Dirk is reaching his prime time and KG is in a downfall. If both were at their primetime it would be hard. But I would go over Dirk. Just because he can post, fade away, shoot three pointers and handle the ball. KG is great and fast and all but Dirk over all has more game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Pablo23:</div><div class="quote_post">Dirk is reaching his prime time and KG is in a downfall. If both were at their primetime it would be hard. But I would go over Dirk. Just because he can post, fade away, shoot three pointers and handle the ball. KG is great and fast and all but Dirk over all has more game.</div> that is total bs. First of all KG isnt in a downfall at all. His numbers are steady. Secondly, KG is better at everything besides shooting, and KG is still a GREAT shooter. Dirk can't play defense, rebound, or pass at all. KG is pretty much great at everything.
Hate to break this to ya TFP, but I think you're speaking out of bias. While KG may be a better rebounder and defender, Dirk is still pretty good at both. He took huge strides on defense last year under Avery Johnson, and was still solid in rebounding, grabbing 9 per game. By no means is he bad at defense anymore, cause if that was the case, Avery would be afraid to have him riding the bench occasionally because of it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">Hate to break this to ya TFP, but I think you're speaking out of bias. While KG may be a better rebounder and defender, Dirk is still pretty good at both. He took huge strides on defense last year under Avery Johnson, and was still solid in rebounding, grabbing 9 per game. By no means is he bad at defense anymore, cause if that was the case, Avery would be afraid to have him riding the bench occasionally because of it.</div> He has made huge strides and is still worse. that is all i said. How is that bias? Are you really going to argue with me that Dirk is a better defender/rebounder/passer than KG? Especially in their primes as Pablo23 suggested.
Actually, what you said is that Dirk CAN'T play defense, Dirk CAN'T rebound, etc. That's what you said, so maybe you should think of looking over your previous post. I'll say that KG is better at all of those categories, but to say that Dirk CAN'T do any of that is total bull, and that's exactly what you said. And in case you didn't realize it, here, I'll repost that comment for you beneath this. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Dirk can't play defense, rebound, or pass at all. KG is pretty much great at everything. </div>Also, one last thing, KG is pretty much great at everything, cause there's one thing he hasn't learned how to do yet that Dirk has. You know what that is? Win. KG has been in the league longer than Dirk and still, STILL has no Finals appearance to show for it. Dirk has been there and will be there again and probably win it all before it's all said and done, and he'll do it with the team he started with. The only way KG wins a title is if he gets out of Minny.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nickhoward7:</div><div class="quote_post">what about jermaine oneal he would be definetly in my top 5 he has been ripped off</div> Jermaine isn't a top five. He's fallen off because of his injuries..
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, one last thing, KG is pretty much great at everything, cause there's one thing he hasn't learned how to do yet that Dirk has. You know what that is? Win. KG has been in the league longer than Dirk and still, STILL has no Finals appearance to show for it. Dirk has been there and will be there again and probably win it all before it's all said and done, and he'll do it with the team he started with. The only way KG wins a title is if he gets out of Minny.</div> He went ther 1 time in his career and that was because his team was stacked. And I wouldn't say that he'll only win if he leaves Minnesota, if he gets more of a supporting cast around him (like he had that 1 year with Spree and Cassel) you will see how deep they go in the playoffs. Put Dirk 1-on-1 against KG and see what happens.
That's one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard. Lets what happens when they go one on one. Being able to beat someone one on one has nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with how good you are. If the other guy is off, they could beat them. By your standards, if, say, Kobe Bryant, were to lose to, oh, Brent Barry, in a game of one on one, that would make Brent Barry better than Kobe Bryant. Which, if you're a fan at all, you know is the complete opposite. The ability to beat someone one on one has absolutely nothing to do with how good you are. At all. It's one of the worst ways to guage how good someone is or isn't compared to someone else. As for KG going deep in the playoffs, the only way he's getting a better supporting cast is if he leaves the TWolves. I don't think he can win by himself in my opinion. I think he needs another superstar on his team to defer to, and unless he goes elsewhere he's never going to get that. Minnesota, with the team they have right now, gets no higher than a 6th seed, which means they're probably getting ousted by either Phoenix, Dallas, or San Antonio in the first round. KG is not getting any younger. He wants to win, and I think the only way that happens is if he leaves Minny. They're never going to get the pieces around him to win it all. Their best chance was blown back in '03 when they had Cassell and Spree.
I am also biased to KG but I have a lot of respect for Dirk and his game. KG has a better all around game in my opinion though it is hardly cut and dry. I agree that comparing two players simply on one-on-one is crap, though a players ability to beat someone one-on-one is one measure of how good a player is. However, it is also unfair to judge a players value simply on the success of his team. In every generation there has been top-tier players who never win the ring, its just a reality when there are thirty teams playing for one prize. There has been no evidence that KG has begun to decline because of his age. By the way, what the hell are you talking about phun when you say Dirk is more mentally tough. For all the crap KG gets about not being able to make it to the championship or that he isnt clutch, how come nobody talks about how the Dirk led Mavs botched a 2-0 lead in the finals. Thats some great mental toughness right there.
<div class="quote_poster">KG&Me Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">By the way, what the hell are you talking about phun when you say Dirk is more mentally tough. For all the crap KG gets about not being able to make it to the championship or that he isnt clutch, how come nobody talks about how the Dirk led Mavs botched a 2-0 lead in the finals. Thats some great mental toughness right there.</div> Anyone who has watched both teams in the playoffs knows that Dirk wants the ball in the 4th quarter, KG wants to pass. Plus each game looks like it takes a lot out of KG emotionally. KG in the postseason is like an emotional rollercoaster. His composure is not there. Dirk is stoic by comparison. KG has never even made it to the finals. As far as "botched' a 2-0 lead, I hate it when everytime a team loses, it is called CHOKING. Choking is very different from losing. Being up 2-0 and not winning the series is not choking. Being up 3-0 maybe. But if you watched that series, i attribute Miami winning more to Pat Riley's coaching than anyone on the Mavs, least of all Dirk, choking. It took 2 games for Riles to figure the Mavs out, and once he did they started having success. Sure this newfound success probably dented Dirk and the Mavs confidence a bit, but to suggest that KG or any other superstar PF would have done better is crazy.
KG is an emotional player, playoffs or not. Playing with emotion does not mean playing without composure, but I understand what you are saying. I did not say that Dallas choked in the finals, I said they botched it because they were in complete control going into game three but after the tough beat they let Miami walk all over them in game four and lost all momentum (I personally thought the refs handed the series to the Heat but its best not to start that argument again). And I was not implying that this was all on Dirk or that any other PF would have done better. I was pointing out that everytime Minny failed to win people put the loss squarly on KG and was wondering why the same standard isnt held for Dirk after he failed to lead his team to the title (especially if he is the better player).
<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Anyone who has watched both teams in the playoffs knows that Dirk wants the ball in the 4th quarter, KG wants to pass. Plus each game looks like it takes a lot out of KG emotionally. KG in the postseason is like an emotional rollercoaster. His composure is not there. Dirk is stoic by comparison. KG has never even made it to the finals. As far as "botched' a 2-0 lead, I hate it when everytime a team loses, it is called CHOKING. Choking is very different from losing. Being up 2-0 and not winning the series is not choking. Being up 3-0 maybe. But if you watched that series, i attribute Miami winning more to Pat Riley's coaching than anyone on the Mavs, least of all Dirk, choking. It took 2 games for Riles to figure the Mavs out, and once he did they started having success. Sure this newfound success probably dented Dirk and the Mavs confidence a bit, but to suggest that KG or any other superstar PF would have done better is crazy.</div>I hate to break this to you, but it was a chokejob. No if, and, or buts about it. They were up 2-0 and had a 13 point lead with 3min left. They should have gone up 3-0 and probably would have swept them. They choked in all sense of the word. And Dirk was awful when it came to crunch time in that series. He was never able to take over the game, much less the fourth quarter. The Mavs missed all sorts of shots, including Dirk choking at the line in one of the games with the game on the line as well. In my opinion, Dirk choked, and did so pretty hard in the process. They should have won the series, and despite what you may want to say, a lot of it could probably be attributed to him and his less than stellar NBA Finals. And in case you don't believe me about him choking at the line, here's a quote straight out of the NBA.com recap. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nowitzki easily got to the basket and was fouled. A clutch foul shooter throughout the postseason, he made the first but shockingly missed the second. Wade rebounded and split two free throws, and Nowitzki's lob attempt for Howard was broken up by Wade, still with spring in his step. </div>
<div class="quote_poster">Moo2K4 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">That's one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard. Lets what happens when they go one on one. Being able to beat someone one on one has nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with how good you are. If the other guy is off, they could beat them. By your standards, if, say, Kobe Bryant, were to lose to, oh, Brent Barry, in a game of one on one, that would make Brent Barry better than Kobe Bryant. Which, if you're a fan at all, you know is the complete opposite. The ability to beat someone one on one has absolutely nothing to do with how good you are. At all. It's one of the worst ways to guage how good someone is or isn't compared to someone else.</div> Please cousin, don't even trip like that. I meant from a skills standpoint. Of course anybody can get lucky ever once in a while, but have them play 4-5 games and see what happens. To use your example, Brent Barry wouldn't be able to beat Kobe in all those games. Yeah he could score and would probably take a game or two, but we all know Kobe'd come back and take it. And you totally missed the point I was trying to make, take someone with similar abilities, and with similar stats, put them one on one and see what happens. I never said the winner is better than his opponent.
<div class="quote_poster">cMac44111 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Please cousin, don't even trip like that. I meant from a skills standpoint. Of course anybody can get lucky ever once in a while, but have them play 4-5 games and see what happens. To use your example, Brent Barry wouldn't be able to beat Kobe in all those games. Yeah he could score and would probably take a game or two, but we all know Kobe'd come back and take it. And you totally missed the point I was trying to make, take someone with similar abilities, and with similar stats, put them one on one and see what happens. I never said the winner is better than his opponent.</div> Marbury would kick Nash's ass in 1-1 but I'd still pick Nash over Marbury every day..
<div class="quote_poster">cMac44111 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Please cousin, don't even trip like that. I meant from a skills standpoint. Of course anybody can get lucky ever once in a while, but have them play 4-5 games and see what happens. To use your example, Brent Barry wouldn't be able to beat Kobe in all those games. Yeah he could score and would probably take a game or two, but we all know Kobe'd come back and take it. And you totally missed the point I was trying to make, take someone with similar abilities, and with similar stats, put them one on one and see what happens. I never said the winner is better than his opponent.</div>It doesn't matter how similar someone's abilities are, it's still pointless to have them play one on one. Regardless of who wins, it doesn't show who's better. Would you like to know why? Even if you don't, I'm telling you. One on one means that, one player vs another player. The only thing you would do in one on one is pretty much a shooting contest. One player shoots, another, etc., etc. It only shows how good a person is at breaking down a SINGLE defender. It doesn't show how good you are when someone is double teaming you. It doesn't show your decision making ability when you're in the lane. It doesn't show how good of a passer you are. It doesn't show how good of a team defender you are. It doesn't showcase your ability to get others involved when you're off. It shows nothing but your ability to break down a defender and either make a layup/dunk or hit a jump shot, be it contended or wide open. It shows somewhat of what kind of defender you are but not really. A good defensive player does more than play solid defense on his own man, he knows when to come down for the double team, come in from the weak side and help, etc. So, to say the least, a game of one on one shows absolutely nothing about the player.
sorry, im too lazy to read all of this, but moo, when i said can't, i meant compared to KG. And he still isnt even above average compared to the rest of the pf's.
What do you want of him? 11-13 rpg? I'm just curious. 10rpg is pretty damn respectable, especially when he has Damp and Diop cleaning the boards in front of him, along with Howard getting his fair share.
<div class="quote_poster">Moo2K4 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What do you want of him? 11-13 rpg? I'm just curious. 10rpg is pretty damn respectable, especially when he has Damp and Diop cleaning the boards in front of him, along with Howard getting his fair share.</div> since when is 9.0 rpg 10? 9 isnt bad, but it anything special. I want him to be at 10 rpg before he is considered as good as TD and KG. Along with some defense and passing. On a side note, his rebounding has actually been declining. He was at 9.9 two years in a row, then two years later got 9.7. That doesnt look like a good sign for a guy "entering his prime." And he is struggling to be at 3 assists per game despite being a perimeter player. His defense is pretty poor imo. I havent seen him stop much of anobody ever. For all of these reasons, it bugs me soooooooo much when people get obsessed with guys that can only score. Much like Gilbert Arenas.
Ok, for rebounding, apparently you neglect that Diop and Dampier are on that team, each pulling down a ton of boards. They're the ones clogging the paint and getting the boards so Dirk doesn't have to. Next, you said it yourself, he's a perimeter player. How many guys out on the perimeter do you see getting 9rpg? Not too many. And also, his man to man defense may not be the best in the world, but he's still vastly improved. His team defense is starting to get a lot better as well. Remember, just cause he doesn't lead the league in blocks or steals, that doesn't mean he's a bad defender. On another rebounding note here, please, if you will, explain to me, outside of KG, who the hell grabs rebounds out in Minny? No one last I knew. Dirk has people that can actually rebound on his team, whereas KG has to do it all himself.
