Welcome everyone to the second bi-weekly Bulls Debate. This week we will have the members ?Umair15? and ?Nakz? joined by "azn_iverson" and "michiganave17". This debate will begin once the first reply is submitted and will last approximately 48 hours. If anyone is interested in participating in this game the next time, it comes around please send me a private message. Here are some rules and other things to remember?. 1. Only the people participating should post in this thread after the debate is over there will be a thread for discussion and voting. 2. You can only have a debate if the people involved disagree so please try to take opposing views on the topic. 3. Keep it to clean no personally shots Now down to the question?.. If Jordan never came out of retirement how many more championships, if any would the Bulls have won? Who would have been the center piece? <font size=""1""> *Sorry about this being late I am moving so my schedule is shacky. I am not sure what my internet status will be this week. So if I don't close this in 48 hours you know why.</font>
Now that is a tough one. I think I'll have to do a lot of research on this one, my memory isn't too great. Shawn Kemp would have been our center piece and we would have no championships. If I remember correctly Pip had a lot of trouble dealing with being the man towards the middle of MJ's retirement and wanted out of the Bulls. A trade of Kemp for Pip was in the works, but it didn't fall through, forgot why. But I think it was because Jordan was coming back. So if that is the case, the trade would have gone through and we would have been stuck with Kemp as our franchise player. I don't think we would have won any with Kemp as our centerpiece. Sure the guy had huge potential, but everyone knows the story about Kemp. Even with a healthy Kemp, we wouldn't be anything but contenders at the most, if and only if he had a solid all-star partner. In Cleveland he posted good individual numbers, but he never made them contenders. In Seattle they were always a contendor with GP as well.
He's asking for this debate: How would the Bulls perform had not Michael Jordan come back form retirement in 1995. Would they have won more champions or not? If so, who would be their star player?
I get it. Now my debate starts. After Jordan left the Bulls in 1993, their star player became Scottie Pippen. Pippen had established himself as one of the top players in the league. But he could not lead the Bulls with his talents. Even though he recieved help from Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong (2 guys who made their first all-star game), they were still not powerful enough to lead Bulls to a championship. Maybe to 2nd round in playoffs with those 3's talents. But definetly not championship. Even though those 3 led Bulls to a 55 win season, it was not good enough to help them win a title. Like i said before, they were good enough to make it to second round. They were knocked out in 2nd round going to 7 games by Knicks. Right after that season when MJ returned they won 3 championships in a row, meaning that they need MJ to win the championship. Even though they were a good team without Jordan winning 55 games, since Jordan was missing, they couldn't win the championship, and lost in game 7 of 2nd round. OK say if the Bulls beat Knicks in 2nd round. Could the Houston Rockets who were led by MVP Hakeem Olajuwon and the other role players like Maxwell, Drexler, and Otis Thorpe. Heck, Knicks gave Houston Rockets a hard team forcing this series to 7 games. Knicks and Rockets were a great team. Who were too much for the Bulls. So i say the centerpiece would definetly be Pippen and the Bulls would not have won a championship if Jordan didnt come back.
Okay you retold history and you assumed the bulls would not have made any moves for a franchise player. However you don't remember that Pippen wasn't happy in Chicago. Remember he sat out the last 5secs of that game where Kukoc hit the game winner? Pippen was having A LOT of trouble dealing with the increased pressure of leading a team. He wasn't handling it at all. It also led to frustrations off the court. He got into alterations with his wife, divorced her and other incidents off the court. In addition lets not forget that Pippen was furious that the Bulls traded long time friend and teammate Horace Grant. That was pretty much the breaking point for Pippen. He didn't in on the bulls anymore. As I said a trade with Kemp and Pippen were in the works, but fell through because of Jordan's return and salary issues. Therefore if Jordan never came back, Pippen would have been shipped by the next season.
You are way off subject. We are talking about if Jordan never came back from his retirement, would the bulls have won a championship. We are not talking about possible trades or anything, we are only talking about the team we had at that time. So what I am saying is that the Bulls needed Jordan to fuel themselves to win the Finals. We are not talking about trades that could or would happen. Pippen would be the centerpiece. And NO, Bulls would'nt have won a championship if MJ didn't come back. Bulls needed Jordan in order to win their threepeat. Pippen led them to 55 wins and to the second round, but it wasn't enough to lead them to win the finals. They had a missing piece and that was Micheal Jordan.
Sorry I'm not way off subject. The topic is "If Jordan never came out of retirement how many more championships, if any would the Bulls have won? Who would have been the center piece?" I have answered how many championships, none. I have answered who would be the center piece, Kemp. How is a trade not relevant? To have a center piece you either have it on your team, or you trade for it. I said we would trade Pippen for Kemp. I don't know how that is off topic. I told you that Pippen would have been traded hence not be the centerpiece. All this occurs while Jordan plays baseball. So once again I don't know how it is not relevant. In addition it was also Rodman that was the missing piece, not just Jordan. But I don't think they would ahve gotten him if Jordan didn't come back. Rodman was wild and it only would work with Jordan coz of the respect Jordan commanded. This question is very open ended and his infinitely many possibilities, two of which have been argued by us both.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NaKz:</div><div class="quote_post">Sorry I'm not way off subject. The topic is "If Jordan never came out of retirement how many more championships, if any would the Bulls have won? Who would have been the center piece?" I have answered how many championships, none. I have answered who would be the center piece, Kemp. How is a trade not relevant? To have a center piece you either have it on your team, or you trade for it. I said we would trade Pippen for Kemp. I don't know how that is off topic. I told you that Pippen would have been traded hence not be the centerpiece. All this occurs while Jordan plays baseball. So once again I don't know how it is not relevant. In addition it was also Rodman that was the missing piece, not just Jordan. But I don't think they would ahve gotten him if Jordan didn't come back. Rodman was wild and it only would work with Jordan coz of the respect Jordan commanded. This question is very open ended and his infinitely many possibilities, two of which have been argued by us both.</div> You answered Kemp as the centerpiece when he never got traded? How can you assume or think he may have been traded. You can't think someone was going to be traded, and make them look like the centerpiece. If Jordan never came back, then Pippen would definetly be the center piece, no doubt. He was the leader of Bulls after Jordan meaning if Jordan left this was his team. Pippen would have been the centerpiece and Bulls would not have won a championship at all even though they won 55 games. And that threepeat Bulls won, they wouldn't have gotten that if MJ didnt come back. So Jordan was need on the team for a championship run, or otherwise Bulls would'nt have won a championship. BTW-- When is this gonna end? It has already been like 3-4 days.
Well equally how can you assume Pippen would not be traded? My points are just as valid as your points. By you saying Pippen will be the centerpiece you assume he doesnt get traded. You say if Jordan never came back Pippen would be the centerpiece for sure. But you neglect my rebuttal for this. He was unhappy in Chicago being the centerpiece. He wanted out. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this... If Jordan didn't come back, Pippen would have been traded because he was unhappy. Plain and simple. Pippen being unhappy in Chicago is a fact, not an assumption or speculation. It was a fact and it did happen, it is definate. So therefore it is not unreasonable for me to assume he gets traded. TMac wanted out of Orlando, so they traded him. So once again it's not unreasonalbe for me to assume Pippen would have been traded.
Would have been and could have been. You cant assume trade would have happened right now. Who ever was on the team in 94-95, you have to picka centerpiece from that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NaKz:</div><div class="quote_post">Well equally how can you assume Pippen would not be traded? My points are just as valid as your points. By you saying Pippen will be the centerpiece you assume he doesnt get traded. You say if Jordan never came back Pippen would be the centerpiece for sure. But you neglect my rebuttal for this. He was unhappy in Chicago being the centerpiece. He wanted out. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this... If Jordan didn't come back, Pippen would have been traded because he was unhappy. Plain and simple. Pippen being unhappy in Chicago is a fact, not an assumption or speculation. It was a fact and it did happen, it is definate. So therefore it is not unreasonable for me to assume he gets traded. TMac wanted out of Orlando, so they traded him. So once again it's not unreasonalbe for me to assume Pippen would have been traded.</div> and how can you assume pipped would've been traded? And by saying pipped will get traded, you are saying he won't be the centerpiece and kemp would. stop assuming. He wanted out, but he didnt get traded, so why are you saying kemp would've been traded, when he didnt get traded?
Thats kind of contradictory to the topic in the first place. If we use your logic, this topic doesnt exist because Jordan did come back. Therefore how can you assume Pippen would be the centrepiece? This topic is based on "ifs", so are my arguments and so are yours. My assumptions are just as valid as yours. Yes saying pippen would be the centrepiece is an assumption. I'm repeating myself again here. But I can't help it if you keep reiterating rebuttals that are hypocritical. On a side note, I hope BKS comes back soon and puts an end to this.
