How many ppl think Nelson is trying to up trade values?

Custodian,
Don't forget that Victor Alexander was the starting point center for a good part of the season where the Warriors jumped out to a fast enough start that Nellie coached the all-star game for the west (When he wasn't being benched for not making weight). The guys that played a majority of minutes in that front court were Tyrone Hill, Owens, Alexander and Gatling. As energetic and athletic as Gatling was, he wasn't a shot blocker, Hill was, but I don't think getting a guy like him is going to be too difficult.

 

Ah man, okay I got two posts to reply to (jv and ch), but I promise I will get back to you guys later. I'm just stopping by for a few.

Let's just say I'll try to wait for the actual results (good or bad) before I say anything... good or bad. But once something bad happens I may not be able to stop myself because I think this organization is run by the same kinds of people who ran the Knicks into the ground. Damn New Yorkers. j/k

Also, CH, don't forget I can't remember what the rest of our pacific division and western conference foes were actually like. I think it may be harder to win with similar players back before 94 if all of our biggest opponents have gotten better. Only Seattle and a few other teams sound like they didn't get much better. The Jazz are always in question with injuries and what not.

 

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think you're way off on Mullin. He hired Nelson which is a coup over keeping an NBA flunky like Montgomery. There was no identity and chemistry with his team. He played pick and roll. When that didn't work, he went to small ball and his substitutions were erratic. Monty was in over his head in the NBA. You can say Mullin didn't provide leadership with Monty because Monty and Mullin didn't seem to be on the same page (with Nelson, it's clear they are on the same page). Mullin hasn't been a great GM, but I think Nelson will help him because he knows what he wants. For example, getting Dajuan Wagner was a real coup.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "coup". This season hasn't even begun yet so we can't call Nelson a success over Montgomery if we again fail to meet the same playoff hype we got back in '05.

The reason there was no identity with this team was because we kept packing the roster full of overpaid backups that provided little foundation inside the paint or defensively. Mullin just blindly signed guys on hunches rather than the principle of inside/outside game and ball movement. One can't pass if he doesn't think like a smart basketball player. One can't catch if one has shtty hands or doesn't move to get open.

There was also little flexibility to add impact players to our lineup because we kept overpaying guys so much they can't be traded until they are at the end of their deals or we package talented players to get rid of garbage deals. There was also no momentum going forth with the Baron Davis trade. The first few months of successful play when the Warriors were statistically eliminated from the playoffs do not count because they couldn't do it when it mattered. Mullin just stood pat in terms of followup moves, but jumped blindly on Dunleavy as he did Foyle, Jrich, Murphy, Fisher. The only players Mullin got right was Jrich, and arguably Troy Murphy.

The coach Nelson hiring was the last possible thing he could do to save face because at least he could argue a coach like Nelson could take his weird "attempted halfcourt", no inside presence lineup and make it better than the worst we've seen from a rookie coach. The '04 lineup carried to this season is still pretty flawed to the point where Mullin should be held in serious question compared to Isiah Thomas. Does he even know what he's doing? Or is he playing hunches? There still is no identity and chemistry because Mullin got the wrong f'n players because he plays favorites, doesn't have experience as a gm, he doesn't assemble the correct formula to be an offensive/defensive/balanced team that can play a bit inside or outside or at least play inside or outside extremely well (fast or slow).

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
I'm not so sure Mullin is the guy who hired Montgomery. He didn't interview anyone else. It sounds like a Cohan move since Mullin and Higgins were prohibited from firing Monty until the second season was done. Monty is a dead issue now and it's boring to keep going back to it.
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Why are you not sure? Media speculation? I mean GM has to pick a coach and if he picked the wrong coach, he f-ed up again because he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Getting Foyle as his expensive starting center first free agent signing of his career is not what you do for a coach like Montgomery that values guys like the Collins Twins, the Vlade Divacs, the Brad Millers that can pass, shoot, rebound and defend some. Instead he has got a braindead center that can't even catch, rebound or do basic basketball stuff. Maybe I agree that Monty wasn't Mullin's first choice of head coach because of his free agent choices. Totally different than the guys Monty would recruit from high school who tend to have good fundamentals and can make their simple shots and run plays. Now if Mullin didn't get to pick his own coach right off the bat and waste 4 year deal on Monty, the Warriors management above Mullin is more f-ed up than I thought. But maybe it is the Warriors management's job to hire incompetent personnel to match their own incompetence level. Isn't there one guy who will let somebody hire their own people? It's bad enough the GM gets to choose the players for the coach, but the GM can't even pick the coach to play his players? That's nonsense if that's the case.


<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
As for center and power forward positions, we'll have to wait and see. I think Murphy will be the starter until someone comes along who is better. There isn't anyone else on the team who is better than him at center. AB will back him up and Foyle will play against the big men like Shaq and Yao. At PF, Dun is in his best starting position with this team. He will get the ball in his hands more. I think on offense this is okay. It's going to be difficult on the defensive side of the ball. Both Murphy and Dun aren't great defenders and one or both will likely have to sit. Ike won't be the answer on D either as he isn't good enough to take on a man by himself. This will be a big problem imo and cause Nellie and Warriors fans some grief.
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I think we can wait and see, but I think it's going to fail because of Mullin's and whoever is in charge, not being too bright or experienced.

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
I'm not so sure you understand Nellie's scheme. It won't be man to man, but zone as well. Both MP and Dun will get help if they are beaten and Nellie's point system will identify the weak areas as well as quantify it. </div>
MP and Dun will get help if they are beaten? From who? Jrich? Baron? So they can wind up in foul trouble when they reach in intentionally to save a layup? What about our worst defender playing a defensive position near the hoop... I mean my gawd... Murphy? Zone is not going to work if the other team can shoot it or they can dribble penetrate and split defenders and not worry about shotblockers. Watch when ballhandlers rip us apart and guys like Murphy and Dun cannot defend the hoop to cover weakside or defend the paint. Watch the intentional fouls and high % layups against us increase. We'll get attacked constantly so we're always on our heels. And if we can't make stops, then we can't run. Undersized centers and forwards like Ben Wallace, Amare Stoudamire, and Shawn Marion are at least shotblockers, leapers and quick lateral movement type players that can play like big men. Two slow white guys that play small to begin with will get owned. You can't play one side of the court and expect the other team's coach not to make adjustments and shut down our only inside presence which is guards. Big men have to make that presence whether it's the Shaq/Amare/Webber kind, the Duncan/Brand kind, or the KG/Dirk Nowitzki kind.

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
It appears to be the reason why Larry Riley was brought in and Elie let go.</div>
I don't think this has anything to do with our defense. I mean what defense? Two lightweight, slow guys that don't block shots trying to defend the hoop? I think Elie was let go because Nelson wants guys loyal to him and Riley is his guy that will carry things out. I think it's a mutually exclusive event. Coaches just want their own guys like Gms want their own guys. Elie and Riley have nothing or very little to do with each other when it comes to defense coaching.

 

<div class="quote_poster">CohanHater Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Custodian,
Don't forget that Victor Alexander was the starting point center for a good part of the season where the Warriors jumped out to a fast enough start that Nellie coached the all-star game for the west (When he wasn't being benched for not making weight). The guys that played a majority of minutes in that front court were Tyrone Hill, Owens, Alexander and Gatling. As energetic and athletic as Gatling was, he wasn't a shot blocker, Hill was, but I don't think getting a guy like him is going to be too difficult.</div>

Well was Gatling at least strong? I'd take a motivated and strong, non-shotblocking Danny Fortson at center than Murphy. But I guess we can't make something happen if we don't have it. It's why Mullin has been going nutzo on the draft when it comes to bigs, but his other moves probably spell that we won't be able to keep them all financially or develop them all playing time wise.

 

Ha, I don't know about strong, he was a freak athletically, and coiuld jump through the roof.

 

<div class="quote_poster">CohanHater Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Ha, I don't know about strong, he was a freak athletically, and coiuld jump through the roof.</div>

Okay then I worry that because Dun and Murphy aren't athletic and are not quick laterally, they can't get to the spots on the floor to beat the attacker on defense. Jeff Foster is pretty athletic non shotblocker, but I think he does more on the defensive end inside the paint than guys like Dun and Murph will do. It's just too imbalanced to have those guys on the floor unless they've got the Brad Miller or Ben Wallace thing going on. Maybe Murphy has a chance to be a top defensive rebound, but that requires the other guys play defense to make stops and that Murphy helps out on defense and boxes out for others to get rebounds as well. I'm very doubtful of Dunleavy at PF in a real game versus the things he does in practice. He should be coming off the bench to play some point and maybe some forward when it favors him.

 

<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not sure what you mean by "coup". This season hasn't even begun yet so we can't call Nelson a success over Montgomery if we again fail to meet the same playoff hype we got back in '05.</div>

I called getting Wags was a coup. Getting Nelson was such a big coup, I didn't think it had to be mentioned. Nellie's winning record is pretty much untouchable. So if you're looking for a Nelson vs. Monty debate here, get ready to be PWN3D.

As for identity, it was the very first thing Nelson set up. He knows what he wants -- Murphy at center, MDJ at PF, MP (instead of JRich) at SF after a few practices, Ellis and Wags at SG, Ellis and Roberson (?) at backup PG and most most important Foyle on the bench. With Monty, we'd still have Foyle at starting center and same question marks from last season. No identity. No chemistry. No ONE. Instead of the ONE campaign, we could've had the NONE campaign under Montgomery.

As for your browbeating of Mullin, we are still in cap hell, but it should be easier to make trades now. We got Ike, Zarko and POB who all don't fit Nellie's system to varying degrees. Maybe we can even trade Foyle and his bloated contract if he gets his weight down and starts to rebound the ball.

Also, Nelson should help guide Mullin in the GM department. It's still Mullin's ship but hopefully Nelson will help him avoid making the overpayment mistakes. I doubt Mullin will extend MP until he proves himself and if he doesn't, then MP will be another player that he can use as trade bait. But we still have a lot of ball to watch before the trading deadline, so we can wait.

That's about all the time I have now to respond, but it should cover the main points.

 

I'm serious, wtf is coup? I've never heard of it used in that context before and very rarely is it used in other terms to define something you think was a successful move. I've heard of a political coup, but c'mon you talking street now? I mean I don't know what high school kids talk like these days.

Anyway, like I said before, you can't call something successful if the results are the same which is: we fail to make the playoffs. That was the hype last year but we failed to reach the playoffs. Also, you can't say something has an identity before it has a chance to work in regular season. If it doesn't propel us into the win column with more wins than losses, Nelson ball couldn't save us because of our roster makeup and salary structure. Nelson has credentials, a history, and more popularity than our previous coach, but it doesn't mean we'll make the playoffs. It's a smokescreen, a bailout, and a PR move to get guys' hopes up.

The other thing that annoys me is people that accuse me of trying to start a Monty over new coach debate or Nelson debate. For the last time, I was FOR Nelson over Montgomery, just not Elie over Montgomery, Silas over Montgomery or whoever else could probably fail just as easily as Montgomery because they won't lead Mullin and they probably couldn't do it better than the second winningest coach in regular season with such a messed up lineup. Even Muss might end up in the same boat if he doesn't have more influence over Mullin in who he gets as players, especially at center and power forward and lead guard. I'm not mad btw, I'm just sayin'

I don't even like Montgomery being the coach of our rotten team because he's pretty much useless without his stanford playbook and smart guys he put together every year. What I do value is that Montgomery would probably put together a better TEAM if he scouted talent and did the GM thing. I'm sure he would spend a lot less on a guy like Foyle/Dunnothing/Fisher and wind up with a somewhat talented playoff team that consisted of a center as mediocre as the Collins twins and some slow white guy point guard that knows how to pass, dribble, shoot, and some decent swing scorers. It's not the old coach's fault that Mullin pressured him to play the guys he locked up for millions of dollars for over six years. Only Nelson could say, fck Foyle, I'm playing who I think is good because obviously you, Mullin, you jacked up and called the wrong shots from day one.

So let's not make this an "I'm sticking with Montgomery debate." It's about what Mullin had put together for his coaches and how he needed a guy like Nelson to bail him out on this mess because Mullin sucks at being GM as far experience/team vision/salary budgeting. He's probably the only guy that Mullin will listen to as a mentor. That's all it was. But also a big name coach could have the same results as New York's mess because both Isiah and Mullin have no clue what they are doing and it might be too late right now to reverse anything unless we do a salary dump. Luckily, we are nowhere near as bad of a money situation as the Knicks.

Also, c'mon... now I know you're probably in high school because you just used the term "PWN3D". Nobody really talks like that around here and I don't think we should make it a habit unless we're on some video game site bragging about our frag count. Actually, I might have said it once or twice and I aplogize, but it was never to anyone on this board. Just players, as in, Elton Brand will own Dunleavy and I don't think I ever said, "pwn"

One more thing, it's always easier to trade talented/promising low pay rookie scale guys like Ike and POB, but for what value in return? Personally, I think not playing those big guys will screw up their values on the market because POB is a project on the cheap and Ike is still viewed as undersized (and not the Elton Brand kind). Trading with upside/bird rights is one thing, but how much more can one really get for Ike or POB unless they get some action? Besides, I think trading those guys is a mistake period because Dun + Murphy can't last for long especially if something happens to Nelson again. Murphy and Dun are limited upside players who play nothing like the new positions they will play this year in any other offense. It also doesn't help increase a prototypical big guy like Ike Diogu or one of our other big's values if they sit. Just because they are big doesn't mean we will get more value back for them.

If you don't have time to respond. Just say, "I will come back later when I'm ready."

 

I used to think the lineup was all for trade value but after watching the first game, I know it isn't.

The rotation of Murph, Dunleavy, Pietrus, 2 guard and Richardson is the best for the Nellie lineup right now. Our two wussy white boys actually looked good defending, moving and helping. Until Ike can adjust to moving without the ball and staying on his man and Biedrins can hit free throws and shoot a jumper, Dunleavy and Murphy will start. I was consumed with the idea of trading both but with Nellie I truly think both could be actual good role players.

Pietrus does exactly what is asked of him and that is to defend, rebound and run the floor.

I'm stoked.

 

<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I mean what defense? Two lightweight, slow guys that don't block shots trying to defend the hoop?</div>

There's no doubt this team is going to be super-soft defensively in the paint. I love the run-n-gun, but like you say if the other team makes their shots, it's hard to get out and run it back.

I haven't watched a practice yet, but I'll tell you right now I bet Ike Diogu has a field day with Dunleavy in the paint. I mean Dunleavy guarding fours? Ike probably backs him down and pins him underneath the hoop with his ass every time, like boxing out while dribbling lol. I remember how Ike went crazy against the Wallace brothers in Detroit and wonder what it would be like watching 'ol flatfoot Dun Dun trying to guard him. Probably not very pretty.

I guess Dun can take Ike off the dribble on the other end, though, so he has that. But do you really want your power forward to be a finesse guy who plays away from the basket? I don't get that.

 

I don't want to jump to conclusions either, but I agree that our matchups would come into question on a nightly basis. We need some kind of anchor to be there for us offensively and defensively in the paint and all that other crap like dribbling and passing.

 

I've been thinking about this...obviously Nellie is able to see that Murphy and Dun are going to get punished on the defensive end by larger, more athletic players. He may be old but he's not blind or stupid. So I think the idea is that he accepts that and overall the tradeoff will be worth it. Dun and Murph will spread the defenses on the other end and the Warriors will run an uptempo game. If Dun and Murph getting beat on one end and Dun and Murph being able to score more over their larger counterparts on the other is a wash, the side benefit of having all this lead to a more uptempo game will favor the Warriors, who will be able to outscore most teams.

In other words, he's trying to neutralize the big-man size and post-move skill advantage most other teams will have over the Warriors, thus allowing the backcourt advantage the Warriors have over most teams to tip the balance in their favor. Based on watching the first few preseason games, I think this could work. It won't work every night, some nights it may get downright ugly (we're still screwed against the Suns), but there's something to it. I don't see Shaq getting back on defense very often against the fastest the Warriors have to offer. At the very least he'll be blowing and need a rest before too long.

 

The thing I don't like is we still don't have much inside outside presence compared to a team like Miami. Dwade can get to the rim on any of our guards any day of the week and not have any shotblockers back can really start hurting us even more. Plus, if Shaq is getting his way on our guys, he'll probably be shooting 70% for the game whereas our guards probably won't get as many high % points if the other team is stopping our transition game because they are scoring and also playing enough defense to pack in the paint or force guys to miss from outside.

I don't expect us to improve much with the same roster and a better coach. It's just frustrating because we lack some ingredients need to be a lock for the playoffs and time is running out before we really have to start over from scratch. I just hope we win more games than we lose because that actually helps increase player trade value for the players that helped us win those games. So if Dun, Pietrus and Murphy are being worldbeaters this season, I hope we find some great trades for them so we can bring more balance to this team (offensively/defensively/inside/outside and hopefully cap/luxury tax friendly). Maybe we find the next Ben Wallace or Brad Miller or some undervalued guy for our overpaid guys or we land a franchise big guy finally. I don't even care if it's 40 year old Kevin Garnett. If he holds up like Clif Robinson he'll be very helpful.