Sorry for the late start guys, didn't get home early enough to make the thread. Since this round started late at 8:30 PM CT, it will go on until 8:30 PM CT on Saturday. Other than that, hope we see a good debate! What in your opinion was the worst move the Rockets made since the year 2000, and why? Only Sniper, vcwannabe15, tinyballer and Julio-R- are allowed to post in this thread. Any other posts will be deleted promptly and actions may be taken. Let the debate begin!
Look no further than draft day 2001 when the Houston Rockets traded Richard Jefferson, Jason Collins, and Brandon Armstrong to the New Jersey Nets for Eddie Griffin. In short, they traded an All-Star swingman (hasn't made it, but has the #'s) for not only an underachieving player, but an underachieving person. 5 years removed from the draft, Eddie Griffin has yet to get his personal life in check, and one has to believe that he likely never will. The worst aspect of the deal is that the Rockets got absolutely nothing in return. Nada. Zip. Zilch. They waived Griffin 2 seasons later and that was that. At a GM's very worst, he should at least be able to curb the effects of a mistake by turning it into SOMETHING positive, even if it's nothing more than the expiring contract of a has-been or the #60 draft pick. That wasn't even possible. So let's go back in time and figure out what happens if they "get it right". Now, it's impossible to predict how things would have changed with RJ, so I will assume that the Rockets still went on to have a horrible season and land Yao Ming in the following draft. That leaves them with a starting lineup of... Steve Francis Cuttino Mobley Richard Jefferson Kelvin Cato Yao Ming If management still felt the need to make the McGrady trade, things would ultimately end up like so... Mike James Tracy McGrady Richard Jefferson Juwan Howard Yao Ming With that lineup, there is absolutely no chance that the Rockets would have lost to the Dallas Mavericks in last year's playoffs, even without Juwan Howard. Now consider that the Mavericks just nearly won a championship and I think the effects of Draft Day 2001 are clearly evident. To go even further, let's plug RJ into the current lineup... Rafer Alston Tracy McGrady Richard Jefferson Shane Battier Yao Ming That's one hell of a starting lineup right there, and there's one very key element that I love about it. That is, say that Tracy's back is a problem all season long and he's in and out of the lineup. No problem! Just slide Juwan into the starting lineup and you have this (still very competitive) lineup... Rafer Alston Richard Jefferson Shane Battier Juwan Howard Yao Ming Don't forget that Jason Collins was a part of the deal as well. While he is definitely a throw-in to the deal, he's a very serviceable backup at the center position, which with Dikembe's age catching up with him, is something that should be seen as very valuable right now. In my opinion, that one decision set the Houston Rockets back a good 3 or 4 years in terms of seriously contending for a title. It also leaves them with no "replacement" for McGrady if his back is never right again, where as Jefferson would have been able to at least hold down the fort for a while. They've put themselves in a "completely healthy McGrady or bust" position, and frankly it scares the hell out of me as a life-long fan. Meanwhile in New Jersey, Richard Jefferson is flourishing alongside Vince Carter and Jason Kidd. Eddie Griffin is probably drunk and masturbating in a moving vehicle somewhere.
The rockets front office has never been known to be the wisest and definetly is not the best in the business. They have made plenty of stupid moves since the great era and it being highlighted by the 2001 and Draft where they traded Richard Jefferson Jason Collins and Brandon Armstrong to NJ for Eddie Griffin. Of couse we all know Richard Jefferson went on to become an all star but Jason Collins and Brandon Armstrong went on to have non eventful careers. Had the rockets made the right picks in that draft or more valued picks such as keeping RJ drafting Randolph and Arenas instead of Armstrong and Collins the Rockets would have been much better. Looking it from then it was great they got an ultra talented PF who was touted as #1 pick but had major character issues. But now we realise how character really is important. We basically got nothing for three valued first round draft choises and totally got ripped off. But I believe that was the worst best thing that happened to the rockets. Had the rockets made all the right picks and kept them they would still never be at the championship status. With Steve Francis and RJ you have two class B all stars two that arn't at the elite level that cannot be counted on to carry the team to championship stardom. With Francis you have a selfish point guard who likes to shoot with RJ you have a player that relies on other playmakers to get him what he has. It was the worst best thing because the next year houston #1 pick and drafted a Class A All Star who can be relied on to carry the team to the next level. Had we not made such a bad trade we would have never been able to draft yao ming who will eventually lead us to a championship. We would have not been able to draft yao because those players would have contributed more and we would have gotten a higher pick meaning no Yao Ming and we would of thought that we had our Center of the Future in Jason Collins and that we could develop him and would have not made Yao such a target. Therefore I would not classify the move of 2001 to be the worst move that the Houston Rockets ever made since the 2000 season. I consider the drafting of Bostjan Nachbar to be the worst move towards 2000. Though you may think it may not have the damage of three first round picks and its jut one fifteenth pick it would have mattered a lot. Had the rockets taken another SF in the draft that they had worked out twice in Tayshaun Prince they would be further into their journey for the championship today by a mile. They would have still gotten Mcgrady and they wouldn't have drafted and traded away an sf this seaon and would have either taken a pg or pf which would nearly complete our championship team needs. We would have had C-Yao Pf Howard or 2006 Draft SF-Tayshaun who guards the shooting guards. SG- Mcgrady who guards the SFs PG Alston or the 2006 Draft pick with guys like Marcus Williams, Ranjon Rondo, Jordan Farmar to pick from and athletic rebounding shotblockers Cedric Simmons or Hilton Armstrong to pick from. Therefore we would only be one starter away from being on top. To Further state how this move was worst then the move of the draft of 2001 had we not done that move we would have not traded for mcgrady because RJ and Mcgrady both SG/Sf type players who commence around 10 million in contract and tayshaun would have been the better fit because he is not in that need of the ball because he focus a lot more on defence and just play on what his team and defence gives him and he would not have as big a contract as he is more of an unbelivable role player rather then a Class B all star. This would have really been the pick that set us back in Yao and Tracy's Prime.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Sniper:</div><div class="quote_post">Look no further than draft day 2001 when the Houston Rockets traded Richard Jefferson, Jason Collins, and Brandon Armstrong to the New Jersey Nets for Eddie Griffin.</div> It's easy to see that Jefferson is a better player than Griffin NOW, but there is just no way you would know that back in 2001. That year the Rockets had no inside scoring. They had Kelvin Cato, Kenny Thomas, Walt Williams, and an injured Maurice Taylor (missed 2002 season). They needed offense, and Freshman Eddie Griffin was averaging: 17.8 ppg 10.8 rpg 4.4 bpg Great numbers for a Freshman, his game can only get better right? That's what the Rockets were thinking when they drafted Griffin. You can't blame the Rockets for drafting him, and saying that passing up Jefferson was a really bad move makes no sense to me unless you can see the future. It's the NBA Draft, sometimes you get Superstarts and then sometimes you get Busts. Now you're right about not being able to predict how picking RJ would affect the team. If the Rockets went with RJ things could change a lot. Using "What Ifs" don't do a lot to back up what you're saying. Picking RJ means we may not have ever gotten Yao. If the Rockets don't get Yao, they don't trade for T-Mac. The Rockets traded for T-Mac to set up a "Shaq/Kobe" like duo. If the Rockets picked RJ this team would be a whole lot different. There's no way to prove that the Rockets would end up with Alston, T-Mac, Jefferson, Battier, Yao, Deke, and any other current player. Picking RJ changes everything. It changes the W/L record, trades, player signing, and draft position. There is just no way to find out what could have been if RJ was picked instead of Griffin. That's why I don't think picking Eddie Griffin was such a bad thing. Picking Eddie Griffin lead to Yao and T-Mac, and I can't complain about that. You just can't assume things. It's easy to disagree on picks when you've already seen the results. And you can't assume that things would be the same if the Rockets picked RJ over EG, or Prince over Nachbar.
I agree that trading Richard Jefferson, Brandon Armstrong, and Jason Collins for Eddie Griffen was the worst move that the Houston Rockets made. If you look back you should see that Jefferson was a lottery pick. Why would you want to trade a lottery pick, along with two role players for another role player? Griffen was a lottery pick himself but the Rockets should have atleast let Jefferson play a couple of games and checking out how he plays before they traded him. The Rockets traded one of today's most underrated players along with 2 role players for a bust? The Rockets already had other power forwards yet they traded for another one, not even a good one, one that avarges 5 points and 5 rebounds per game? If the Rockets kept Jefferson and had Francis/McGrady, and Yao this team could have been a major threat to any team in the league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tinyballer:</div><div class="quote_post">The rockets front office has never been known to be the wisest and definetly is not the best in the business. They have made plenty of stupid moves since the great era and it being highlighted by the 2001 and Draft where they traded Richard Jefferson Jason Collins and Brandon Armstrong to NJ for Eddie Griffin. Of couse we all know Richard Jefferson went on to become an all star but Jason Collins and Brandon Armstrong went on to have non eventful careers. Had the rockets made the right picks in that draft or more valued picks such as keeping RJ drafting Randolph and Arenas instead of Armstrong and Collins the Rockets would have been much better. Looking it from then it was great they got an ultra talented PF who was touted as #1 pick but had major character issues. But now we realise how character really is important. We basically got nothing for three valued first round draft choises and totally got ripped off. But I believe that was the worst best thing that happened to the rockets. Had the rockets made all the right picks and kept them they would still never be at the championship status. With Steve Francis and RJ you have two class B all stars two that arn't at the elite level that cannot be counted on to carry the team to championship stardom. With Francis you have a selfish point guard who likes to shoot with RJ you have a player that relies on other playmakers to get him what he has. It was the worst best thing because the next year houston #1 pick and drafted a Class A All Star who can be relied on to carry the team to the next level. Had we not made such a bad trade we would have never been able to draft yao ming who will eventually lead us to a championship. We would have not been able to draft yao because those players would have contributed more and we would have gotten a higher pick meaning no Yao Ming and we would of thought that we had our Center of the Future in Jason Collins and that we could develop him and would have not made Yao such a target. Therefore I would not classify the move of 2001 to be the worst move that the Houston Rockets ever made since the 2000 season. I consider the drafting of Bostjan Nachbar to be the worst move towards 2000. Though you may think it may not have the damage of three first round picks and its jut one fifteenth pick it would have mattered a lot. Had the rockets taken another SF in the draft that they had worked out twice in Tayshaun Prince they would be further into their journey for the championship today by a mile. They would have still gotten Mcgrady and they wouldn't have drafted and traded away an sf this seaon and would have either taken a pg or pf which would nearly complete our championship team needs. We would have had C-Yao Pf Howard or 2006 Draft SF-Tayshaun who guards the shooting guards. SG- Mcgrady who guards the SFs PG Alston or the 2006 Draft pick with guys like Marcus Williams, Ranjon Rondo, Jordan Farmar to pick from and athletic rebounding shotblockers Cedric Simmons or Hilton Armstrong to pick from. Therefore we would only be one starter away from being on top. To Further state how this move was worst then the move of the draft of 2001 had we not done that move we would have not traded for mcgrady because RJ and Mcgrady both SG/Sf type players who commence around 10 million in contract and tayshaun would have been the better fit because he is not in that need of the ball because he focus a lot more on defence and just play on what his team and defence gives him and he would not have as big a contract as he is more of an unbelivable role player rather then a Class B all star. This would have really been the pick that set us back in Yao and Tracy's Prime.</div> Would you rather have Richard Jefferson as the small forward or Tayshaun Prince?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting JuLiO-R-:</div><div class="quote_post">It's easy to see that Jefferson is a better player than Griffin NOW, but there is just no way you would know that back in 2001. That year the Rockets had no inside scoring. They had Kelvin Cato, Kenny Thomas, Walt Williams, and an injured Maurice Taylor (missed 2002 season). They needed offense, and Freshman Eddie Griffin was averaging: 17.8 ppg 10.8 rpg 4.4 bpg Great numbers for a Freshman, his game can only get better right? That's what the Rockets were thinking when they drafted Griffin. You can't blame the Rockets for drafting him, and saying that passing up Jefferson was a really bad move makes no sense to me unless you can see the future. It's the NBA Draft, sometimes you get Superstarts and then sometimes you get Busts. Now you're right about not being able to predict how picking RJ would affect the team. If the Rockets went with RJ things could change a lot. Using "What Ifs" don't do a lot to back up what you're saying. Picking RJ means we may not have ever gotten Yao. If the Rockets don't get Yao, they don't trade for T-Mac. The Rockets traded for T-Mac to set up a "Shaq/Kobe" like duo. If the Rockets picked RJ this team would be a whole lot different. There's no way to prove that the Rockets would end up with Alston, T-Mac, Jefferson, Battier, Yao, Deke, and any other current player. Picking RJ changes everything. It changes the W/L record, trades, player signing, and draft position. There is just no way to find out what could have been if RJ was picked instead of Griffin. That's why I don't think picking Eddie Griffin was such a bad thing. Picking Eddie Griffin lead to Yao and T-Mac, and I can't complain about that. You just can't assume things. It's easy to disagree on picks when you've already seen the results. And you can't assume that things would be the same if the Rockets picked RJ over EG, or Prince over Nachbar.</div> That's why the Rockets should have gave Jefferson a chance instaed of just trading him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting JuLiO-R-:</div><div class="quote_post">Now you're right about not being able to predict how picking RJ would affect the team. If the Rockets went with RJ things could change a lot. Using "What Ifs" don't do a lot to back up what you're saying. Picking RJ changes everything. It changes the W/L record, trades, player signing, and draft position. There is just no way to find out what could have been if RJ was picked instead of Griffin. That's why I don't think picking Eddie Griffin was such a bad thing. Picking Eddie Griffin lead to Yao and T-Mac, and I can't complain about that. You just can't assume things.</div> Let me make something very clear. This particular debate topic is essentially useless without making assumptions. Think about it for a minute. If you're going to talk about a move that happened 5 years ago and defend whether or not it was the right one or the wrong one, the only way to do that is to make assumptions. For example, one might say... "If we would have done A instead of B, then X would have happened instead of Y". That's what we're doing here. Without assumptions, we get this... "If we would have done A instead of B, things would have been different but we don't know how they would have been different." That's pointless. That's not even a debate. Knowing this, I chose the most reasonable assumption I could, which is that we still would have been in the running for Yao if we had Richard Jefferson. It's not like RJ flew out of the gates as a rookie like LeBron or Carmelo. He had a 9/4/2/1stl/.5blk rookie campaign playing along side Jason Kidd. Very arguably worse than Eddie Griffin's 9/6/1/2blks. I'm not psychic but I feel pretty confident in saying that there's no way in hell RJ puts up better numbers playing along side Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley than with Jason Kidd. Another thing... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting JuLiO-R-:</div><div class="quote_post">Great numbers for a Freshman, his game can only get better right? That's what the Rockets were thinking when they drafted Griffin. You can't blame the Rockets for drafting him, and saying that passing up Jefferson was a really bad move makes no sense to me unless you can see the future. It's the NBA Draft, sometimes you get Superstarts and then sometimes you get Busts.</div> The debate topic says "worst move" not "worst decision". There's a fundamental difference there, in my opinion, and I think you're getting them confused. A move is a transaction, a business deal. It's the act itself. A decision is the cognitive aspect of that particular deal. It's the reasoning behind the "move". My point is that the Rockets may have very well been justified in their 2001 "decision", but that doesn't make the reality of the "move" any less horrible in 2006. I mean, can I really blame the Rockets for wanting to land a power forward that put up 18/11/4.4 blocks as a freshman in college and could shoot the 3? No I can't. Although judging by their college #'s, the 3 players they gave up looked pretty damn promising themselves. Then again, I'm not here to debate whether their decision was warranted or not. Hindsight is 20/20 and there's no denying that trading Richard Jefferson for Eddie Griffin was ultimately a horrible move, and that's not even taking the other two players into consideration.
It looks like all three of ya'll agree. But, that's only because you guys assume we would some how still have T-Mac and Yao. That Draft was 5 years ago, and a lot of things can change during that time. Picking Eddie instead of Richard looks bad now, but back in 2001 it was a great trade. At 19 years old Eddie Griffin was one of the top picks in 2001. He was a great rebounder, shot blocker, and 3pt shooter in College. And that's what the Rockets needed. Trading 3 players for Eddie Griffin in 2001 was a pretty good deal, because Griffin was supposed to a great player. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting vcwannabe15:</div><div class="quote_post">That's why the Rockets should have gave Jefferson a chance instaed of just trading him.</div><div class="quote_poster">Quoting Sniper:</div><div class="quote_post"> there's no denying that trading Richard Jefferson for Eddie Griffin was ultimately a horrible move, and that's not even taking the other two players into consideration.</div> At the time Eddie Griffin was a better prospect than Richard Jefferson. The Rockets had him as their #1 pick, but New Jersey picked him up. Because New Jersey knew they had a great prospect, they used that power to pick up 3 players for 1. The Rockets traded 3 of their picks for 1 great pick. A lot of people loved this trade. It looks like a bad trade now, but you gotta see it as if it was still 2001. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudy Tomjanovich:</div><div class="quote_post">"Usually, you have to go through a lot of pain to get a player like this, the main thing is we got someone special. There are benefits to having three picks, but how many times do you have a chance to get someone special." http://www.nba.com/draft2001/news/griffin_...nav=ArticleList</div> This was not a bad trade in 2001, it looks bad now because we know Eddie was a bust. But the question is what was the worst move since 2000. This trade was not a bad move at the time. Can you blame the Rockets for not being able to predict the future?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Sniper:</div><div class="quote_post">Let me make something very clear. This particular debate topic is essentially useless without making assumptions. Think about it for a minute. If you're going to talk about a move that happened 5 years ago and defend whether or not it was the right one or the wrong one, the only way to do that is to make assumptions.</div> I'm talking about this: <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Sniper:</div><div class="quote_post"> To go even further, let's plug RJ into the current lineup... Rafer Alston Tracy McGrady Richard Jefferson Shane Battier Yao Ming</div>Do you really think we would still have gotten all these players? Time goes by, the Rockets still sign Swift, the Rockets still draft Gay, and trade them 2 for Battier? It's just too unimaginable to me.
I feel if you don't think about the 2001 Draft in terms of value it worked out great for the rockets. Even though you lose an all star player in the class b all star area you gain by having a crappy record and getting the #1 pick why is that so good for the rockets? Right now in china everyone is buying just the rockets jersesys and boosting revenuse making Lindsay a bit thicker in the pockers and more able to invest on this team. Had they kept those three guys we would have had a better record because the team would have been much better all around and we would not have come close to having yao ming and the 10-20 spot in that draft is pretty thin. Why I think the #15 pick of Prince had we done it would not effect us getting Tracy Mcgrady is because. Prince is a role player. They wanted a dominant perimeter scorer not someone who can only shoot open jumpers and wait for the offence to come to him. Orlando would have still made that Mcgrady trade Dawson would have definetly still made that trade because he was looking for a dominant perimeter player to form the new Inside Outside dominant combo. vcwannabe15 you asked me if i would rather have prince or jefferson as the small forward spot. This is my answer in a team with Yao and Tracy Mcgrady a guy like Tayshaun Prince makes a lot more sense at the SF spot then another superstar who commands big money. Tayshaun would have given us that guy that could nail all his open shots defend the better sf/sg combo and we wouldn't have to worry about sg/sf/c this year in the draft we could have taken one of the point guards that has fallen so far and looked so good. We could have taken an athletic shotblocker who can rebound instead of adressing that sg/sf problem. So yes i would rather have a guy like Tayshaun Prince beside Tracy Mcgrady if thats what you are asking me. Also The Drafting of Tayshaun Prince would not have effected the way the rockets traded because he was not a key player in his rookie year none of the key players who we acquired matches what he does and effect what we need in any way other then the fact that we would not have needed to use this years draft pick on Shane Battier. Plus this years pick would have been lower because Prince would have been there to help yao so it makes further sense that we would be addressing our PG and PF needs instead of drafting and trading for someone that is virtually an older Prince. Another reason why i feel the 2001 trade was not that bad. Yes Jefferson is a star. He gives you the dunks and works great off of Jason Kidd. What is it that makes jefferson look so great and allow him to look like that star?? OH Yah Jason Kidd's playmaking ability that makes players look better because of easy chances. When Tracy Mcgrady was in Orlando did he have a PG like that doing that for him when he was scoring 30 again i don't think so. This is why i call Jefferson a class B All Star he makes a loss look good he makes a game look good but he ain't gonna lead you to a championship. Now With the new cap and all we could only afford Jefferson or Mcgrady especially if we ware going to keep Yao. So let me ask you Would you want Jefferson or would you want Mcgrady?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting JuLiO-R-:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm talking about this: Do you really think we would still have gotten all these players? Time goes by, the Rockets still sign Swift, the Rockets still draft Gay, and trade them 2 for Battier? It's just too unimaginable to me.</div> Like I said, I didn't want to make wild and baseless assumptions, so sort of as a default I treated events as if they transpired the same way they really did up to the present day. I'm well aware of the "Butterfly Effect", and know that one miniscule change here or there can completely alter a course of events, but that's exactly why I'm not getting into all that here. I could pretty much say anything I want but it wouldn't mean anything, and that's when the debate becomes a convoluted mess of claims and predictions. As I noted, assumptions are necessary for this debate, but I've tried to minimize them by making only one, which is that the Rockets end up with the same roster they currently have (plus RJ). What would have made more sense? Should I have just started making up transactions? Because I'm pretty sure I could work out several scenarios that put 5 All-Stars in our starting lineup.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tinyballer:</div><div class="quote_post">So let me ask you Would you want Jefferson or would you want Mcgrady?</div> Personally, I'll take both since we didn't need RJ to snag TMac... Why would you ask which you'd rather have, if the ability to acquire one is mutually exclusive to the ability to acquire the other? I don't think anyone is arguing that RJ is better than TMac (when healthy).
The thing is you cannot survive with RJ and T-Mac on a team with a center like Yao Ming taking the salary he is taking and you can't have two all star wings. If we had RJ we would not have had Yao and we wouldn't be able to trade for T-Mac because T-mac wanted to come to houston because of Yao Ming. THE point is YOU CANNOT TAKE BOTH since it is logic you can only have one or the other and to further prove my point. Had we had RJ and Collins and Armstrong We would have had a lot more complete of a team and the 2002 would not be nearly as bad as it was meaning no #1 pick. No Yao Ming means even if we were able to trade for T-Mac We would still be a team that is exciting to watch but not a contendor think what NJ is now. Let say you are right and we still get yao even if it is highly unlikely. The Cap would restrict us so that we would be paying the luxury tax and as we all know lindsay ain't exactly rich enough to pay it and probably not willing. Therefore Your plan would not work. Therefore i still must conclude that my move of selecting the 15th pick of Boki is the worst move because that is what really sets back the championship team we are about to have now. It would not have any butterfly effect because Tayshaun is like Boki an SF and both sucked in Rookie season and Tayshaun just exploded his sophmore year. There would not have been a butterfly effect with except for the fact that he would have prevented us from making the deal we made this draft day for another swingman we would have instead filled our PG need and our PF need. Therefore i must furthur conclude that i still believe that that pick was the worst move by the rockets since 2000 even if one is a lot worse interms of value and magnitude it helped the rockets in that we got the #1 pick of Yao the following season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tinyballer:</div><div class="quote_post">The thing is you cannot survive with RJ and T-Mac on a team with a center like Yao Ming taking the salary he is taking and you can't have two all star wings.</div> Why not? RJ isn't a prolific scorer who needs the ball. He's the perfect 3rd scorer type that everyone is clammoring for now. (Battier is a nice player, but not a 1-on-1 scoring threat...but that's another debate I guess). I discuss the salary issue further down in this post... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting tinyballer:</div><div class="quote_post">If we had RJ we would not have had Yao and we wouldn't be able to trade for T-Mac because T-mac wanted to come to houston because of Yao Ming. THE point is YOU CANNOT TAKE BOTH since it is logic you can only have one or the other.</div> I still don't get it. You say we couldn't have had Yao, yet I already showed that RJ's numbers were arguably WORSE than Eddie Griffin's numbers in their rookie seasons. It's pretty clear that neither of them were going to save us from a horrible season. Which leads me to your next claim... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting tinyballer:</div><div class="quote_post">Had we had RJ and Collins and Armstrong We would have had a lot more complete of a team and the 2002 would not be nearly as bad as it was meaning no #1 pick.</div> I guess you were counting on Jason Collins' 4/4 rookie average to save us from our fate as one of the worst teams in the league. Or maybe it was Brandon Armstrong's 2/.5 average. I don't think so. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting tinyballer:</div><div class="quote_post">Let say you are right and we still get yao even if it is highly unlikely. The Cap would restrict us so that we would be paying the luxury tax and as we all know lindsay ain't exactly rich enough to pay it and probably not willing. Therefore Your plan would not work.</div> Well, let's start by getting the owner's name right (it's Leslie). While we know that he's not generally a huge spender, he does put winning pretty high on his list of priorities and he's made that clear. With that said, you'd have to believe he'd be willing to pay the 3 guys (Yao, Tracy, RJ) who are still young and could potentially be perennial contenders. I definitely believe he'd find some way to loosen his pockets. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting tinyballer:</div><div class="quote_post">It would not have any butterfly effect because Tayshaun is like Boki an SF and both sucked in Rookie season and Tayshaun just exploded his sophmore year. There would not have been a butterfly effect with except for the fact that he would have prevented us from making the deal we made this draft day for another swingman we would have instead filled our PG need and our PF need.</div> When talking about the Butterfly Effect, everything makes a difference, no matter how small. That's the whole point. So to say that one draft night move would have had an effect (RJ) and another wouldn't (Boki) is a very weak argument.
Its not about whether lesly would pay the money or not its about the cap situation you have yao t-mac and jefferson and you cannot have anyoen else yao commence around 12 mil t-mac around 15 mil jef around 10 min thats around 37 mil right there on three players. How are you supposed to pay all those three players and continue to try and fill our other needs??? He is a good scorer yes but around yao and t-mac you need 5 more beyond solid role players not another star with 4 crappy role players which is what you are going to get with you cap situation. Furthermore jefferson is not the kind of player that you think you are getting. He would have been a bust had he been in our system. He is a nice locker room presense and has nice personality and is tall but he is making his living off of jason kidd.. Jason Kidd is finding him open looks and open dunks and playing a running game. He would die in a half court game. Had he been forced to play in a half court game you could be sure that his game becomes one of those 10-17 point players that commence 10 mil per year and become an expensive version of what we could have had in Tayshaun just because jefferson looks more explosive and as we already saw dunkers don't thrive in our system. The boki argument is a perfect argument in terms of butterfly effect him and tayshaun had exact same stats in rookie season and tayshaun started getting better sophmore season but continues to prove he is just a great role player not a star. Whats perfect about is you can project his butterfly affect his butterfly effect is that he would make us not need to spend our lotto pick on shane battier this year and that we can fill our other needs instead. He would be a perfect player beside mcgrady just for that fact and for the fact we wouldn't need to use this year's pick on an sg/sf player would just help us by the need. The year we drafted the three we were drafting for NJ we wern't drafting for what houston needs so had the rockets decided to keep those three picks they would of picked different people and if you saw who they were working out You would know they still wouldn't have picked RJ they would have picked other people including some people who became very notable players now. They had murphy in mind they had randolph they had haywood in mind for the 13 and 18 picks and looked at wallaec dalemburt and arenas for the last first round pick. If they had drafted the way they wanted to they would have played a lot better picked up a lot more wins and undoubtly missed the #1 pick. Missing the #1 pick would make sure that the rockets look like the GS warriors now instead of what they are a talented but not a championship team. Had we drafted the way we wanted to draft we would have put in a much better record and the bottom line is we would have had less holes in the post and a better record and definetly would not have taken yao because we would have drafted two posts and that wouldn't have gotten us mcgrady because the reason mcgrady was interested in being traded to rockets and pushed to trade to rockets was because he thought yao could become a dominant big man. Since Houston and Phoenix's offer for T-Mac were both pretty close.
