<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">That's ridiculous lol....Nash's ability to hit 3's and score carried the Suns thru much of the playoffs. Those happen to be areas where Kidd is at his weakest, SHOOTING THE BALL. If ur the teams leader, and PG, ur ability to shoot the ball will make of break ur team at some point. That's the difference between the two right now, you can depend on Nash to knockdown shot in big games. Kidd's jumper has always been suspect.</div> So where has Nash brought the Suns? You say he has all the tools of a "PG", he has his supporting cast... So what happened? Kidd, with no jump shot, had less supporting cast... still took the Nets to 2 East rings, been in the playoffs... Hmmm
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NbaBaller:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd can't carry the offense? So who exactly was carrying it during two straight nba finals apperance. As for Nash, just because he can get a shot off does not give him a higher basketball IQ. That is just stupid to say. Where was Nash's IQ during the 38 point loss. If he can shoot at will, why was he shutdown by Kidd? If Nash's defense flaws don't matter then neither does Kidd's jumpshot. We do have Carter and Jefferson who takes the shots.</div> Ur a Nets fan, so I understand ur pain. But be honest with yourself. Kidd NEVER carried the Nets on offense. He created offense for his teammates, but he was never the focal point of the offense, even in the finals. But that was like 5yrs ago, so it's irrelevant anyway. You wanna compare teams, but I'd say Phoenix and New Jersey are pretty even if you take Amare out of the equation. I also don't think it's stupid to say Nash's IQ is better. Jason Kidd is bigger, faster, and stronger. But Nash is a better playmaker at this point. Why? because he consistently outsmarts his opponents. That's why he's able to get past his defender without using quickness or speed. I'd easily take Nash over Kidd right now. If the game is on the line, and I need my point guard to come thru, Kidd isn't nearly the threat Nash is.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ur a Nets fan, so I understand ur pain. But be honest with yourself. Kidd NEVER carried the Nets on offense. He created offense for his teammates, but he was never the focal point of the offense, even in the finals.</div> Well he averaged 20.8 ppg in the 2002 nba finals. K-Mart had averaged 1.8 more points. He was the leader for the Nets in scoring in the 2003 Nba finals with 19.7 ppg. Check these 2 pages if you don't believe me. http://www.nba.com/nets/stats/2002/nba_finals_stats.html http://www.nba.com/nets/stats/2001/nba_finals_stats.html Kidd created offense for his teammates, and was the focal point of the offense.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Ur a Nets fan, so I understand ur pain. But be honest with yourself. Kidd NEVER carried the Nets on offense. He created offense for his teammates, but he was never the focal point of the offense, even in the finals. But that was like 5yrs ago, so it's irrelevant anyway. You wanna compare teams, but I'd say Phoenix and New Jersey are pretty even if you take Amare out of the equation. I also don't think it's stupid to say Nash's IQ is better. Jason Kidd is bigger, faster, and stronger. But Nash is a better playmaker at this point. Why? because he consistently outsmarts his opponents. That's why he's able to get past his defender without using quickness or speed. I'd easily take Nash over Kidd right now. If the game is on the line, and I need my point guard to come thru, Kidd isn't nearly the threat Nash is.</div> Excuse me... Kidd "NEVER" carried the Nets on offense? Better check your facts. In their first Championship run, Jason Kidd led the Nets in scoring in each of the playoff series and averaged a triple-double in the Eastern Conference Finals (17.5 ppg, 10.2 apg and 11.2 rpg), joining Magic Johnson as the only two players in NBA history to average a triple-double in a playoff series of six or more games. Without "offense" Kidd still is the better PG, If Nash didn't have his shooting where would he be?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AMS_ice:</div><div class="quote_post">Excuse me... Kidd "NEVER" carried the Nets on offense? Better check your facts. In their first Championship run, Jason Kidd led the Nets in scoring in each of the playoff series and averaged a triple-double in the Eastern Conference Finals (17.5 ppg, 10.2 apg and 11.2 rpg), joining Magic Johnson as the only two players in NBA history to average a triple-double in a playoff series of six or more games. Without "offense" Kidd still is the better PG, If Nash didn't have his shooting where would he be?</div> How is this an argument? Well he does have his shooting, so how is that relevant? If Kidd didn't have his passing where would he be? Huh? How stupid does that sound. I mean it's stupid enough when people say this for something like height or quickness, but a skill like shooting, something that's not a talent, it's not even reasonable. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow... You really believe that Nash is better... Tsk tsk tsk... Phoenix has a lot of players who can hit the 3's. Nash gets his assists via kick out passes when he hits a road block inside. And as for Kidd's assists... He avg. close to 9 even without outside shooters around him, even when Carter handles the ball a lot. Unlike Nash, Kidd doesn't need to be a scorer to get his assists. Teams double up on him simply because he is "Jason Kidd", Kidd creates opportunity for his teammates without having to score. Kidd hurts teams more than 1 way. And to say he can't sustain his defense is ridiculous... He avg. 7.3 rpg. last season, matching his career high in his 1st season with the Nets. And this coming off surgery. Nash has 2 great seasons under him... Jason Kidd has 14! Great players make their teammates better no matter who they are. Kidd has done than through out his career. Kidd has been a star since his rookie year and will be in the Hall of Fame. Kidd is the "Best Point Guard" in the NBA today. Now that's a fact! </div> Why are you telling me what I already posted? Didn't I just say Nash has more shooters (in addition to playing a faster pace) and it's harder for Kidd to put out the same assist output? Me saying he can't sustain his defense is not riduculous, how many guards have you seen that were 1st team All-Defense into their late 30's? Like I said, Payton was a <u>better</u> defender than Kidd, he was a DPOY guy, and he lost his ability to play first team defense as age caught up to him, and he didn't even have any knee problems. I also didn't say Kidd can't sustain his rebounding, so I don't know what 7.3 RPG has to do with anything. I'm talking about man to man defense here, right now he's already unable to stay in front of quicker guys, and uses more of his ability to funnell guys into help defense. Quickness goes away, especially if you've had knee surgery to go along with getting older. Also Kidd does not have 14 great seasons, he didn't have great seasons every year of his career, neither was he a star as a rookie. Even then, I don't see the thread title saying "Who has had the better career", I see "Who is better". How good Kidd was during his peak is not relevant because he's not at his peak anymore. Nash bloomed later than Kidd and is at his peak while Kidd is out of his, so that gives him the advantage. That doesn't mean Nash's peak is better than Kidd's, it means exactly what I stated, Nash is in his peak right now, Kidd is not, plain and simple. Career wise, Kidd easily trumps Nash. Nash's peak though matches, and to some surpasses Kidd's, though I don't agree with that, because Kidd at his peak while still not the scorer was a better scorer than he is now, and a far superior defender. But again, that's not the question.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post"> Why are you telling me what I already posted? Didn't I just say Nash has more shooters (in addition to playing a faster pace) and it's harder for Kidd to put out the same assist output? Me saying he can't sustain his defense is not riduculous, how many guards have you seen that were 1st team All-Defense into their late 30's? Like I said, Payton was a <u>better</u> defender than Kidd, he was a DPOY guy, and he lost his ability to play first team defense as age caught up to him, and he didn't even have any knee problems. I also didn't say Kidd can't sustain his rebounding, so I don't know what 7.3 RPG has to do with anything. I'm talking about man to man defense here, right now he's already unable to stay in front of quicker guys, and uses more of his ability to funnell guys into help defense. Quickness goes away, especially if you've had knee surgery to go along with getting older. Also Kidd does not have 14 great seasons, he didn't have great seasons every year of his career, neither was he a star as a rookie. Even then, I don't see the thread title saying "Who has had the better career", I see "Who is better". How good Kidd was during his peak is not relevant because he's not at his peak anymore. Nash bloomed later than Kidd and is at his peak while Kidd is out of his, so that gives him the advantage. That doesn't mean Nash's peak is better than Kidd's, it means exactly what I stated, Nash is in his peak right now, Kidd is not, plain and simple. Career wise, Kidd easily trumps Nash. Nash's peak though matches, and to some surpasses Kidd's, though I don't agree with that, because Kidd at his peak while still not the scorer was a better scorer than he is now, and a far superior defender. But again, that's not the question.</div> Sorry... but was I talking to you?
Considering you quoted og15 on the post on page 3, I'm pretty sure you were, also even if you weren't (though you were), since when are we not allowed to input on reply's to other people?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">How is this an argument? Well he does have his shooting, so how is that relevant? If Kidd didn't have his passing where would he be? Huh? How stupid does that sound. I mean it's stupid enough when people say this for something like height or quickness, but a skill like shooting, something that's not a talent, it's not even reasonable. </div> What the ?!#@... That's not relevant? Then what is?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NbaBaller:</div><div class="quote_post">Well he averaged 20.8 ppg in the 2002 nba finals. K-Mart had averaged 1.8 more points. He was the leader for the Nets in scoring in the 2003 Nba finals with 19.7 ppg. Check these 2 pages if you don't believe me. http://www.nba.com/nets/stats/2002/nba_finals_stats.html http://www.nba.com/nets/stats/2001/nba_finals_stats.html Kidd created offense for his teammates, and was the focal point of the offense.</div> So I guess Og15 doesn't think this is relevant as well?
You can't say if Nash didn't have his shooting, that's stupid. You can't just take out parts of what makes these guys good. That's like saying if Kidd didn't have his defense or his passing. Well then he's not Kidd anymore, Nash isn't Nash without his shooting. Also you're a very random person, I never said Kidd wasn't the focal point of the offense, so what does that have to do with me? I'm not going to argue against something I agree with...you're a very interesting character lol. Note: I was only reffering to the BOLDED part, which is why I bolded it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Considering you quoted og15 on the post on page 3, I'm pretty sure you were, also even if you weren't (though you were), since when are we not allowed to input on reply's to other people?</div> That's right page 3... not 4
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Also you're a very random person, I never said Kidd wasn't the focal point of the offense, so what does that have to do with me? I'm not going to argue against something I agree with...you're a very interesting character lol. </div> Well... Whatever to spice up the threads. Nothing personal though.
Just a forewarning here....but if this doesn't get under control, I'm closing this thread. I don't need a flame-war going on here.
I think Nash is another Kidd. I know I used to be a big fan of Kidd, but now Nash is doing the same thing. I like Nash better because he has better shooting skills than Kidd and averages more assist. But its also arguable that Nash doesnt play defense. Both are great PG's. But if I had to chose one to start my team out with, it would be Steve Nash. Since he, I believe is in the prime of his career.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">Just a forewarning here....but if this doesn't get under control, I'm closing this thread. I don't need a flame-war going on here.</div> Nothing personal.. just enjoying the discussions.
No doubt. Kidd is better than Nash. Please. Nash is only good within the Phoenix Suns system. He wasn't even worth mentioning back in Dallas.
^^He was very good in Dallas, just not a playmaker, but that is because dallas ran an extreme run and gun style, emphasising on the gun, and NO defense
