<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Carter has always been an amazing player, he did'nt need kidd to become that. kidd needed him so people would still think he was an elite point gaurd.</div> Here is a quote by Vince <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> “J. Kidd makes life a lot easier,” says Carter. “That’s a luxury I have definitely gotten used to, and he has been a big part of my success.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Carter visited his old high school coach this off-season. Shortly after leaving, Coach Brinkerhoff said the Nets captain had made a big impression on Carter. “He refers to J. Kidd all the time. He’s ‘J. Kidd this and J. Kidd that’ all day. Playing with Jason is a motivator to Vince. He likes it that way.”</div> Source If that's not saying something,then I don't know what is.
This doesnt prove that kidd resurected his career at all. Ya kidd passes the ball to vince alot, but that doesnt mean that he "ressurected" carters career. Its one of the great points about playing with someone who isnt a good scorer: they pass the ball alot. Im pretty sure Carter doesnt need anyone to be a great player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Carter has always been an amazing player, he did'nt need kidd to become that. kidd needed him so people would still think he was an elite point gaurd.</div> First of all, do you admit this statement is wrong? I'm pretty sure Carter would disagree with you as well. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This doesnt prove that kidd resurected his career at all. Ya kidd passes the ball to vince alot, but that doesnt mean that he "ressurected" carters career. Its one of the great points about playing with someone who isnt a good scorer: they pass the ball alot. Im pretty sure Carter doesnt need anyone to be a great player.</div> Kidd passes the ball a lot because that's his job. He isn't supposed to score, but help his teammates score. That's what 'pure' point guards do. I agree that Carter is a great player but Kidd makes him better and much more successful. Even Carter admits this.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd DID NOT ressurect carters career. dont even try saying that he did. Carter was just unhappy in toronto and did'nt play like he meant it. He showed his frustration with the raptors franchise through his play. When he got traded it made him happy again so he played like he meant it again. Carter has always been an amazing player, he did'nt need kidd to become that. kidd needed him so people would still think he was an elite point gaurd.</div> Wow....just....WOW.....Are you serious? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kidd:</div><div class="quote_post">KG is a well rounded player but he is a loser just like Marbury. I'm not trying to diss him but he has never won anything. Great player but can't seem to carry his team.</div> This is offtopic but no way can you be serious. KG has been surrounded by mediocre to terrible talent ever since Spree and Cassell left. It's like saying Kobe is a loser because he couldn't carry his team during the 04-05 season when we missed the playoffs. A great player is just that, a great player. Doesn't mean they can do anything. More ontopic: I think at this moment in time, Nash is better than Kidd. Overall however, Kidd is better than Nash and all those listed.
lol people are going crazy over Chris Paul...he is one overrated player. You have to realize that David West just peaked last year and caused them to win some games. Yes Paul is one of the top 5 PGs NOW, but better than Kidd is saying alot. the definition of a point gaurd is to bring the ball up and create for the rest of his teammates. Iverson and Arenas don't do that better than kidd. Nash is the only one that does it better than kidd right now, but career wise Kidd blows them all away. Kidd is third best PG of all time to me after Magic Johnson and John Stockton.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting intrepid1983:</div><div class="quote_post">Stop over-rating Kidd. People love to overrate him for things he did in the past. Nash is better than Kidd and Billups i'm not so sure. Nash is for sure a hell of a better player than Kidd. You're talking about supporting casts? Jordan had Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, Longley. If Nash had Martin, Vanhorn and Jefferson, they would still dominate. When you say Nash has Amare, look how far nash brought them even when Amare was injured this past season. Barbosa was considered lost potential until he was with Nash, and bell was always a side player. Kidd has always been surrounded by good people. The only thing he can do now is pass the ball to Carter, which is pretty much what everyone does. Carter can bring a team to the playoffs without Kidd. Kidd is just riding on the Carter bandwagon. Without Carter there, the Nets became near the last place in the Eastern division after Kenyon left. Says a lot about Kidd at his current state.</div> Kidd is riding Carter's bandwagon?! Now there's a comeback. Kidd doesn't need to jump in anyone's bandwagon. Kidd has brought out the the best in his teammates. He makes players around him better. That's what great players do. As good as Carter may be, he has benefited a lot from Kidd. The Nets lost a step because of injuries to Kidd and Jefferson at the start of last season and even prior to last year. And if Nash really is the better player, how come the Suns hasn't won big? He has the better team than what Kidd had when he led the Nets to back-to-back East titles.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is offtopic but no way can you be serious. KG has been surrounded by mediocre to terrible talent ever since Spree and Cassell left.</div> Hasn't it been only two season since they left? I'm not talking about the past two season only, but his whole career. I mean he get's constantly knocked out in the first round. Even when he had Spree and Cassell he didn't make it to the Finals. Since he is the team leader I put the blame on him, but I might be wrong and the whole problem is that the management isn't surrounding him with good players. I might have taken it too far by calling him a loser, but he isn't exactly a big winner either.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">This doesnt prove that kidd resurected his career at all. Ya kidd passes the ball to vince alot, but that doesnt mean that he "ressurected" carters career. Its one of the great points about playing with someone who isnt a good scorer: they pass the ball alot. Im pretty sure Carter doesnt need anyone to be a great player.</div> Kidd chooses not to be a scorer. Why?! Because he is a POI N T GUARD! But when needed, Kidd has scored, specially during clutch situations. In their first title run, Kidd led the Nets in scoring in all of the playoff series.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kidd:</div><div class="quote_post">Hasn't it been only two season since they left? I'm not talking about the past two season only, but his whole career. I mean he get's constantly knocked out in the first round. Even when he had Spree and Cassell he didn't make it to the Finals. Since he is the team leader I put the blame on him, but I might be wrong and the whole problem is that the management isn't surrounding him with good players. I might have taken it too far by calling him a loser, but he isn't exactly a big winner either.</div> They made it to the Western Coference Finals......Either way it was management surrounding him with mediocre to terrible talent. Ask any T'Wolves fan or hell just look at their history.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TmacGarnett:</div><div class="quote_post">lol people are going crazy over Chris Paul...he is one overrated player. You have to realize that David West just peaked last year and caused them to win some games. Yes Paul is one of the top 5 PGs NOW, but better than Kidd is saying alot. the definition of a point gaurd is to bring the ball up and create for the rest of his teammates. Iverson and Arenas don't do that better than kidd. Nash is the only one that does it better than kidd right now, but career wise Kidd blows them all away. Kidd is third best PG of all time to me after Magic Johnson and John Stockton.</div> Amen to that! Kidd is one of the rare players (specially now) who places the team first rather than his personal stats. A lot of players now are all about stats, especially how many points they had. It's one of the reasons why the U.S. has not won recently in international competition. Everyone is out for number 1, and the team second. Kidd is the type of player who wouldn't mind a 6pt., 8 reb., 12asst. game for a win, rather than scoring 30 and lose.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">when i think of GREAT players, Kidd just isnt one of the ones that comes to mind.</div> Yeah... Because your idea of a "GREAT PLAYER" is someone who scores a lot... And doesn't "WIN" a lot!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AMS_ice:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah... Because your idea of a "GREAT PLAYER" is someone who scores a lot... And doesn't "WIN" a lot!</div> Exactly. He thinks scoring 25-30 points a game makes somone a great player. You have to do more than that.
Why are point gaurds not "supposed" to score? Being in a postition where they are basically controlling the entire offense, i think it should be one of the main jobs of a point gaurd to score. Maby not big scoring but at least efficiantly, and kidd does not do that. And yes, i am totally serious that kidd DID NOT ressurect carters career. Carter played better because he felt like he was in a better situation with a better franchise. If carter was playing for any other team where he was happy, he would be doing just as well. Carter does get alot of passes from kidd but he would on any other team. He played bad for the raptors because he was coming back from injury, and he was not happy with the current state of the team. that, and the fact that he wanted a trade, made him not play as hard as he normally would. and i think that also might have something to do with some people labeling him as an underacheiver.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly. He thinks scoring 25-30 points a game makes somone a great player. You have to do more than that. </div> can anyone here even tell me a player that averages 25-30 that isnt a great player?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">Why are point gaurds not "supposed" to score? Being in a postition where they are basically controlling the entire offense, i think it should be one of the main jobs of a point gaurd to score. Maby not big scoring but at least efficiantly, and kidd does not do that. </div> What?! Throughout his career, Kidd has averaged around 15ppg. What the F@#!! are you talking about?!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">can anyone here even tell me a player that averages 25-30 that isnt a great player?</div> Scoring a lot isn't a definition of a GREAT PLAYER.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">And yes, i am totally serious that kidd DID NOT ressurect carters career. Carter played better because he felt like he was in a better situation with a better franchise. If carter was playing for any other team where he was happy, he would be doing just as well. Carter does get alot of passes from kidd but he would on any other team. He played bad for the raptors because he was coming back from injury, and he was not happy with the current state of the team. that, and the fact that he wanted a trade, made him not play as hard as he normally would. and i think that also might have something to do with some people labeling him as an underacheiver.</div> Yes... Carter is in a better situation. He has Jason Kidd.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">people that i would rather have on my team than jason kidd...1-25 (not really in any specific order) : 1. Shaq 2. Kobe 3. AI 4. Lebron 5. Yao Ming 6. Dwayne Wayde 7. Tracy McGrady 8. Kevin Garnett 9. Chris Bosh 10. Gilbert Arenas 11. Paul Pierce 12. Dirk Nowitzki 13. Elton Brand 14. Ray Allen 15. Shawn Marion 16. Steve Nash 17. Barron Davis 18. Chris Paul 19. Dwite Howard 20. Amare Staudimire 21. Tim Duncan 22. Carmelo Anthony 23. Vince Carter 24. Andre Kiralinko 25. Ron Artest some of these could be interchangable with players that are not on the list, but this was just off the top of my head. I dont think that this list is totally unreasonable either. IMO kidd is only arguably as good as some of these players. Maybe a better "pure point gaurd" but not better overall player.</div> You horrible miss-spelled "Dwight" and "Dwyane", Baron Davis is even more injured than the so called "injured" Jason Kidd, and Vince Carter himself said that Jason is better than him. Ron Artest is MVP-calibur, but anyone that says he would take him over Jason Kidd is asking for a guy that wants to play 30% of the season. Andrei Kirilenko, Chris Paul, Chris Bosh, hasn't brought his team to the playoffs. Carmelo, T-Mac, Yao haven't gotten out of the first round. Kobe hasn't taken his team out of the first either. Abeit Chris Paul and Kobe who have only really had one to two seasons of trying (and I would take Kobe over Kidd anway), I don't see any legitamate claim saying they're better than Kidd. I could also argue Arenas, Ray Allen, Shawn Marion, and possibly Pierce if I really wanted to. Arenas has not shown me anything that Stephon marbury and Steve Francis hasn't done, except get out of the first round--though to Marbury and Francis' credit, they had to do it in a tougher west in their primes. Marion isn't the first nor second best player on his team. Ray Allen isn't known as a winner. Or hasn't been MVP calibur ever, even though he has the talent to be even better than any SG in the league today. Pierce, AI, it's a toss up I suppose. Kidd has had the better career than Paul, but AI has won MVP while Kidd has gone to the finals twice to AI's one and was considered by many to be robbed of a MVP. Personally as I look at your list, it looks more like a fantasy draft list rather than actual player rankings. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Stop over-rating Kidd. People love to overrate him for things he did in the past. Nash is better than Kidd and Billups i'm not so sure. Nash is for sure a hell of a better player than Kidd. You're talking about supporting casts? Jordan had Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, Longley. If Nash had Martin, Vanhorn and Jefferson, they would still dominate. When you say Nash has Amare, look how far nash brought them even when Amare was injured this past season. Barbosa was considered lost potential until he was with Nash, and bell was always a side player. Kidd has always been surrounded by good people. The only thing he can do now is pass the ball to Carter, which is pretty much what everyone does. Carter can bring a team to the playoffs without Kidd. Kidd is just riding on the Carter bandwagon. Without Carter there, the Nets became near the last place in the Eastern division after Kenyon left. Says a lot about Kidd at his current state.</div> #1, if the Nets had swapped Stephon Marbury for Nash instead of Kidd, you honestly are going to tell me Nash would've led the Nets to beat Shaq and Kobe in '02? Give me a break. #2 If you haven't forgotten, Shawn Marion was considered to be the rawest player coming out of UNLV. Who was the one that started his stardom much like Jefferson? If anything, Nash owes Kidd for perfecting Marions game #3 Carter himself has said that the Nets don't win if Kidd is not playing well. More so than Carter having a good game. Moreover, Carter has gone as far to say that Kidd is the only reason he can play so well unlike he did the last years in Toronto. If that isn't Nash-like, if not better, then you don't like Kidd and just trying to justify that with bs claims. #4 Kidd can only have Krstic and Jefferson and still make the playoffs. It really isn't that hard out in the Atlantic. 39 wins and you'll be in the top of the division. #5 The whole Kidd is surrounded by good people is crap. You're making it as if Nash is surrounded by trash. If he had players like Nick Van Exel in his prime as his BACK UP during our Finals run, it would've been over. Or how about Dirk and a prime Finley? Or how about an absolute manchild in Amare. Amare is way better than Kenyon and I'm as big as a Kenyon fan you'll find on God's green Earth. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd DID NOT ressurect carters career. dont even try saying that he did. Carter was just unhappy in toronto and did'nt play like he meant it. He showed his frustration with the raptors franchise through his play. When he got traded it made him happy again so he played like he meant it again. Carter has always been an amazing player, he did'nt need kidd to become that. kidd needed him so people would still think he was an elite point gaurd.</div> Cause your word means more than Carter's own? Don't try to like you're uncovering something. Kidd can make me score out there. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This doesnt prove that kidd resurected his career at all. Ya kidd passes the ball to vince alot, but that doesnt mean that he "ressurected" carters career. Its one of the great points about playing with someone who isnt a good scorer: they pass the ball alot. Im pretty sure Carter doesnt need anyone to be a great player.</div> Kidd if he wanted can score 18 ppg. He doesn't have to be effective. See '03. Also, ain't like Carter doesn't get any help from Kidd.
I'm not joining the whole Kidd debacle, but players always give their teammates props when they like them. Realistically, Carter did not need Kidd to do good at all, he didn't become a bad player as a Raptor in 04-05 lol, he was playing 30 MPG and not having the offense focused around him (Sam Mitchell said he wanted to spread the ball around, then last season he suddenly decided to actually have focus players, odd). Their's a difference between that and him not being capable of putting up big numbers. It was actually him not wanting to be there, him playing 30 MPG, and not being allowed to get in the flow of the game (had weird on and off patters) and him and a Sam Mitchell thing. People always said Kidd "made Kenyon Martin good", yet if we look at Kmart's numbers from New Jersey to Denver, the only difference is he's more injured in Denver, and that's not something Kidd controls. Kmart's PER 40 min numbers the past few seasons: <font color=""navy"">02-03 (NJN):</font><font color=""red"">19.5 PPG</font>, 9.7 RPG, 2.8 APG, 2.9 TPG, <font color=""Red"">16.5 FGA/G</font>, 47% FG, .511 TS% <font color=""navy"">03-04 (NJN):</font>19.3 PPG, <font color=""red"">11.0 RPG</font>, 2.8 APG, 3.0 TPG, 16.0 FGA/G, 48.8% FG, .528 TS% <font color=""navy"">04-05 (Den):</font> 19.1 PPG, 9.0 RPG, <font color=""red"">3.0 APG</font>, 2.6 TPG, 16.0 FGA/G, 49% FG, .521 TS% <font color=""Navy"">05-06 (Den):</font> 18.6 PPG, 9.1 RPG, 2.0 APG, <font color=""red"">1.9 TPG</font>, 15.5 FGA/G, <font color=""red"">49.5% FG</font>, <font color=""red"">.533 TS%</font> His most efficient scoring season was actually last year in Denver. Having Marcus Camby as opposed to the bad frontcourt rebounders he had in NJ decreased his rebounding (not like Kidd made him rebound anyways). The PPG was in the same range with it going slightly higher when he had 0.5 - 1 more FGA/G in 02-03. He had his best APG season in Denver by a slight margin, his FG% went up, and his turnovers went down. The PPG stayed in the same range, the difference from 03-04 to 04-05 was FT% and the few three's he made. Players don't "get good" because of other guys, it's just not realistic, but players can get more efficient or play better because of other guys. That wasn't the case with Kmart though, he was just more highly touted as a Net because the East was weak and they were succeful, and also because the lack of talent at F before, especially in comparison to the West allowed him to make the All-Star game. If I did want to join it though, Kidd is definately better than #7, but age will have to start catching up to him at some point in time. Also I agree about the scoring, unless we're being biased, Kidd has never been a "good" scorer. Yea he can "put up" 18 points a game if he wants right now, but it will hurt the team. He's never been consistent or efficient enough as a scorer, and his shot is always been a hit or miss. If he's hot, it's a good day, if not, he'll struggle. In his younger days, his speed allowed him to overcome this a little, but right now, he's mainly a catch and shoot player on offense feeding off the same guys (VC and RJ) who he get's easy baskets for. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">#2 If you haven't forgotten, Shawn Marion was considered to be the rawest player coming out of UNLV. Who was the one that started his stardom much like Jefferson? If anything, Nash owes Kidd for perfecting Marions game</div> Just one more thing, this is not true. Marion was compared to Scottie Pippen with a weaker jumpshot by a lot of people. Some thought he was actually a capable 1st option at SF/SG, he was expected to produce right away, and was praised for his athleticism, finishing, and defensive abilities. He wasn't really considered raw outside of needing to improve his jumper, which he did, and which wasn't even considered bad. He was hurt by a knee injury his first season, and the team actually hurt a lot when he got injured.
