4 years without the play-offs and counting for the Toronto Raptors. This franchise has made plenty of mistakes. Just want to hear your takes on when and how the Raps screwed up.
Actually it's been 3 years. We had the team in 03-04 to make the playoffs, but we were screwed by injuries to Alvin and the big one to Rose. We probably wouldn't have made it far because we didn't have a bench at all except for Mo Pete (when Alvin was healthy). I liked the Rose trade though because both Rose and Marshall played very well for us. In 04-05, we had the whole Carter thing, and after we traded him, it really became the start of the rebuilding process, by building around Bosh. Last year we just started out bad, we were in alotttt of close games, that were decided in the last 90 seconds or final few seconds. We traded Rose away for basically cap space and to convince BC to come to Toronto. Then we stunk it up at the season, especially when Bosh was out for the year. I liked the trio we had of Mike-Mo-Bosh with Charlie having his big games. Now we have a completely new roster, an upgrade from last year but how much?
I agree, 03-04 was the season where Toronto could've gotten farther than they did, but injuries really took a toll on the Raptors. It's not like the Raptors would've gotten that far anyway, the depth on that team was piss poor. I'd say the biggest moments where the Raptors screwed up was when they drafted Araujo and traded away Carter for a sack of potatoes and a box of cereal. Babcock is obviously the one to blame, but I don't think that he was the source for all of the Raptors problems at the time.
I put most of the blame on Grunwald refusing to retool and rebuild the team after 03-04. Most of the trades or moves from then on ate up cap room were made out of desperation.
Even though I really like chris bosh and where this team is heading right now.. I think everything started when we drafted chris bosh.. no disrespect to CB4 I love CB4 check my nickname.. LOL That year VC asked GM to trade the pick and draft a veteran center. VC said that becuz GM aksed his opinion as VC was always quite about those stuff. (If I am not mistaken ) However, GM drafted Chris bosh and I think that's where VC and Toronto Raptors decided to go different ways. If your Franchise player and your franchise dont work for each other,,
Not re-signing T-Mac. The entire organization should have been doing everything to coddle and basically (pump T Mac tires) to the Media/Fans. Make him feel wanted. Instead they just let him play second fiddle to VC. I also remember Butch Carter being critical of him in the media, WHile i understand butch was probably trying to motivate him... but for a guy out of highschool and hadn't under an intense media market (eg. not college basketball) it was probably hard on him. And made him want to be close to his family in orlando. I just think Vince and T-mac would have served as motivation for one another playing on the same team. Ech night trying push one another....National T.V games players actually wantingt to play in toronto. That was our best shot at a championship sofar.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Drunkballer:</div><div class="quote_post">Not re-signing T-Mac. The entire organization should have been doing everything to coddle and basically (pump T Mac tires) to the Media/Fans. Make him feel wanted. Instead they just let him play second fiddle to VC. I also remember Butch Carter being critical of him in the media, WHile i understand butch was probably trying to motivate him... but for a guy out of highschool and hadn't under an intense media market (eg. not college basketball) it was probably hard on him. And made him want to be close to his family in orlando. I just think Vince and T-mac would have served as motivation for one another playing on the same team. Ech night trying push one another....National T.V games players actually wantingt to play in toronto. That was our best shot at a championship sofar.</div> with all due respect- resigning tmac was not an option, and if u remember, butch wasn't the problem, it was the other dude who coached him in his rookie season. butch was tmac's greatest well-wisher and he still credits him for the progress he's made. plus, tmac is no saviour either- he's injury prone and still hasn't made it past the first round.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ohmybosh:</div><div class="quote_post">Even though I really like chris bosh and where this team is heading right now.. I think everything started when we drafted chris bosh.. no disrespect to CB4 I love CB4 check my nickname.. LOL That year VC asked GM to trade the pick and draft a veteran center. VC said that becuz GM aksed his opinion as VC was always quite about those stuff. (If I am not mistaken ) However, GM drafted Chris bosh and I think that's where VC and Toronto Raptors decided to go different ways. If your Franchise player and your franchise dont work for each other,,</div> Wait.. So VC asked Grunwald to draft a veteran centre? How does that work? Well Vince obviously isn't going to be a talented GM anytime soon if he wanted to trade Bosh that badly. I'm all up for marquee players having a say on how the team is built, but they need to put up with it because their job isn't to do that sort of thing. If Vince was that upset about it, he would have pouted a lot earlier. I think the reason Carter left was because of the constant coaching changes, the fact that Toronto was rebuilding and the drafting of an utterly useless big man.
What screwed us..... alvins contract hakeem's contract JYD's contract TOO MUCH MONEY FOR TOO MANY YEARS GRUNWALD Was like freekin santa that year
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting asdf:</div><div class="quote_post">Wait.. So VC asked Grunwald to draft a veteran centre? How does that work? Well Vince obviously isn't going to be a talented GM anytime soon if he wanted to trade Bosh that badly. I'm all up for marquee players having a say on how the team is built, but they need to put up with it because their job isn't to do that sort of thing. If Vince was that upset about it, he would have pouted a lot earlier. I think the reason Carter left was because of the constant coaching changes, the fact that Toronto was rebuilding and the drafting of an utterly useless big man.</div> Well... If we did trade the pick we could have gotten veteran center and if we have gotten veteran center, we didnt have to keep wondering whether we should start rebuilding with CB or just stay with VC. As you said, VC left because of team's direction( going nowhere at that time) what I'm sayin is ALL this stuff started becuase of drafting CB. We had no idea what to do with both VC and CB. I remember some people were saying stick with VC(what babcock thought) and other sayin trade VC and go with CB. IMO, VC didn't get the respect that every other franchise players were getting from their team.
Management. Darn Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment and their monopoly. At least if we had Brian Collangelo when we had Vince, we woulda got equal value for him. But hind-sight is 20/20 and Im looking towards the future with this team.
I don't think VC and T-Mac would have worked out here anyways. With all due respect to both players, they have HUGE egos. It wasn't until TMac hit the lows with Orlando and Vince with the Raptors and the injuries that they both realized that the team was more important than the individual. Saying that, I am STILL not entirely convinced that these players put their team in front of their own accomplishments. Too many times, it looks like they're playing for their own stats. Even if this combination would have been great in theory, I'm still not sold that it would have necessarily lead us to a championship.
^^ i totally agree with everything you said. i would think that t-mac and vince on the same team would just be them competing against eachother for stats and who is better instead of playing team ball.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">with all due respect- resigning tmac was not an option, and if u remember, butch wasn't the problem, it was the other dude who coached him in his rookie season. butch was tmac's greatest well-wisher and he still credits him for the progress he's made. plus, tmac is no saviour either- he's injury prone and still hasn't made it past the first round.</div> Yeh sorry I meant to Darrell Walker. I mean hindsight is 20/20 forsure so now its easy to lookback and say he was injury prone but he never had that problem with the raptors(He missed 1 game his sophmore year and 3 in his 3rd season. His rookie year he only played in 64 (but he might have been victim to DNP( coache's decision). Eliminating last year where he was injured and his rookier year T mac only missed on avg. 5.8 games a year between 1998-1999 and 2004-2005. Anyway I think anytime your the team that can offer a player the most money and the most year which the raptors were able to give him, due to having his "bird rights" you should do everything you can to get him to buy into the the organization. Obviously at in the end the situation became irreversible...but i think from the day he was drafted the team should have been doing everything to accomodate him and avoid the grim result that was the sign and trade deal to orlando. Im just saying that so far that was the Raptor's best chance to field a championship caliber team and they failed. I mean 00-01 T-Mac average 26.8 ppg 7.5 rpg and 4.6 apg. That year Vince avg. 27.7 ppg 5.5 rpg and 3.9 apg. But who knows maybe t-mac needed to get out of vince's shadow to truly blossom. However, there roster would have looked like this C Antonio Davis 13.7 ppg 10.1 rpg and 1.94 BPG PF Oakley 9.6 ppg 9.5 RPG 3.4 apg Sf T-Mac 26.8 ppg 7.5 rpg and 4.6 apg Sg VC 27.7 ppg 5.5 rpg and 3.9 apg. Pg. Alvin Williams 9.4 ppg 5.0 apg 1.5 spg Bench Dell Curry( As the sharpshooter) Keon Clarke( the guy who alters shots/throws down sick dunks) or Kevin Willis JYD (hustle energy player) C. Childs (sturdy back up pg) Mo-pete (Rookie who can score) Anyway this is all hypothetical but it would have been a pretty sick team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ohmybosh:</div><div class="quote_post">Well... If we did trade the pick we could have gotten veteran center and if we have gotten veteran center, we didnt have to keep wondering whether we should start rebuilding with CB or just stay with VC. As you said, VC left because of team's direction( going nowhere at that time) what I'm sayin is ALL this stuff started becuase of drafting CB. We had no idea what to do with both VC and CB. I remember some people were saying stick with VC(what babcock thought) and other sayin trade VC and go with CB. IMO, VC didn't get the respect that every other franchise players were getting from their team.</div> It doesn't change the fact that VC isn't the general manager of the team, Babcock was. Vince Carter is a basketball player, he isn't in charge of signing/trading players. If he was THAT picky about trading and acquiring players (I don't think thats the case) then I'm glad we got rid of him. By the way, there were no good veteran centres at the time (Hakeem looked like a decent one), and no one was willing to come to Toronto.
who knows...if we kept tmac, the raps wouldnt have been able to afford other players that gave us that playoff run in 01. losing t-mac gave us depth, which in the end is what led to our success. people forget...keeping tmac WASNT an option...he was an unrestricted free agent...he didnt WANT to stay in toronoto...losing tmac was inevitable but id say a major prob the raps have had in not making the playoffs has been injuries
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> At least if we had Brian Collangelo when we had Vince, we woulda got equal value for him </div> I know Rob was a horrible GM, but you can't really justify that BC would have gotten more for Vince because VC put us in a absolute horrid position in terms of getting worthy value when trading for him. From the constant 5 pointer games, to the lack of hustle, as well as the "I'm not a dunker anymore" comments, Vince Carter was the epitome of a "disgruntled" superstar at the time. He absolutely wanted to get out of here so I'm sure any other smart GM in the league would have tried to squeeze as little as possible out of thier own roster to trade for a player like him. However, I think Babcock's biggest mistake was letting Zo go for virtually nothing....and drafting Hoffa of course.
