Jason Kidd is still the best PG in the NBA today

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd's mind set is to get the ball to his teammates</div>

And that isn't Steve Nash's mindset?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nash for example is more 2G than PG.</div>

When's the last a SG averaged 11.5 APG?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd attracts as much double teams as Nash does</div>

Uh..no he doesn't. Kidd has no jumpshot, why would the opposing team send 2 defenders at a PG with Kidd's vision?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He brougth the Nets to 2 straight finals appearance with a line up of Jefferson, Martin & Vanhorn. Kidd made them look good.</div>

Steve Nash brought the Suns to the WCF with Raja Bell, James Jones, Shawn Marion, and Boris Diaw. If I was to tell you at the beginning of the season that Nash would lead Diaw, Bell, Jones, and Marion to the WCF without Amare, you'd probably be laughing your ass off.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Martin has gone from All-Star status to a headache. Chokes in the 4th, takes to many jumpers, can't make a basket inside.</div>

He's been dealing with knee injuries too, but I agree, Kidd made him good. But look at Q-Rich this past season. He was absolutely terrible without Nash.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But with regards to who's the best point guard, it is Jason Kidd.</div>

I agree, but people (not you) need to stop hating on Nash and realize that he is a great PG and is a big reason why the Suns have become championship contenders.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's been dealing with knee injuries too, but I agree, Kidd made him good. But look at Q-Rich this past season. He was absolutely terrible without Nash.</div>
Actually this is quite a false statement, so is the next one that follows it.

Let's look at Martin's PER 40 numbers in Denver and New Jersey, and him being a headcase is not relative to how good these guys are as PG's anyways.


<font color=""Navy"">02-03 (NJN):</font> 19.5 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 2.8 APG, 2.9 TPG, 16.5 FGA/G, 47% FG, .511 TS%, 66% assisted FGM
<font color=""navy"">03-04 (NJN):</font> 19.3 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 2.8 APG, 3.0 TPG, 16.0 FGA/G, 48.8% FG, .528 TS%, 67% assisted FGM
<font color=""navy"">04-05 (Den):</font> 19.1 PPG, 9.0 RPG, 3.0 APG, 2.6 TPG, 16.0 FGA/G, 49% FG, .521 TS%, 66% assisted FGM
<font color=""navy"">05-06 (Den):</font> 18.6 PPG, 9.1 RPG, 2.0 APG, 1.9 TPG, 15.5 FGA/G, 49.5% FG, .533 TS%, 73% assisted FGM

Look at his first year in Denver, he had a similar scoring output to his last year in New Jersey, more assists, less turnovers, slightly higher FG% (insignificant, basically the same), but had a higher TS% due to FT's. In 02-03 in New Jersey he scored more, but that was only because he took more shots, he wasn't more efficient. The change in rebounding numbers is quite easy. In New Jersey Kidd was the second best rebounder on the team as a PG. In Denver Marcus Camby is one of the league's leading rebounders, and in addition to that in 04-05, Nene was there for 55 games too. 05-06 Kmart was injured, wasn't even playing too well and his numbers didn't drop much from New Jersey outside of minutes. People always forget about minutes when they talk about numbers. If you play more minutes, on average, thats time to score a little more PPG, maybe grab a few more RPG etc. Even looking at the percentage of assisted FG's he had, his highest year was actually this season in Denver, but there was no change from 02-03 and 03-04 to 04-05.

Similarly for Q-Rich. If you actually looked, you'd see that his best year of his career pure numbers was on the Clippers in 03-04. I'd actually argue that 01-02 was his true best season. That season we had no PG, it was Eddie House, Keyon Dooling and Jaric, and none of them played more than 60 games. 2 weren't anything close to actual PG's, and Jaric is not bad, but still not a true playmaker.

The reason Q-Rich went down in New York was not because he was without Nash. Are we going to ignore that Larry Brown was coaching and just about everyone who you could compare to a previous season (as long as they didn't get a minutes increase) went down. Marbury a 20-8 player for quite a while put up PER 40 numbers of 18 points and 7 assists and every efficiency stat of his went down in comparison to 04-05. Jamal Crawford got less minutes (4 less), but also dropped per minute in scoring, though not as drastically as Marbury. In addition to that, Q-Rich also had the family problems and that hurt his play, not that I like the 100% Q anyways, and Phoenix was running a fast pace where he was the 5th option on the team, so his efficiency should already be higher anyways. Even with all that, comparing PHO to NYK using his PER 40 numbers:

<font color=""Navy"">Phoenix:</font> 16.6 PPG | 14.7 FGA/G | 6.7 RPG | 2.2 APG | 1.4 TPG | .522 TS%
<font color=""navy"">New York:</font> 12.5 PPG | 12.7 FGA/G | 6.4 RPG | 2.4 APG | 1.6 TPG | .452 TS% (the big one)

Just for reference
<font color=""Navy"">LAC (03-04):</font> 19.2 PPG | 18.3 FGA/G | 7.1 RPG | 2.4 APG | 2.4 TPG | .484 TS%
<font color=""Navy"">LAC (02-03):</font> 16.1 PPG | 16.0 FGA/G | 8.2 RPG | 1.5 APG | 1.9 TPG | .460 TS%
<font color=""Navy"">LAC (01-02):</font> 20.0 PPG | 17.2 FGA/G | 6.2 RPG | 2.4 APG | 1.9 TPG | .534 TS%

He was better in 01-02 than in 02-03 on the Clippers, that's why I put that one. So no, he didn't drop because Nash wasn't there, he dropped because New Yorks style of play did not fit his offensive game at all.

 

Kidd's strengths- Gets teammates involved
Great on fast break
Doesn't force his offense

Kidd's weaknesses- His jump shot could improve. I don't think hes that bad


I don't think Kidd is as good on defense as people say he is. Its hard to see who is really good on defense unless you record the game and really observe whats going on. I don't know enough of basketball yet. But I do know that Anthony Johnson just ate up Jason Kidd in the playoffs. Kidd can steal good but I think he's overrated offensively. I think Nash is better right now.

 

Jason Kidd plays D

Steve Nash looks 4 ppl like Mateen Cleaves when hes on the floor try to lock down (before he looks himself down)

 

Yeah Nash sucks at defense. But I just don't think Kidd is the same he was in those 2 finals runs.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NBA MAN:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd's strengths- Gets teammates involved
Great on fast break
Doesn't force his offense

Kidd's weaknesses- His jump shot could improve. I don't think hes that bad


I don't think Kidd is as good on defense as people say he is. Its hard to see who is really good on defense unless you record the game and really observe whats going on. I don't know enough of basketball yet. But I do know that Anthony Johnson just ate up Jason Kidd in the playoffs. Kidd can steal good but I think he's overrated offensively. I think Nash is better right now.</div>
He's not a horrific shooter, just not a good one, but I don't agree with "he can improve". You can't say that anymore when he's 30+ years old and hasn't improved in the 10+ years he's been in the league.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting vcwannabe15:</div><div class="quote_post">For everyone who thinks Nash is better than Kidd, to everyone who thinks Arenas is better than Kidd, to everyone who thinks Chris Paul, Allen Iverson, or Baron Davis is better than Kidd, wake up and smell the coffee. Jason Kidd is still the best point guard in the NBA today.

Steve Nash is not better than Jason Kidd because he had a much deeper team to work with. Gilbert Arenas and Allen Iverson are more of scorers/shooting guards. Chris Paul is new to the NBA right now and is not on the same level as Kidd. Baron Davis is a great player but he is injury prone.

I just wanted to make it clear that Jason Kidd is still the best point guard in the NBA. With Nash winning the MVP people are starting to forget about J-Kidd. If Jason Kidd played for the Suns they would be the NBA champions right now. Jsaon Kidd is still the best PG in the NBA today.</div>
I have my own opinion and you have yours....

 

^^^Thats Right

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">He's not a horrific shooter, just not a good one, but I don't agree with "he can improve". You can't say that anymore when he's 30+ years old and hasn't improved in the 10+ years he's been in the league.</div>

I know I said he's not a horrific shooter. I said he's not that bad at shooting. But when you talk about a great player like Kidd you notice all the great things but you notice his weakness and his weakness is his jumpshot. Its a lot better than most NBA players but for a superstar player like Kidd it could be better.

 

I'm not arguing with your assesment of his shooting, I think I misunderstood what you said. I think you means his jumpshot can improve as in there's room for it to improve, not that he currently has potential to improve his shot which is what I thought. Anyways, s'all good.

 

Steve Nash is the best PG in the game, BY FAR. Jason Kidd is a valuable asset, but his problem shooting the basketball make his value go down drastically. This isn't even much of a debate. Steve Nash has done things this year, and last year that I never thought in a million years he could do. The guy is incredible. All while Jason Kidd is on the decline.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Steve Nash has done things this year, and last year that I never thought in a million years he could do</div>

Nuff said. People are taking Nash's last two years as though he was ALWAYS MVP like.

I take Kidd by far.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Steve Nash is the best PG in the game, BY FAR. Jason Kidd is a valuable asset, but his problem shooting the basketball make his value go down drastically. This isn't even much of a debate. Steve Nash has done things this year, and last year that I never thought in a million years he could do. The guy is incredible. All while Jason Kidd is on the decline.</div>


So Nash was better than Kidd when he was on Dallas too?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont think one is better than the other, they're both very good PGs but other than playmaking they aren't all that similar.


Agreed, Kidd has very nice talent around him, its not like hes playing with a bunch of scrubs.

The people saying Nash is overrated because of the system hes in and the style they play are totally wrong though. Steve Nash is that system, hes responsible for guys like Quentin Richardson, Tim Thomas, Joe Johnson, Raja Bell, etc. breaking out and in some cases going elsewhere and not living up to expectations and/or their contract. His team had the 3rd best record in the western conference and he lead his team to the Western Conference Finals without his team's best player, that doesnt just happen because they play a running style offense. Nash is a great PG, don't try to take away what he's done these last few seasons because hes outplayed your favorite PG.</div>

If Kidd and Nash would trade places, the Suns would have beeen in the finals.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Franchise4Ever:</div><div class="quote_post">Nuff said. People are taking Nash's last two years as though he was ALWAYS MVP like.

I take Kidd by far.</div>

You nailed it! Nash should thank Phoenix' system. Kidd was already a star when he came in the NBA. Throughout his career, he has been considered as 1 of the top Point Guards in the league. Nash only broke out in his later years. It didn't matter which team he went to. He is always the main guy.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AMS_ice:</div><div class="quote_post">If Kidd and Nash would trade places, the Suns would have beeen in the finals.</div>
You say this like it's a fact, that's not a fact at all, please don't be dumb. Saying this is just as dumb as the people that act like Nash has been MVP his whole career, actually it's even dumber.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd is getting older though. So is Nash, but I think Nash's shooting ability will allow him to be better for longer. Kidd can't sustain All-NBA first team defense into his older years, while Nash can sustain his shooting ability as long as he plays. Neither guy relies on athleticism to play, so they'll still be able to do most of what they can do.


I do think Nash is the best PG in the league now (as in next season) though. For last season I'd say they were about equal. Kidd obviously didn't have the same luxury of players around him, he had two very good players in RJ and Vince and a nice one in Krstic, but as a whole it was quite harder for him to put out the same assist output. Nash's shooting ability allows his game to carry out better into his older years while Kidd's lack of true shooting ability hurts his offensive game. Nash can continue to be a scorer because he can shoot while Kidd has to work harder for his, and he's not as quick as he was before, neither does he have shooters all around him, so penetration becomes harder. Nash also becomes more effective on the high pick and roll in halfcourt sets because of his shooting, while Kidd would need more of the penetration pick and roll, but then again, older years, not as quick, so it becomes harder.

Also if we're trying to limit this to pure PG's and not players that play the PG position there's only Nash. But if we're not, Arenas would be #2 of my PG list, with Iverson following, and I wouldn't be surprised if Paul is able to surpass Kidd next season. He's the up and comer.</div>

So is this a fact? or is it also DUMB?

 

The Thread Title says it all

you dont see "Nash is still the Best Point Guard in the League"

Kidd is Behind Nash
(not a fan other either of them)

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm seriously beginning to think that Kidd is one of the most overrated players on this board</div>

Oh like we make some many threads discussing wether he is the best point guard today.

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Hopefully we can agreed one thing about both. Kidd has had a better <u>career</u> than Nash. That he has been the better player for the longer time and that doesn't change. The junk that I have heard about Nash having a better career just annoys me and I want to make sure I'm not going crazy.

Also unless we were able to change Kidd's and Nash's current team, we can't really say that this player would do a better job if he was in other's position. Do I think that Nash's game would decline if he played for the current Nets? Yes I do but I don't have the exact facts that show I am right.