had in Detroit or unless Mullin lands a #1 overall difference maker like Tim Duncan and builds from that player. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post"> Third, I think Mario will be better at executing what Chris Mullin sees with the team he has built. OTOH there is a disconnect between what Mullin says about his team and Monty. Mullin wants a running team while Monty says it's fools gold. </div> Ha good luck with that Mario, dealing with two sides of the extremes: Vets that are useless and will be seeing us for years to come and rookies that aren't ready to play because they can't stay out of foul trouble or they just don't let the game come to them. Face it, Chris Mullin hasn't built jack, so his vision is worthless until he rounds out his GMing abilities with some good trades and fixes the financial situation without destroying his best fitting talent. The vision has to fit the regular season results regardless of coaching. It's one thing to blame a coach for a 5th seeded playoff team getting knocked out of the playoffs early to an inferior opponent, but we're not even in the playoffs yet. We're an inferior team trying to sneak into the 8th seed without any inside presence or defense or shooting ability. That's like expecting our army of swordsmen to defeat guys with machine guns and artillery and tanks. The chance of swordsmen winning is very unlikely unless we get to choose the battlefield and when to attack and how to attack. We don't control those factors in an 82 game season, so we lose more games than we win. We don't have that "initative" in terms of warfare and we don't set the tempo in enough ways to handle whatever is thrown at us. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post"> Super Mario deserves a shot. If he doesn't get it here, then he will elsewhere. The Kings thought enough of him to bring him in for an interview. It would be just like the Warriors to lose a potential coach.</div> So by that reasoning, any assistant coach we've had that can bitch a player out deserves a shot. That's fine if Mario goes elsewhere, because the guys got a lot to prove much like with Montgomery and he can't prove much if he's got a bad team with a GM who was a rookie. Both those coaches would be inheriting a bad team that would make them both look bad like how Larry Brown had the NY knicks. If we're going for a coach, we need to get a guy that has headcoached before and is used to dealing with young millionaire players and without much big man help inside. Larry Brown wouldn't work because he doesn't like rookies, but a guy like Nate McMillan or Stan Van Gundy would. But, we didn't wait for the right opportunity for those guys because Mullin keeps trying to make moves at the wrong times or waiting until the last minute thinking everything is fine or putting blind faith into things where he should be more realistic. This whole Mario Elie over Montgomery argument sounds just like the Pietrus over Dunleavy thing before Pietrus showed his true colors. We think the next unproven guy is the next best candidate because of a hunch and because we're scapegoating the current guy in charge. That's typical of every hopeful, blind faith Warriors fan it seems. It's okay we were all hoping for better days when Mullin first came along after St. Jean, Biedrins came onboard after Dampier left and Foyle failed as a starter, and now with the spotlight on maybe even Ike or Ellis (both who I admit I'm on the bandwagon for in the inside-outside game plan). We also hoped that some summer league guys would be better than our current guaranteed contract guys, but there's a reason why they didn't get drafted or stuck with some teams. Especially point guards that aren't point guards and never will be because they don't shoot or pass or defend or handle the ball well enough.
Monty sucks balls. He sucks over and over again. He sucks, he sucks, he sucks and then he sucks some more. Just when you thought he couldn't possibly suck any more, he does you one better by coming in and sucking the next day. If you laid all the suckiness in this world end to end and thought there could be absolutely no more suck left, Monty will come along and beat it. If Chris Mullin was Smoky the Bear, the coaches park rangers, the players fire fighters and we're all trying to prevent forest fires, Monty would be the guy who comes along with a leaking gas tanker and a match. Kaboom. The forest goes up in smoke. What took hundreds of years to make lush and green with thriving living growth and woodland creatures that inhabit the wilds are all gone in a flash. That is the new season we are about to witness.
And then when he's gone, it'll be the next thing you'll complain about, and the next thing, and the next thing and the next thing, until we start winning. Winning starts from top to bottom. It's never bottom to top. When there's a vision from the front office that stands up to a real nba season and the seasons after it, then we can have some continuity and make improvements to a team that is on the right track. Removing guys, adding mediocre guys that don't fit, won't improve this franchise. We need impact moves and flexibility. Right now we've had 1 impact move and very little flexibility. Who was the guy that made this happen? Mullin.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, assumptions. Have you been in the NBA to know what these players are about, or is it only the fan's outside perspective? Getting in a player's face may not even be proactive in dealing with that player whereas we might think that. We might think that being a ball-breaker is because we have no idea what's beeing said in the huddle or what goes on during practices or what these player's personalities are like. This ain't the army here. Also, when has Elie coached other than summer league or as an assistant to somebody else? Part of it you deal with players, the other part is strategy and having the right players to execute. We don't have the right players or else we would've had way less weaknesses on defense and more balance on inside play.</div> When you listen to players like Dunleavy and Murphy talk about not understanding the strategy that the coach wants to be played, and when the bench guys are just expressing that they are lucky to just get one game's experience because they know they may not play that many minutes for another two weeks(like Ike or Monta or Zarko or Andris), then you know that communication between the coaches and the players is lacking and roles aren't created. The Warriors don't have an all-star team, but it also doesn't help the team when starters like Dunleavy and Foyle are stinking it up, yet playing 30 minutes per game, while capable players get the back seat on the bench. It doesn't help when Fisher is stinking it up on defense, yet Monta Ellis, who is ultra-quick just sits on the bench. It doesn't help the defense or rebounding when the team is getting killed on the defensive glass with Dunleavy stocking up tons of minutes as a PF and we see Andris, Zarko, Foyle, and Ike on the bench. Sure, these guys aren't the dream team. However with the terrible subs and rotations that Montgomery uses, he sure as hell isn't helping this team in terms of defense, rebounding, or anything else. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting custoidanrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't judge a book by it's cover. The guy probably knows more about head coaching than anybody else who hasn't head coached.</div> I sure hope that is the case. But even Montgomery himself has said that he has A LOT to learn still...He is still adjusting to the NBA. This is why some people may want to try Mario Elie as head coach because he actually knows the NBA, he knows what it takes to perform and win. He has also learned from one of the best, in Greg Popavic. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">We're in rebuilding mode and it will continue to be this way unless Mullin is a smarter GM with financials and has a plan much like Dumars had in Detroit or unless Mullin lands a #1 overall difference maker like Tim Duncan and builds from that player.</div> I disagree. It is obvious that this team is in building mode. This is more reason to question why is Montgomery the head coach. How are you going to build a team/roster by bringing in a coach that doesn't know how to be in the NBA? I am not saying that I know how to coach better than Montgomery. But I sure as heck can see that he is not the answer. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Ha good luck with that Mario, dealing with two sides of the extremes: Vets that are useless and will be seeing us for years to come and rookies that aren't ready to play because they can't stay out of foul trouble or they just don't let the game come to them.</div> I only see one vet that is useless and seeing us for year, and that is Foyle. Fisher got dealt a week ago, but he was actually quite useful last year. I mean at least Mike Montgomery liked to use him. And to you, it hasn't been Mike Montgomery who has been the problem with getting players on the right page and everything else. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Face it, Chris Mullin hasn't built jack, so his vision is worthless until he rounds out his GMing abilities with some good trades and fixes the financial situation without destroying his best fitting talent. The vision has to fit the regular season results regardless of coaching. It's one thing to blame a coach for a 5th seeded playoff team getting knocked out of the playoffs early to an inferior opponent, but we're not even in the playoffs yet.</div> Well in the West, when you are amongst a bunch of teams, like the Warriors are now, then it could possibly equate to a 5th scede in the playoffs. Heck the Warriors were around the 5th scede of the playoffs for a while last year, that was at the beginning of the season when the bench was being used productively. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">This whole Mario Elie over Montgomery argument sounds just like the Pietrus over Dunleavy thing before Pietrus showed his true colors. We think the next unproven guy is the next best candidate because of a hunch and because we're scapegoating the current guy in charge. That's typical of every hopeful, blind faith Warriors fan it seems.</div> Well, what about Terry Porter? He has experience. He'd be about the same as Mario Elie possibly. Then we wouldn't go with the "unproven" guy. It doesn't take a blind warriors fan to see that Montgomery is not a good fit here, though maybe a blind warrior fan could see this too. But looking at credentials, which not only Warrior fans but everyone in business looks at, Mario Elie seems like a fine replacement; at least an improvement.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Mario Elie is just as unproven as Montgomery imo. </div> That would be sad if that were the case...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post">But looking at credentials, which not only Warrior fans but everyone in business looks at, Mario Elie seems like a fine replacement; at least an improvement.</div> Clif -- I'm not sure what credentials we're looking at here; Elie has never coached a game. I mean, theoretically he may prove to be a good coach someday. He has NBA championship experience; he had a tough-nosed "defense-first" mentality when he played; and apparently many players respect him. That doesn't mean he has the credentials to make him an instant improvement over Montgomery. I mean, I myself have posted earlier today that with Monty it's probably just a matter of time, and it'd be nice at some point to see Elie get a chance. But he is by no means a proven coach with credentials. It takes a lot more to coach in the league other than just a tough guy player who has "rep" with the players. Drawing up plays, defenses, and schemes is a lot harder than running them. Many of the greatest coaches in history were average players at best, and many very good coaches have had little or no NBA experience at all. Gaining the respect of your players and putting your foot down as the leader are two key ingredients to being a successful coach. As far as I can tell, Montgomery has completely failed to do this as of yet. Maybe he never will (I myself give him a 1/2 season leash to prove otherwise). But think of it this way: You could take some And-1 street ballers and hook em up with Red Auerbach: they may never decide to respect him. That doesn't make him a bad coach. That makes them poor listeners. It didn't help that Montgomery inherited their team, where JRich and Troy seemed as reluctant to give him control as he did in taking it. But I'm not defending Monty. Personally I don't think he is really cut out to coach in the NBA. He just lacks the personality IMO. But my point in this post is that Elie is no sure-fire improvement. He has no real credentials. If he turned in a resume it would say a few years as an assistant coach. Look at Dave Cowens. He was as tough and hard-nosed as they come, and he laid an egg here. I still think Elie has the potential to turn into a great coach. I loved him as a player and I'm rooting for him. It'd be awesome if he took over this year and the Warriors won 50 games. But he's still got a lot to prove.
Sup guys, been a long time since I last posted but Im back. Anyway thought Id put my 2 cents in.. Elie may not be any more proven then Monty as a head coach but he's got alot more NBA experience and a better personality to handle NBA talent IMO. He's a former player that has won a championship and also coached on a championship team...that alone has alot more credibilty then Monty probally ever will at the NBA level. I also agree with one of the posters when they say Elie is better spoken then Monty. As a head coach you have to be able to communicate well with your players and have them buy into your scheme..that has hardly happened with Monty. We need a coach who can get the most out of each player and Monty is horrible at using players to their strengths or taking advantage of miss matches. Yes the roster is still flawed but having a mediocre at best NBA coach doesn't help. I dont think getting rid of Monty in Elie's favor would set the team back much either since he's already been here a couple seasons and has worked with all the players. I feel it'd be a better move in the long run but Mully wants to keep Monty instead of going with the typical Warrior tradition...this time I have a feeling it will come back to bite us, I hope Im wrong.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">And then when he's gone, it'll be the next thing you'll complain about, and the next thing, and the next thing and the next thing, until we start winning. Winning starts from top to bottom. It's never bottom to top. When there's a vision from the front office that stands up to a real nba season and the seasons after it, then we can have some continuity and make improvements to a team that is on the right track. Removing guys, adding mediocre guys that don't fit, won't improve this franchise. We need impact moves and flexibility. Right now we've had 1 impact move and very little flexibility. Who was the guy that made this happen? Mullin.</div> I doubt anyone is 100% for Mullin as VP right now. We just can't get rid of him because if we do then we start all over again. He gets a chance because he can do something to fix it. He's done pretty well in the drafting department. It's just his big, long-term contracts that have hurt him and his staff along with the team. Besides, he's been a True Warrior in the past so that means something. Mullin will eventually get rid of Monty because he is the one that doesn't fit.
I don't think him being a great Warrior player has anything to do with what he is doing right now. If any, he brought bunch of his friends in Warriors organization, and frankly, I don't know what they are really doing. If there was any smart soul, they probably would said something about upcoming horrible financial problem. It's his third official year, and he is already in cleaning up his own mess mode... But, good news is that at least he is not making same mistakes like he did before. I don't know it's because he learned something or he is not in position to make those mistakes because the situation got worse, but let's just hope that he learned something. For whole Monty thing, I am about to accept the reality that Monty won't be fired now and try to see the bright side. At least, he won't do worse job than last year (or I hope). But, if he shows an early sign that he still can't adjust after 2+ years of coaching and try to implant his own method, which ended up with catastrophic blunders, I will call for his head. At some point, Monty gotta figure out "OK, whatever I was doing is not working. It's time to try another way". People think Muss is an offensive type of coach, but he actually is a defensive minded coach, who set CBA record for defense. It took about couple weeks for Muss to adjust. And, you gotta think two years is enough for Monty to adjust. If not, he really doesn't belong to the league...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kwan1031:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think him being a great Warrior player has anything to do with what he is doing right now. If any, he brought bunch of his friends in Warriors organization, and frankly, I don't know what they are really doing. If there was any smart soul, they probably would said something about upcoming horrible financial problem. It's his third official year, and he is already in cleaning up his own mess mode... But, good news is that at least he is not making same mistakes like he did before. I don't know it's because he learned something or he is not in position to make those mistakes because the situation got worse, but let's just hope that he learned something. For whole Monty thing, I am about to accept the reality that Monty won't be fired now and try to see the bright side. At least, he won't do worse job than last year (or I hope). But, if he shows an early sign that he still can't adjust after 2+ years of coaching and try to implant his own method, which ended up with catastrophic blunders, I will call for his head. At some point, Monty gotta figure out "OK, whatever I was doing is not working. It's time to try another way". People think Muss is an offensive type of coach, but he actually is a defensive minded coach, who set CBA record for defense. It took about couple weeks for Muss to adjust. And, you gotta think two years is enough for Monty to adjust. If not, he really doesn't belong to the league...</div> I just meant Mullin gets more leeway because he was one of the best Warriors and remembered for his contributions when he was a player. He overcame personal adversity to become a True Warrior. That said, he's not going to be able to keep his high paying and high profile VP position if he doesn't produce. What really hurt him was sitting on his hands after he got Baron. Even good teams make small changes to their roster (sometimes this bears fruit) as the NBA is in a constant state of flux. I think Mullin made a mistake by letting Will Bynum go. At least, I hope he considered what he had after trading Derek Fisher. If he believed that Keith McLeod was the guy for the backup job, then that's fine. But he hasn't said anything about him and doubt that he was the main target in the deal. It was more a cap dumping move. Mullin seems to be going for the home run or blockbuster trade and that isn't always possible. It takes some hard work and luck for it. Cleaning up his own mess mode is a good way to put Mullin's situation. He's been able to do it in the past, but he's made even more of a mess now. As for Monty, I hope Mullin see's he's part of the mess soon .
The Warriors had one 2 month run of success when Baron got here. Otherwise-it's a "team" winning around 45%. It turned out that when Baron arrived,Monty could not teach him the Full Monty system and they went with plan B..the Fools Gold run+fun attack. Fools Gold = 60% wins. Full Monty = 45% wins. Gee...I wonder which is the true path? Monty obviously expects,despite the cruel realities,that The Full Monty will get us to 50% somehow....If Dunleavy just made a few more 3's and Keith McLeod can bring that winning spark...... The Warriors have for 20+ years agonized over the C position. We now have 3 young candidates who can be much improved by mid-season-IF THEY PLAY We have Murphy. Murph is 6-11. He can get 11 boards and 16 pts a game. There is a myth that he has a disability and is unable to function on the defensive end. It looks to me like his role has been to be in rebounding position,and the plan is for foyle to be the main D inside. I'd rather both multi-task and not be limited. I have cied elsewhere the segment when with a role change,Murphy was = Dirk,Brand etc,was DEFENDING as well as rebounding + Scoring. I see no problem in him playing CENTER. The deal so far-is he has NOT "played center" but played PF in a 3 guard game with no center. Murphy is no Olajuwon...and nobody we can get is either. Murphy DOES Score,RBD,and CAN play at least decent D. I want the BULK of the C minutes going to the 3 man FUTURE- Biedrens-Taft-O'Bryant. They need at least 70-75% of the C Minutes,with Murph getting much of the rest. Foyle can work on helping the young guys improve their reading skills. A Millionaire ought to be able to put togather a coherant sentance sometimes. I'd be okay with Dun having some role-but I need him to be a RELIABLE 15-20 ft shooter-not a 3-baller who can have a week hitting 15% from the arc. We NEED PIETRUS to again be Air France,to be a lockdown D guy,a speed mismatch,a guy who is hard to stop on the drive. We need Ellis to get out there as a PG,to bring that asset up to speed. We need Ike getting big time minutes,not charity fragments.. Playing Biedrens-O'Bryant-Taft big minutes at center may have some problems-but wtf-playing Foyle at C has some problems. Playing big men speeds their development. Diop was useless sitting in Cleveland getting a token 4 min a week-same for Darko,R Swift,Tsakalidis,David Harrison. A Center needs to play through the awkward phase. Otherwise all you get is a Todd Fuller. You don't learn the flow,how the refs are calling things just sitting. We need to not sweat the short range stuff and REALLY build rather than scramble pathetically to save face after again failing to build. Once we HAVE a legit .500 finish-then we can think about whether to make a major swap to move up a level.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting REREM:</div><div class="quote_post">It turned out that when Baron arrived,Monty could not teach him the Full Monty system... If...Keith McLeod can bring that winning spark...... There is a myth that he has a disability and is unable to function on the defensive end.... Foyle can work on helping the young guys improve their reading skills.... Playing Biedrens-O'Bryant-Taft big minutes at center may have some problems-but wtf-playing Foyle at C has some problems.</div> Heh I liked these comments. BTW, I think the rooks/youngs will see more minutes than last year. Look what Beidrins did in his year 2. He actually got some minutes. So did Ike in year 1. Even Monta got more than a charity look toward the end of last season. I don't think Monty is completely against playing the youngs. I hear a lot about that -- and I'll be the first to declare that he WAY overplayed Foyle and Fisher last year (gawd!) -- but I don't think he went with the vets because he doesn't like playing rookies (ala Larry Brown). I think he went with the vets because he honestly believed they gave him the best chance of putting some wins under his belt and earning some credibility amongst the fraternity of NBA coaches. Now that he's been tarnished by two poor seasons, I think he'll be more willing to make changes. I mean heck, he tried starting Ike Diogu over Foyle at center. That was not a conservative move. I'm not saying he's going to get this team to 60 wins next year, but IMO look for the young players to be rewarded with increased roles.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post">When you listen to players like Dunleavy and Murphy talk about not understanding the strategy that the coach wants to be played, and when the bench guys are just expressing that they are lucky to just get one game's experience because they know they may not play that many minutes for another two weeks(like Ike or Monta or Zarko or Andris), then you know that communication between the coaches and the players is lacking and roles aren't created. </div> Link? I don't think Dunleavy ever said he didn't understand the strategy, but he didn't play well with guys who wanted to hold onto the ball like it was streetball. That's what happens when all five guys aren't playing as a team. They get disorganized and overwhelmed. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"><font size="2">"We can't just go throw the ball out there and play street ball, and that's what we rely on," Dunleavy said. "When the going gets tough, that's what we rely on. You can't just let your All-Stars, your best players, go one-on-one. As good as those guys are, the other guys are good, too. - Mike Dunleavy Jr.</font></div> But I guess Dunleavy shouldn't talk because he sucks the most as a perimeter guy. Murphy isn't involved in offense because he's not a natural decision-maker with the ball. He'll look to score either off feeds from somebody else or he'll go into triple threat ("double threat") isolations where he can use a combo of pump fakes, jab steps, where he'll either drive all the way to the basket in a few steps or he'll use his step back jumper. When has this guy ever been a passer whenever the team broke away from plays? Murphy is not an assist heavy guy unless its scripted and called out by our guards. Our guards don't really seem to run plays either because they feel they can do it all by themselves or they haven't practiced enough. For a perimeter guy such as Murphy, he's very black-holish and he's been that way for most of his career. A starting power forward should definitely be more teamwork oriented as he's supposed to be the enforcer and the guy that does the little things like the point guard does. If Foyle is acting power forward, then Murphy is doing a horrible job on the little things as Foyle is on offense. The two make lousy teamwork in the paint because they don't go together and neither can play honestly on one side of the court. Just like everyone else, I don't like Montgomery playing guys like Foyle/Dunleavy/Fisher over more promising athletes, but maybe in some way the coaching staff felt he had no choice if young guys weren't ready to play. We have this mentality that the young, unproven guy showing flashes of skill is going to stay consistent, know how to play as a team, and replace the guy starting right away. It's like Fortson over Spencer, Murphy over Fortson, and now Ike over Murphy. Who's next in line? Why don't we ease them into the rotation bit by bit until they understand the playbook, and find better trades for Murphy at veteran PF than Harrington. Just like rookies like Pietrus scoring a point per minute back in the day, doesn't mean he's ready to play. Also, maybe he felt rookies didn't understand the playbook to work better as a team so they need time to learn it. The main goal is to get these guys to play like a team, develop with confidence, and eventually make others better. This is generally what happens when our team is full of 1 or 2 year players and there's no veteran infrastructure in place to take the presure off and all the young guys want to play their way out of Oakland. Do we think guys like Murphy/Fisher/Foyle/Dunleavy take the presure off the rookies? Hell no. So what's the point of playing our best rookies if the veterans are going to get these rookies into close game situations where they could easily fail and never recover emotionally or confidence wise. It was very hard for guys like Richardson to gain confidence until the Warriors invested wisely in veterans such as Clif Robinson/Calbert Cheaney/Nick Van Exel and all these guys that are consummate pros in their positions and are vocal leaders who've been excellent leaders. We want more guys like Jason Richardson, Baron Davis + aggressive, legit inside presence in the court + glue, and not soft jump shooting, fumbling big, lack defense, lack offense big men. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post"> The Warriors don't have an all-star team, but it also doesn't help the team when starters like Dunleavy and Foyle are stinking it up, yet playing 30 minutes per game, while capable players get the back seat on the bench. It doesn't help when Fisher is stinking it up on defense, yet Monta Ellis, who is ultra-quick just sits on the bench. It doesn't help the defense or rebounding when the team is getting killed on the defensive glass with Dunleavy stocking up tons of minutes as a PF and we see Andris, Zarko, Foyle, and Ike on the bench. Sure, these guys aren't the dream team. However with the terrible subs and rotations that Montgomery uses, he sure as hell isn't helping this team in terms of defense, rebounding, or anything else. </div> Who are Dunleavy and Foyle's backups? They are euro-projects who aren't ready to play nba team ball. Plus it also doesn't fit anyway. Like if we put Ike on the floor and take Murphy out, who rebounds, who boxes out? If we play Murphy at center, who defends the rim? If we take Dunleavy out and Baron is hurt, who dribble penetrates, makes smart decisions and passes the ball like a true point guard? If we put Pietrus in and Richardson in at the same time without Baron Davis, who sets up and creates for both of them? If we take Fisher out, who shoots the three ball? If we put Ellis in, how are we sure this guy isn't Baron Davis with the shot selection/injuries and without the playmaking/leadership skills? What if we put in Andris Biedrins throughout the game and each time he keeps putting the Warriors over the foul limit? Each time we put Andris Biedrins out there, he proves nothing honest to the referrees. He keeps getting called on committed fouls he's doing as a bad habit. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post"> I sure hope that is the case. But even Montgomery himself has said that he has A LOT to learn still...He is still adjusting to the NBA. This is why some people may want to try Mario Elie as head coach because he actually knows the NBA, he knows what it takes to perform and win. He has also learned from one of the best, in Greg Popavic. </div> Well maybe Mario freakin' Elie should also be the Warriors GM because Mullin hasn't coached crap to know enough about what players actually do in ball games and what styles of play is necessary in order to win. We've got an inconsistent roster all the way around that doesn't fit together and hence they have no identity or propensity to play team ball in a variety of ways to respond to the competition out there. We either get outquicked or outmuscled, but definitely outsmarted because we don't practice the plays and have the right pieces to make them work right because of what Mullin built. We have to give the coach a chance to get things right because we definitely know the roster ain't right and it will never be right unless they have the right vision to start off with. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post"> It is obvious that this team is in building mode. This is more reason to question why is Montgomery the head coach. How are you going to build a team/roster by bringing in a coach that doesn't know how to be in the NBA? I am not saying that I know how to coach better than Montgomery. But I sure as heck can see that he is not the answer. </div> No kidding it's in rebuilding mode. If you look at the number of famous coaches who've turned around a college program after about 4 years of turnover and recruiting the right guys, it suddenly works. Why? Because the coach knows what he's looking for and he suddenly has a competitive team. Some of these GMs don't know what the f they are doing and I think Mullin is one of those guys that prepared the wrong roster (a losing roster regardless of Montgomery) for the coach he brought in: Monty or Elie. Give it a chance to rebuild PROPERLY. This means investing in the right vets that fit rather than useless vets that don't fit. It means playing the rookies at a good pace rather than the fan's pace. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post"> I only see one vet that is useless and seeing us for year, and that is Foyle. Fisher got dealt a week ago, but he was actually quite useful last year. I mean at least Mike Montgomery liked to use him. And to you, it hasn't been Mike Montgomery who has been the problem with getting players on the right page and everything else. </div> No, because players that fit are supposed to win more games than they lose in the regular season, not coaches. It's really a player's league. Aside from injuries, star talent and team design should speak for itself. I see a problem in the coaching, but we're playing teams that beat our asses if they wanted to if we had a different coach. See Musselman for instance. He got his ass beat because the GM f-ed him. I see Montgomery getting f-ed over by Mullin in the same way. I see a big problem if the guys known for shooting can't shoot. I see a big problem when this team is labeled a "transition scoring team" but they can't score that well or consistently inside or at the line and they can't even defend the rim in transition or rebound when they miss. I see a big problem when our most important reason for going on a meaningless win streak was a healthy/focussed Baron Davis and guys making their shots at an incredible rate to allow such poor defense on our end. Also you want to talk about roles? Murphy fits the role of a power forward? So what roles do that force the center to become if there's no inside presence or guy who can clean up? What about Dunleavy being a good fit for the role that Jason Richardson plays, but he doesn't do anything particular well at all and he's slow and weak. We talk like the coach can solve all these problems that he has inherited long term from a so-far bad, inexperienced GM such as Chris Mullin. When you have players that don't fit and aren't useful on multiple levels, you tend to get "the suck" and it trickles to everywhere in our lineup because the roles being played aren't being filled properly. I'll say again, we need a point guard that plays like a point guard, a shooting guard that plays like a shooting guard (although he can take over some point from the point guard and scoring duties from the smaller forward). The power forward and center should be interchangeable and compatible. Why? Because it opens up more styles of plays and opportunities to score on mismatches. Like the high and low game or backdoor plays. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post"> Well in the West, when you are amongst a bunch of teams, like the Warriors are now, then it could possibly equate to a 5th scede in the playoffs. Heck the Warriors were around the 5th scede of the playoffs for a while last year, that was at the beginning of the season when the bench was being used productively. </div> Okay, now you're being one of those over-optimistic homers and totally ignoring the fact we didn't address the problems from the year before and we also didn't have Baron Davis healthy enough to play in those games where we couldn't create without him. Besides, just because you play like a 5th seeded team in one half of the year, doesn't mean you're an actual 5th seeded team. Consistency has been a big issue with our players, especially in a marathon of a season with teams suddenly figuring us out or multiple guys having off years. The bench being used improperly was arguable only because we didn't get to see what the rookies could do over a longer period of time and in different game situations. But those rookies still don't make up for the fact we lost our team's MVP at point guard and our europrojects weren't improving at the rate we needed them to improve. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Clif25:</div><div class="quote_post"> Well, what about Terry Porter? He has experience. He'd be about the same as Mario Elie possibly. Then we wouldn't go with the "unproven" guy. It doesn't take a blind warriors fan to see that Montgomery is not a good fit here, though maybe a blind warrior fan could see this too. But looking at credentials, which not only Warrior fans but everyone in business looks at, Mario Elie seems like a fine replacement; at least an improvement.</div> The title of the thread is the missing ingredient. Well it should be missing ingredients, because we're putting the carriage before the horse. Montgomery is not perfect, but his success depends on the team built for him. Right now we have a shtty mismatched "team" that was decided all at once in '04 with little follow up moves to address the problems we have now in '05 through '06. That's really about 2.5 years to figure out things and wait on these euro projects to do something. During that time, only one trade was made and that was Baron Davis. The rest were hardly tangible. This is a roster that isn't built for any coach who wants to win unless they want to deal with headache after headache because this franchise doesn't put the rookies or coaches in a position to win or develop right. They keep investing in bad veterans players or guys that don't fit or play consistently enough to introduce rookies into the lineup. The way our guys suck defensively and offensively goes beyond the dilemma of asking the rookies to do more than they can do at their current level of nba readiness. I've really got no answer that any Warriors fan wants to hear, but this rebuilding situation ain't going to work if we start the habit of firing coaches again and the rookies are being told something different each and every year by somebody new, and Mullin keeps adding in more players that won't be gone anytime soon and they keep sucking and we have rookies that are projects that need more time than we're willing to allow a player or any new coach to have. We just got to be patient and accept the reason why we're upset is because we're not ready to wait and this team is a result of the multiple bad moves made in '04 and '05 and not having a foreseeable franchise player to build from. I mean Jason Richardson and Ike Diogu are solid, but none really make others better. Baron Davis can make others better, but he can also make guys worse just as easily, especially if he's not earning his contract and he's being more of a Steve Francis ball movement killer. This team has to improve its teamwork and its individual play. Currently, there's too many guys each suffering from too many things that it's been inharmonious for years. No rookie coach or actually any coach should have to put up with typical Warriors front office B.S. If a franchise wants to turn around it's about follow through and so far Mullin hasn't done anything to help this franchise than his predecessor. Drafts are fine, but what else? There's no franchise players better than Jrich that we've drafted.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post"> Monty seems to say that the Warriors play better in the half court set and not The Fools Gold attack like the Suns. JMO. </div> The Warriors play better when they play team defense in a halfcourt setting, but they lose all that when they go crazy running. It's because their transition defense is too slow. Guys like Dunleavy, Murphy, Fisher, Richardson all get absolutely raped by their own assignments. But, I can say that Fisher/Dunleavy/Richardson are better defenders given their effort. This means have Baron/Murphy stay home sick. We don't need Baron to constantly gamble on steals and have guys blow right by him. We don't need Murphy avoiding help defense, but we need rebounding and consistent scoring from Murphy and playmaking, dominating ballhandling, and all-star presence from Baron, which is the big dilemma. Our best players can be huge problems that complicate the good things our lousy role players actually do. It's that balance of teamwork plus great individual play that get messed up. We need both. Also, the reason why the Warriors do so well in the open court is because they're beating team defenses that aren't set like they are in halfcourt. But if they can't outquick the other team or move with or without the ball quickly, it becomes a halfcourt situation again. It's pointless because transition defense will just pack the middle and force guys who don't really make decisions with the ball to shoot or to slam right into the guy under the basket for the offensive foul. Just watch how non-point guards like Fisher/Ellis run fastbreak compared to Baron Davis. Baron runs it effortlessly. Now with Baron hurt a lot of the time, Ellis is the obvious choice for open court ball because he's quicker, but dude the guy cannot go left, he has problems with his passing accuracy, and he's generally been drafted to be a raw scorer and a ballhawk for now. Asking him to do all the things that Baron does so well to warrant top 3 overall pick is asking him to do a lot. I mean he's a high school rookie still learning by playing some and watching and practicing.
When can we get over the fact that wins in March don't mean jack when every team knows we ain't going to playoffs? Especially, when we don't even have Baron Davis, the key to our supposed "resurgence" there playing for most of the year. We had many issues that weren't addressed since Mullin comitted something like 200 million dollars towards in '04 in one felled swoop. It's been two years and if he doesn't fix this, there will be more problems discussed over and over besides the coach. There's a step forward and two steps back in everything the Warriors do. When it comes to winning now versus getting the right veterans around the rookies, they got to find a better fit and within reasonable expectations. They can't tell fans playoffs or bust, when they've been like this way for years and years and years. They don't follow budget management well and they don't design teams around a concept that can get better ball movement going and better ability to rebound the ball or play defense or change their tempo to fast or slow. I'm stressed talking about "The problem is Dunleavy." "The problem is Monty". When all these players on our roster affect what the coach does or can't do in order to close out games. These players also effect each other's roles because each person has one thing they do well but not the things they should be doing for that position. There's too many freakin' tweeners or guys that don't do their roles the way they should and that's why its impossible to find any sort of identity right now or a style to play these guys. It's too hard to match these guys up and mask all the flaws and get all the strengths out there. These guys are like a balloon. You squeeze one end and the air pushes over to the other. This team and whole franchise needs balance. You don't do that when the roster is the problem and the GM who put that roster together is making mistakes when we can't afford to make mistakes. Guys who gamble wrong, destroy franchises.
