Okay as Warrior fans we might have made certain projections and were totally wrong years later or instantly. What were those things? I'll try to remember some. Troy Murphy -> improves to the level of an offensive Tim Duncan LITE (post-up turn-around midrange jumper, pump fake master, jab steps, ambidexterity). Well he has the turn around jumper, jab steps and pump fakes at least and he can rebound. Doesn't pass or play much paint D or do the other things a TD Lite player would do. In terms of stars, he's probably closer to Dirk since he was a former high school guard. The sad thing is Murphy can pass very well, but he's got no floor vision or instinct to do this as well as Dunleavy can. Adonal Foyle -> Ben Wallace lite. Okay this was me being optistmic why Foyle was Mullin's first career free agent signing. I'd like to say it was drugs, but I don't do those. Wish I did to save embarassment. I never thought Foyle would be this far near the end of his career. Maybe it's the weight gain to 270 lbs from 250 lbs that has made him stiff and ungainly or maybe it's just because that's the way Foyle always was and how Dampier never played up to his potential. Also the fact Foyle's actually being relied upon to touch the ball in our current offense rather than just chase it down? When were his hands this bad and can't the guy lose some weight now that there's no Shaq in the West to contend with? Murphy can already guard Dirk and Duncan a little bit and the centers in this league aren't really anything to worry about. Nobody can guard Yao, though. Derek Fisher -> Milwaukee Bucks Damon Jones. Either way we cut it, he's as good as or worse than DJ now when it comes to ballhandling pressure, playmaking, guarding other point guards. I'd rather have DJ though. Taller + better contract + supposedly better playmaking than Fish if he's also not hoisting it early in the clock. Mickael Pietrus -> Ricky Davis. Man he ain't even as good or smart as Ricky Davis. Good defense when he tries, nice dunk ability, pretty raw but decent ballhandling skills, nice baseline 3-point shot (especially in waning seconds of the clock), but damn is this guy dumb. He represents the Warriors as a proud team member, but the guy needs a brain transplant so he can avoid those costly turnovers throughout the game and make the Warriors look intelligent as basketball players. He probably frustrates his team members too whenever he goes nuts or has a brain fart.
Dunleavy, Jrich, Speedy, Dampier, Jamison were kind of easy to guess and not get too overly optimistic about. Dunleavy's upside wasn't through the roof due to limited physical talent plus he's a perfect glue guy if he could shoot and create some just like on Duke's championship team, Jrich was a forward to guard type project but was hardworking/talented enough to help an NCAA championship team and improve a few things over the years, Speedy was great defensively and handling the ball, but was too injured, too soft spoken, and lacked other parts of the game to be complete as a starter at a leadership position like point guard, Damp had questionable motives plus he requires too much to keep him motivated, Jamison is good enough to be an-allstar but only on a winning team that already has franchise players. That's about it. I might have overrated guys like Joe Johnson, Boris Diaw, James Jones, Jumaine Jones, DaSagana Diop in the past, but most of them are okay or pretty good now in their current team's contexts. Maybe the whole wrongess I've had about Murphy/Pietrus/Foyle/Fisher in '04 has got me to dislike them even more. Who knows. All I can say is Foyle + Fish weren't really good ideas when it came to point guard and center in '04, but I gave Mullin the benefit of the doubt as new GM and I just learned to be optimistic and like the signings... Way way optimistic to the point of having blind faith in Mullin's signings until the season panned out really bad. We still have the same team as '04 with Baron sometimes.
CR2, I've always harbored a suspicion that the idea with Fish was to have him for a year or three while the young guards developed and then move him. And imho, we did get value for him. If only it had worked so well with Foyle....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DTKennedy:</div><div class="quote_post">CR2, I've always harbored a suspicion that the idea with Fish was to have him for a year or three while the young guards developed and then move him. And imho, we did get value for him. If only it had worked so well with Foyle....</div> Well, Fish might have been a placeholder for when we drafted a rookie guard, but that didn't come until later and after Baron Davis was acquired. If Fisher was supposed to help current starter Speedy Claxton, I'm not so sure... both are backups and occasional starters. Claxton is considered a vet and probably more suited for defensive, pass first, fastbreak type of play. I'm also not sure a shooting guard to point guard like Dfish would suit a future pick like Monta Ellis who the team probably wants to be a future point guard. I figure we might need a pure point for that so might as well stick with Baron Davis and dump Fisher (good idea by Mullin). Somebody that can give Ellis tips on how to see plays before they happen, what to recognize in reading team defenses, how to remember where things are by scanning very briefly, how to slow plays down inside his head. I mean most of this stuff is just learned by experience, but it sometimes helpful to learn mental tips from guys who can run a fastbreak the right way and give pointers on how to process more smoothly. That's why I wish Monta Ellis would just go to college so he can become experienced in running a team. Now he's got to go through the risky and unproven route of becoming a high school to nba pro point guard. I don't think there has been one successful guy in this league to become a good starting point guard out of high school. But I shouldn't complain or else we wouldn't get this guy in the 2nd round. The other high schooler I liked in the second round was Andray Blatche. He's got some good basic skill and potential to be a Kevin Garnett. The crux of such a player is that a team needs to find a good center or its dead in the water.
Point well taken. Maybe I'm giving Mully too much credit for forward thinking LOL. Honestly my first thought with both the fish and foyle signings was 'WTF???'.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DTKennedy:</div><div class="quote_post">Point well taken. Maybe I'm giving Mully too much credit for forward thinking LOL. Honestly my first thought with both the fish and foyle signings was 'WTF???'.</div> It's okay, I gave Mullin too much credit for his initial thinking. Honestly, I didn't think Mullin had enough assets to turn around the franchise in two years. He had to build from the draft starting at #11. I just found it funny for him to label the team a playoff team in '04. Foyle and Fisher, man... awful. But since Mullin was the new guy and there was this aura that he could do no wrong as one of the Warriors best players, it kind of blinded me. Plus, I did underrate his '03 team. '03 at least made better sense than '04 in team design as there were multiple passers/defenders at PG/PF/C. Our rebounding was better too despite Clif Robinson not being very good at that. I think it has to do with actually making defensive stops so we could get the defensive rebounds. LOL One thing was certain: Claxton and NVE and Avery Johnson all ran the fastbreak better than Fisher ever could. Foyle and Murphy ain't the same as Clif Robinson and Dampier. I think Robinson and Dampier could have been one-time all-stars, but not Murphy or Foyle... ever!
I haven't seen a better post defender than Cliff on the W's in the last 5 years +. He really made opposing centers work for every point. And think of this: for around half of what we're paying for Foyle, we could have signed 2 equally untalented stiffs (on short contracts) to hold down the center spot for a year or two.
Or Mullin could have just bit on the Damp trade to NY for Othella Harrington, Nazr Mohammed, or somebody that's filler + picks. Kurt Thomas might have even been offered up as well. I don't remember. I don't think it was just a Peter Vescey rumor and we know that guy is full of it like our own bay area writers. Lots of guys were reporting that initial trade and I believe Isiah would have allowed it like he allowed Jerome James blunders and risking Eddy Curry for unprotected lotto picks. Who knows where the actual trade fell through. I remember Nazr Mohammed not being happy about going to Oakland.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Or Mullin could have just bit on the Damp trade to NY for Othella Harrington, Nazr Mohammed, or somebody that's filler + picks. Kurt Thomas might have even been offered up as well. I don't remember. I don't think it was just a Peter Vescey rumor and we know that guy is full of it like our own bay area writers. Lots of guys were reporting that initial trade and I believe Isiah would have allowed it like he allowed Jerome James blunders and risking Eddy Curry for unprotected lotto picks. Who knows where the actual trade fell through. I remember Nazr Mohammed not being happy about going to Oakland.</div> Right, point being there were plenty of more flexible options.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DTKennedy:</div><div class="quote_post">Right, point being there were plenty of more flexible options.</div> As far as we can both tell. I mean we're all on the outside looking in, really. Grabbing two vet guys that would have helped some at PF and C would alleviate some stress we have had in trying to find depth at those positions. The '04-05 and '05-'06 seasons were just not very deep years for those positions. They were all backed by rookies or projects or finesse type tweeners that just weren't ready for big minutes. What we really needed was some defense to make stops, and then get the defensive rebounds. I want to restate for the audience on this board that poor defense with allowed field goal %'s of high 40%'s and lower 50%'s will still get Murphy his 10 boards, but it doesn't help our overall control of the defensive glass and his style on offense won't get us positioning for offensive rebounds near the bucket. Let's not go into transition defense as well... Murphy + Foyle = horrible getting back. The main argument I have is that if we made more stops at the rim, it means more volume of lower % midrange or outside jump shots for the other team because they don't want to get rejected or roughed up going inside, it also means less intentional foul trouble for guys not named Troy Murphy, more defensive rebounds for everyone including more for Murphy if he just helped out in the paint more to make a stop. Our perimeter D ain't that good, but our paint D with Murphy is really bad. Murphy is an okay perimeter D type guy (as slow as he is), but paint D is what we need because a smart team will just work to get our only shotblocker, Foyle, out on the switch or draw him out with a center that can shoot or the other team will just bust up one of our perimeter defenders like it ain't nothing (slow lateral movement everywhere). A laterally slow, hardworking all-around D, 5 man team without Murphy IMO is still good/adequate enough defensively to slow down another team if they cover for each other in help D. I would prefer strong man to man assignments with minor help, but it's too late to start over. We need to ride the Baron/Jrich/Ike thing and see where it goes. Miami wasn't that great of a defensive team, but they had an inside and outside thread. I sure hope we can emulate that with Baron/Jrich outside attack + passing + dribble penetration and Diogu inside/outside attack at PF with college 3 shooting and inside scoring footwork + ability to post and repost and hit outside shooters. We haven't had one guy able to post up on the blocks and kick out to a jump shooter since Dampier and Dampier was no offensive player.
Foyle - Wallace lite: Definitely. I mean, I didn't expect Foyle to replace Dampier. However, I also thought he would be somewhat adaquate, bringing inside presence... Then he faded fast. Real fast. Dunleavy - Larry Bird ver. 2: OK, I never bought into Bird comparison or even hype of being 3rd pick. I thought he would be adaquate starter, who can shoot from outside and defensive liability. Er... Even though I set my bar quite low, even that wasn't fulfilled. Last season, Dunleavy's biggest weapon was driving to the hoop, and if it weren't for the sterotype (or illusion) that Dunelavy can shoot from the outside, he would never get a line to drive. Pietrus - Mason: Well, he still can be a defensive stopper with offense skills. But, will he ever develop some basketball sense? Mullin - savior: Three years ago, if somebody said Mullin would do worse job than Saint, he would be mobbed by Warriors fan. Actually, even today, he still gets away with a lot of things just because he was a great Warriors player. Davis - savior: For now we ate crow for that...
I was pretty high on Zarko a little after we got Baron. I think I referred to him as a poor man's Dirk. Unfortunetly last season he lacked the consistant shooting touch and confidence to really be affective and get alot of playing time.
Yeah, only if Zarko can shoot, defend and grab rebound like he is 6'10", he would have become a very good player. Another unfulfilled talent...
Things I might have said: Maybyner "Nene" Hilario and Chris Wilcox would all be better than Dunleavy in terms of impact. Nikoloz Tskitishvilli would be a good gamble. LOL. Maybe one of the first two is arguable. Plain wrong about Skita's upside. Was big on Amare, despite him being labeled the next Kwame Brown.
I had higher hopes for Adonal a few years ago. I had the Idea Monty would at least be an average coach. I think Foyle-minus 15 pounds-would be a lot better on D. Murphy probably could drop a few lb too. I was never keen on Fish or Dun-they each turned out even below my expectations. I want to see Murphy-Pietrus-Zark salvaged by a new-better-coach. I DON'T want Monty to screw up Monta and Ike and POB.
I raved about Murphy and Zarko. Until Murphy signed a huge deal and no longer become a steal and a "player to watch out for" and Zarko did a lot worse this year like all the rest (I guess these guys suck on offense when they become more allergic to defense and having to try and execute offensively). Anyway, Murphy's contract is considered decent for a guy with consistent numbers, but numbers can lie depending on the context we're looking at. Dunleavy's re-signing just forced Zarko out, which is a pity because if we're talking versatility and a tad better matchup nightmare,... well I'm in favor of Zarko. Ike could have also forced Zarko out, but it's not like this guy got much playing time either and Ike is a pure position player at PF (not SF, not C in which Zarko can play any of the frontcourt spots because he has no true position). Instead this year it was Dun/Murphy platooning the small forward/power forward position and power forward/center position with sometimes Pietrus playing power forward. I complain about soft power forward/center all the time, but Zarko isn't exactly rough and tumble compared to Dun and Murphy. But for some reason he seems to attack the rim more easily than Dunleavy and Murphy do and he passes just as well as Dunleavy when paired up with Biedrins or Ike or some other big man that can catch and finish. Zarko seems to be more above the rim than Dunleavy or Murphy and that's a plus for an athletic backcourt type team. I mean screw layups, dunk that fool! If i'm building around an athletic backcourt that has athletes, I want more athletes that can fit in with the tempo. Zarko can be a nightmare matchup with all that length and agility. It's just too bad Zarko isn't really making a case for himself as a good bench player and somebody who could force Murphy and Dunleavy out as utility guys. Compared to other players in this league, I'd rather not have Murphy and Dunleavy in the starting lineup unless we shed one of those guys immediately. I don't like either and only Murphy has value in this league right now. Dun may have some as long as execs make excuses for him on why his individual skills haven't translated to the pros very well. Also a good team really only needs 8 or 9 players in a starting rotation. I'd like to see this sometime near the future: 5 guys play pure positions with the ability to play bigger in a smaller lineup. Jrich is a tweener, but that's okay if small forward behaves more like a shooting guard. I like him because he's got the ability to score like a cross between Vince Carter and Desmond Mason. Point guard must be pure unless he can learn how to pass and make others better. power forward and center should be interchangeable, with power forward behaving more like a small forward on offense (extended shot range, some dribbling, some passing) and defend/rebound/score inside like a center. The the bench would be like 3 or 4 players that can fill in some time at backcourt or frontcourt positions. Zarko would be a cool player to have as one of those 4 so long as he can bounce back. Zarko - SF/PF/C Biedrins or Taft - PF/C combo guard can swing between point or shooting guard or we can just have a pure point guard, since Baron could play shooting guard. Monta Ellis could just be the combo guard if we can afford his services and he keeps improving. The biggest worry is what do we do about G/F? Talk about a hole. We've got two sides of the extreme with that position. A guy closer to shooting guard size/weight that has no I.Q. or shot finesse to run the two. And another guy that is a lanky SF Dan Langhi 6'10" power forward size but plays more like a shooting guard that also can't shoot very well, especially when wide open. I don't necessarily blame the system all the way, it's the guys we have in the big positions and the wing. It's a suckfest. There's no way we can slim everything down to 8 or 9 players because half or more of those guys are sucky dudes with extremely large contract deals. I'd rather we just play the rookies if it's safe to do so. I just assume that the guys who do this for a living ought to know what is best for players, especially a guy that has built a college program and turned it around with his recruits. I respect more about what a coach knows versus a crappy GM that never ran a team. Heck I like any coach that has played point guard or could play point guard if they had the body. They seem to know more about things like chemistry, teamwork, and roles on a team.
