I do. Wilt was a great player. But why couldn't he win as often. Sometimes winning determines the heart of a player.
^Hell no. Wilt is one of my favorite players. Its just sometimes it comes down to how many times you win. I mean it wasn't Chamberlain's fault all the time, because he had some shitty coaches but winning sometimes defines you. Wilt is definetly top 3 no doubt.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ManHops23:</div><div class="quote_post">So what are you saying like wilt wasn't a top 3 player of all time. even if he didn't have no rings.</div> Wilt had 2 rings
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NBA MAN:</div><div class="quote_post">^Hell no. Wilt is one of my favorite players. Its just sometimes it comes down to how many times you win. I mean it wasn't Chamberlain's fault all the time, because he had some shitty coaches but winning sometimes defines you. Wilt is definetly top 3 no doubt.</div> Alright i see what you're saying. Winning always come in play when you're discussing greats at any sport.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NBA MAN:</div><div class="quote_post">Wilt had 2 rings</div> I know that i'm just saying hypothetically if wilt didn't have two rings. he wouldn't be a top 3 player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I personally don't consider championships, awards, and honors very heavily in judging the individual greatness of a player.</div> Actually you should. What does make a great player? He should be able to lift the games of his teammates. Players around him rise to a level greater than their own. And that's what win championships. Michael jordan did that. Awards, honors and yes, championships are there to give recognition to players as well as teams. So where would you base a players greatness? So why was Jordan given so much awards? What was the 5 MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Defensive player award and other achievements for?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AMS_ice:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually you should. What does make a great player? He should be able to lift the games of his teammates. Players around him rise to a level greater than their own. And that's what win championships. Michael jordan did that. Awards, honors and yes, championships are there to give recognition to players as well as teams. So where would you base a players greatness? So why was Jordan given so much awards? What was the 5 MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Defensive player award and other achievements for?</div> Awards and honors only indirectly indicate greatness, and so I don't consider them particularly accurate. A player who was overrated, plays in a big market, or played during a time when there weren't a lot of other popular players at his position might get a ton of such honors. So what? Basically, by using such honors to guage a player's abilities, you're essentially basing your opinion on the opinions of others, instead of the player's actual abilities. As for championships, I think they might be the most overrated "stat" in sports. Jordan was a great player, probably the greatest ever, not because he won 6 championships but because he played at an unbelievably high level in the playoffs. That's what I look at ... how the players actually played. Whether or not they eventually won the championship (or many championships), from the perspective of judging individual greatness, is incidental.
^But why not combine everything from the players career and make a judgement. For example instead of judging Wilt's stats why not judge, his playoff play, clutch plays, play against the best, stats, chokes, and his total package. I mean this stat really blew me away right here: Wilt Career Season PPG: 30.1 Wilt Career Playoff PPG: 22.5
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NBA MAN:</div><div class="quote_post">^ I mean this stat really blew me away right here: Wilt Career Season PPG: 30.1 Wilt Career Playoff PPG: 22.5</div> That stat is somewhat misleading, because Wilt played the bulk of his career playoff games in the second half of his career. A better comparison would be to take his average PPG per season and compare that to his average PPG per playoff-season. Excluding the '63 season from the comparison (since he didn't play in the playoffs that year), his average season PPG was 29.0. His average playoffs PPG was 24.8. Yes, there was a dropoff, but I wouldn't make much out of it.
That is one thing we have to give Shaq props for though, he took it to another level in the post-season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ManHops23:</div><div class="quote_post">Not neccisarily centers didn't dominate all eras. Example oscar robertson,Bob cousy, dick micguire.They dominated there eras.</div>There actually has been a dominant big in every era since the 1940s. It all started with George Mikan back in the '40s. He was the first dominant big man and really changed the way the game was played back then. Beyond that, in the '40s, he was really the only big, therefore it was difficult for teams to stop him. After him, came the era of Wilt and Russell. Both dominated from the end of the '50s to the beginning of the '70s. To this day, Wilt is the only player to average 50/25 for a season, and he's the only player (I believe) with a 25/20 CAREER average. Those would be outstanding for a season, and the fact that he did it for a career is astounding. Along with him, Bill Russell also dominated that same era. While his numbers weren't as eye popping as those of Wilt's, he had a much more significant number, and that was 11 titles in 13 seasons. If that's not dominant....I don't know what was. After those two came Kareem, who, as we all know, is the NBAs career leader in points scored....so I think that says something. If that doesn't, how about 19 All Star appearances, 6 MVPs, and 5 NBA titles. And he did that throughout the '70s and '80s. And then, came Shaq after everyone of those guys, continuing the big man dominance. All he's done is gone on to win an MVP, be named one of the 50 greatest, win 4 NBA Titles, and 3 Finals MVPs. And the only reason he won't be remembered as the greatest of the '90s is because of Michael Jordan. So, if that doesn't prove show that bigs have dominated every era....I don't know what will.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NBA MAN:</div><div class="quote_post">I do. Wilt was a great player. But why couldn't he win as often. Sometimes winning determines the heart of a player.</div>The reason he couldn't win is because he played in the same era as Bill Russell for most of his career. The same Bill Russell that led the Celtics to 11 titles in 13 years. So....I think that's a good reason as to why he couldn't win as much.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Awards and honors only indirectly indicate greatness, and so I don't consider them particularly accurate. A player who was overrated, plays in a big market, or played during a time when there weren't a lot of other popular players at his position might get a ton of such honors. So what? Basically, by using such honors to guage a player's abilities, you're essentially basing your opinion on the opinions of others, instead of the player's actual abilities. As for championships, I think they might be the most overrated "stat" in sports. Jordan was a great player, probably the greatest ever, not because he won 6 championships but because he played at an unbelievably high level in the playoffs. That's what I look at ... how the players actually played. Whether or not they eventually won the championship (or many championships), from the perspective of judging individual greatness, is incidental.</div> These kind of posts cannot be repeated enough. The media has tarnished many great legends in every sport by referring to rings/awards and such. I judge players based upon their individual performances.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">That is one thing we have to give Shaq props for though, he took it to another level in the post-season.</div> Shoot, not in these playoffs... normally, but this year was rough.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">That stat is somewhat misleading, because Wilt played the bulk of his career playoff games in the second half of his career. A better comparison would be to take his average PPG per season and compare that to his average PPG per playoff-season. Excluding the '63 season from the comparison (since he didn't play in the playoffs that year), his average season PPG was 29.0. His average playoffs PPG was 24.8. Yes, there was a dropoff, but I wouldn't make much out of it.</div> Yeah I guess you're right about that. A little less means nothing
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">The reason he couldn't win is because he played in the same era as Bill Russell for most of his career. The same Bill Russell that led the Celtics to 11 titles in 13 years. So....I think that's a good reason as to why he couldn't win as much.</div> Nah that not the reason. Wilt won most of the matchup against Bill, however his team always ended up losing. The reason he didn't win alot is because for the most part of his career, he is a one-man show on his team. I also don't consider award/honor as much because it's part of the media choice that something a player can't control. However, accomplishing an award/championship defines how great of a player you was. MJ did it with both, award and performance at the highest level on both offensively and defensively any guards can dream of. The player who comes the closest gotta be KB but he doesn't have the luck like Jordan.
all i have to say it will be hard as hell to surpass what MJ did... nearly freakin impossible ! 6 rings?! come on scoring titles, mvps, Jordan had a gift you could see it in his eyes when he put on a Bulls jersey... he was hungry... Dwade and Lebron and KObe can get 8 rings but Jordan Never let his team lose. Thats something these young guys lack. He had the ability to take a game over in a heartbeat. Did i mention he best closer in History? idk what do you guys think
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ojedachess:</div><div class="quote_post">all i have to say it will be hard as hell to surpass what MJ did... nearly freakin impossible ! 6 rings?! come on scoring titles, mvps, Jordan had a gift you could see it in his eyes when he put on a Bulls jersey... he was hungry... Dwade and Lebron and KObe can get 8 rings but Jordan Never let his team lose. Thats something these young guys lack. He had the ability to take a game over in a heartbeat. Did i mention he best closer in History? idk what do you guys think</div> So true. Kobe, Lebron, Wade are incredible players, but Jordan is in an entirely different level.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Flashback:</div><div class="quote_post">Shoot, not in these playoffs... normally, but this year was rough.</div> I'm talking about prime Shaq, not old Miami Shaq.
