<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">OAKLAND - New coach Don Nelson has his work cut out for him in reshaping the Warriors. Call it Extreme Makeover: Warriors Edition, and Nelson is Ty Pennington. He has to take relatively the same roster that won 34 games last year and mold it into a playoff team. The work begins Tuesday when training camp opens at the Warriors practice facility in downtown Oakland. "I have an idea of what I think is going to happen from what I've seen," Nelson said in a sit-down with Bay Area media on Thursday, adding, "the plan I have is flexible. If it's not looking good, I'm going to junk it real quick and try something else. I'm going to try to max the team out that I have, get them to play the best they can play." This year's camp is intriguing because there are several questions -- the biggest being whose role will change, can they perform their new duties and will they embrace the alterations. Nelson suggested this year's training camp would include a lot of acclimating and skill building/enhancing. The transition will be easier for some players. Guard Jason Richardson could end up starting at small forward. Power forward Troy Murphy figures to spend most of his time at center, where power forward Ike Diogu will spend some time as well, according to Nelson. But they won't be called upon to do much more or different than they've done in the past. The same is true for guard Monta Ellis, backup center Andris Biedrins and recently signed guard Dajuan Wagner. But there are some players who are in for drastic changes and need to prove they can provide what Nelson needs. Here are the players with the most to prove and facing the biggest amendments. PG Baron Davis: Davis will be asked to do something he hasn't done before -- play the cerebral game. In Nelson's system, Davis' mental game will be as vital as his physical skill. Denying the urge to pull-up for a random 3-pointer, knowing when to pass the ball up the court and when to push it himself, understanding when and how to get his teammates the ball, setting the tone on the defensive end, figuring out when to take over and when to defer -- these are all areas Davis will need to improve to effectively run Nelson's system. "I'd like him to make his decisions quicker," Nelson said. "If you have a fast-moving team, the last thing you want is (to) have the ball stop." Even more, Davis will have to play some shooting guard, a fairly dramatic change for such a ball-dominating point guard. In his stint with the Warriors to date, he's had the lion's share of the creating and playmaking on his plate. Now, Davis will have to show he can be effective without the ball in his hands -- setting screens, cutting effectively and spotting up. But, first and foremost, Nelson wants Davis to show he's healthy and fit. "I like all my guys as light as possible," Nelson said. "He's no exception. I think it would help, if he's having injury problems, to be lighter. I think that would be a natural. Lighter than his lowest weight would be good for me." SF Mike Dunleavy: Nelson has big plans for Dunleavy, plans that include shifting him from small to power forward, where he can better present matchup problems. In order to manifest Nelson's vision, Dunleavy's contributions will have to be consistently multi-faceted. Nelson will be looking for Dunleavy to lead the break more, rebound better, create for his teammates frequently and knock down the occasional outside shot to keep the defense honest. "If you're going to judge Mike Dunleavy on how many balls he makes, that's not his strength," Nelson said. "I think he's just an all-around guy. He's going to rebound, he's going to get assists, he's going to score some. He's going to do a lot of really good things."</div> Source Dunleavy at PF, what you guys think that adjustment?
I hated Dun at PF when Monty was here and would probably hate it with any other coach; but if there's 1 guy who can pull it off it's Nellie. Even though I prefer pound it inside, fundamental basketball, it will be fun to watch Murph and Dun pull the other teams big's outside at let our best post players, Baron and J-Rich, have the inside to themselves. I wonder if other teams would counter by playing a lot of zone against us-that's what I would do if I were the opposing coach.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ryanfish:</div><div class="quote_post">I hated Dun at PF when Monty was here and would probably hate it with any other coach; but if there's 1 guy who can pull it off it's Nellie. Even though I prefer pound it inside, fundamental basketball, it will be fun to watch Murph and Dun pull the other teams big's outside at let our best post players, Baron and J-Rich, have the inside to themselves. I wonder if other teams would counter by playing a lot of zone against us-that's what I would do if I were the opposing coach.</div> Great point, it really puts the onus on Duns and Murphy to hit their outside shots. Teams are going to gamble with the Warriors bigmen taking low percentage 3's, by clogging the paint and limiting Baron and JRich from driving the lanes. Also, with Duns starting at PF, what's Diogu's role going to be on this team?
I dont think teams will be able to zone us up. The Warriors will be playing an uptempo game making it extremely hard for a team to fall back into a zone. With Dun and Murph at the 4 and 5, they should be able to force the team out of a zone defense pretty quickly.
You know, Nellie has played guys like Najera and Antoine Walker at PF and sometimes even center. He's played Danny Fortson at center. I think Murphy could be out eventually in favor of Ike. Maybe? Here is my reasoning. Nellie probably wants a guy who is gritty and doesn't need to score to be effective. Guys like Popeye Jones, Fortson, Najera, all do battle in the paint and hustle their asses off. Murphy or Dun don't really do that kind of hustle the way those guys do. I'm talking hard-nosed battling in the paint both offensively and defensively. Murph is going to be too far away from the paint, camping the arc, to battle for short range misses and get the putback. And defensively, Ike is still better than Murphy IMO. At least the guy can block shots some. Another reason. Court sense. Both Dun and Ike can operate from the high post much like our guards can do. This lineup also gives us three power players who can utilize post up and spin moves and kick out from the low post or take guys off the dribble on isolations. So if Nelly wants to go mostly all offense, but at least challenge the other team defensively to intiate those fastbreaks, he'll go: C: Ike (high post/low post passing, college 3 range, footwork) PF: Dunleavy (midrange shot, drive and dish, high post passing) SF: Jason Richardson (all around scorer) SG: Monta Ellis/Dajuan Wagner (dribble penetration) PG: Baron Davis (dribble penetration) I question our guard's ability to consistently nail the outside shot and hit free throws (Even Monta Ellis doesn't seem that good), but we'll get plenty of quickness and lots of glue in-between scoring. The problem with guys like Murphy is that they are not creative and the ball tends to stop right at them. Jamison was the same as well. If we got lots of threats that can pass, the defense will start moving and they can't afford to play zone because guys will attack the zone. I just hope our shooting from wide open and on the pullup jumper is better than average.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudeezy:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont think teams will be able to zone us up. The Warriors will be playing an uptempo game making it extremely hard for a team to fall back into a zone. With Dun and Murph at the 4 and 5, they should be able to force the team out of a zone defense pretty quickly.</div> It will depend on the Warriors defense and rebounding then. They have to prevent other teams from scoring in the paint, otherwise teams will set the defense while the Warriors inbound the ball.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">It will depend on the Warriors defense and rebounding then. They have to prevent other teams from scoring in the paint, otherwise teams will set the defense while the Warriors inbound the ball.</div> That's what I think as well. We saw it last season when we could not defend the paint to save our lives and thus, we couldn't push because there was no transition play to be made unless we could inbound the ball as fast as we can rebound and get the outlet pass out.
I don't believe Dunleavy at PF will last, because we tried that last year as well. In offense, Dunleavy probably looked best at PF. But, in defense, Dunleavy simply couldn't pretend to defend against PFs. At least guys like Najera or Walker can pretend to d, but Dunleavy is too weak to do so. If there is any chance of Dunleavy-Murphy at center and PF line up, I think Dunleavy will guard center like how Mullin used to mask Mullin...
Maybe Dunleavy won't be worth it if he's too much of liability defensively and he's nothing like a great shooter that we expect to bomb 46%-51% shooting and 85-90% at the foul line consistently each night. If he doesn't get to touch the ball much and the guy shoots below 40% on most nights only to even it out with perfect shooting once every week... it's just not worth it. We saw how stats could be misleading during those years where he shot above 44% and pretty well from 3-point land. If we don't factor in the inconsistency... from a stats perspective, he's a pretty decent starter. But watching the guy, he just chokes way tooo often. It's been three years and all of us have been disappointed in a lot of ways... This is Dun's last chance, maybe.
There's a big difference between Dun at PF last year and this season. Monty put him at 4 and asked him to play like a traditional PF. He was physically overmatched. It could have caused more mismatches but Monty didn't really exploit them, he tried to post Dun up and wanted him to play 1-on-1 defensively. I think that by letting Dunleavy play point he will be able to blow past most 4s causing the other team to switch to someone quicker. This will help his defense as he won't be getting pushed around as much. Also, nelson believes in more team D than just man. I don't think he really cares if Dunleavy or Murphy can play their man straight up. If Dunleavy really can shoot the ball this year and be the distributor that he was supposed to be then we may just score more with these mismatches than we are giving up.
How could we push the ball? When Baron was out you had a point guard, ok not a point guard, an imposter of a point guard, who walked the ball up court. I can remember times Fisher refused to inbound the ball making Murphy or whomever go get the ball while as usual Fisher stood with his hands on his hips. I want the inbounds to move upcourt not have my point guard running back for a hand off inbounds pass so he can walk it up. ANd if he actually pushed the ball we witnessed the worst run fast break in history. Keep in mind Fisher played a lot of minutes that killed us last season. EVeryone seems to blame Baron, but it was Fisher that killed us the season before and proved to be just as inept last season.
I don't know, it sounds like some of you are expecting the Warriors to magically improve their outside shooting % this year. I think that's a dangerous assumption. Also, I just don't like Ike at C. It didn't work last year and I don't think it's going to work under Nellie's system either. Once again, I fear Ike is going to be put in a position to fail and find himself shut out under Nellie. Watching Ike sit on the bench while Dunleavy takes his spot at PF? I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that, but that's going to be painful to watch. Overall, I'm still interested in seeing what happens because let's face it, what was being done last year was not working on any level, but I'm skeptical. There is some talent on this team but I'm just afraid Mad Scientist Nellie is going to be too caught up in mixing his experiments to let the three young guys with talent play many minutes (Ellis, Diugu, Biedrins).
Shooting is about rhythm. I don't know how familiar you are with Nellie run teams, but most of the points are scored not from the 3 point line or mid range jumpers off of picks. It's the transition game, mismatches on the offensive side of the court. I think to assumt that Magically it will improve is the wrong wording. Stylistically, the team will focus on it's strengths (which is not bombing 30 3 pointers a game) Surely that will lead to more wins.
I agree with hirez and boogie lew about failed experiments like Dun at PF and Ike at C last season, but what happens if Nelson's version of that matchup does work because Baron is healthier and there is no Fisher to run the worst fastbreak in basketball? Fisher was kind of dumb for point guard standards. He would launch these early shotclock shots that he cannot make easily. He is useless shooting off the dribble, he cannot make smart decisions on the drive, everything he does must be scripted, and he is not very quick either. He's just not a creative playmaker and he tends to be blind or dumb or both when it comes to distributing the ball. ryanfish may have a point about what Dun's role may actually be in terms of Nelson's version of point forward... We can look back at Antoine Walker and imagine something like that only better ballhandling and less chucks behind the arc. Forwards typically don't handle the ball that well, but we know that Dunleavy won't be primary ballhandler and distributor anyway. The only forward type guy that really good was Magic Johnson. 6'9 and played everything, but point guard was his best position because when he passed, it was like "magic". He is the basketball version of Hellen Keller, but I think Keller wouldn't screw up the fastbreak so badly. I think Cohanhater is right to some degree. A lot of the high %'s players get is because they get layups, wide open shots (either from transition or moving the ball around to get defenders away from certain players to help out thier teammates). The last few years our ball movement has been pretty static. You can't create openings without movement (either player or ball movement or both). We also need to play defense or shoot free throws. Preferably both, but if we can't have both, we need one. Just look at Spurs/Pistons vs. Dallas/Kings/Nets. Actually Nets weren't that good at the line, but they were balanced between tough D and free throws.
I'm not too sure about the Dun at PF expiriment, if he could shoot consistently that would help but as of now the only thing we can trust him to do well is dribble and pass. I think the lineup will eventually be changed to Ike at PF in place of Dun with Dun being a super sub able to play all 5 positions. With Ike we've got more bulk, shotblocking, and toughness on the inside plus he's a better/smarter shooter than Dun. Murphy can draw one of the big men out of the paint and Ike will have the inside to himself one on one against the other remaining big. Murphy can clean the defensive glass and get back quickly since he'll be on the perimiter on offense and Ike can continue to wreak havoc on the offensive boards and serve as a good trailor on the break.
Every team I've played on, there's always been one guy who shines in practice, but can't emmulate it during the real games. Maybe Mike Dunleavy is one of these "practice players," who looks great in drills, but can't put it together mentally when it really counts. (or maybe the Warriors are so bad defensively in practice Dunleavy looks awesome?) Every scout and coach raves about Dunleavy and get it stuck in their heads he can be an offensive force for them. He was a favorite of Coach K's at Duke, Mullin liked him enough to select him #3 overall in the draft, Monty experimented with him in numerous roles, and now Nellie is the latest to be seduced by the potential of Dunleavy. He's obviously doing something right to impress all these people, but at face value Dunleavy has been sub-par for the Warriors. Reading through some of the insight, I've come to the same conclusion as most of you, Dunleavy at PF is insanity. Maybe Nellie can invision him handling the ball out on the perimeter like Dirk used to and then use his speed advantage to get around larger forwards. The problem is, Dunleavy doesn't have the respect of defenders to guard him up close. They'll be more than happy to watch him chuck a 3 or give the ball up despite having a mismatch. Maybe Dunleavy just isn't suited for uptempo basketball? From what I've seen, I think he'd be far more effective in halfcourt sets where his passing skills can be put to use. At Duke he was a lot more efficient, because he had a big man to play off of. He was great at making the entry pass inside, and moved along the baseline to find his shot, when teams cheated in the zone.
One thing about Ike is that not only is he far superior to Dun inside, but he's an even better outside shooter too. He has a nice touch out to about 18 feet, and his shooting is much more consistent that Dun's as well. He's probably even a better outside shooter than Murphy is (again, inside 18'), but I don't want to see him used too much out there either, where his sweet footwork and post moves that the Warriors desperately lack on the rest of their roster would be wasted.
There is a chance that Ike is the player that Nelson always wished Victor Alexander would be (when he wasn't benched for being overweight). I think we're going to see a lot of both Murphy and Ike at the 5 this year. JRich and Davis will play some post, and Dunleavy will be one of those guys that brings the ball up to pass the ball into the post. It should be exciting at the very least.
