That post didn't make any sense Umair. And it was all over the place. If you want to know what Hayes did last season try reading durvasa's entire post. He didn't talk a lot about the preseason games, like you suggested, and he gave some great reasons why Hayes is more valuable that Howard.
Well he averaged 13.4 mpg last season, so, unless you were taking really long bathroom breaks, I don't see how you could think that.
It really doesn't matter about minutes. The point is that imo Howard is better than Hayes. Houston Rockets want to win a championship right now. Which is the reason they traded Gay for Battier. We want a championship right now. Why have a new guy play back up C for us? Ok i will say he is a good rebounder and a good post defender, but Howard has more experience than him. Howard has a good mid range jumpshot, and imo, I think Howard can help us win more than Hayes can.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes didn't play much with Yao and McGrady last year, because one or the other was usually injured in the second half of the season.</div> Exactly my point! All the stats u threw out, and NONE of them mattered because our best players were never on the court together. So AGAIN, why would you put somebody out there who's gonna be a liability each night? Teams are gonna expose Hayes as soon as he touches the floor, especially the elite teams. That's not smart basketball <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't care about what the team's record is when a player starts in a handful of games</div> But why are you throwin out stats on a player who only played significant minutes in a "handful of games"? There is no significant difference in Bowen and Hayes. Both of them are 3rd & 4th string guys who NEVER start on any other team. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Chuck Hayes is totally different. He actually possesses useful basketball skills, besides being an energizer bunny who flails around. He's a strong rebounder and team defender, he moves well without the ball, and he's a fantastic screener (an essential yet underrated aspect to the game). His PER last year was 18.0, exceeding the league average of 15.0 and easily eclipsing what Bowen has done the last two years (7.7 and 4.0).</div> Ur overrating every aspect of his game. Yes he can be effective, but for only 10-12 mins a game. All his stats are in limited games last year, with the starters injured. So the stats are decieving. For you to say you'll start Hayes over a proven veteran Juwan Howard, means you don't have a clue how to win a championship. If the Rockets are truly aiming for a title, they need to cut Hayes and pick up a better option for back PF/C. ] <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You're talking about 6 games Bowen started in the regular season, and then 7 games in the playoffs. It is a statistically insignificant sample. You cherry pick one stat (a useless one) that might favorable to Ryan Bowen, and therefore conclude that stats don't mean anything? What kind of logic is that? This is just absurd.</div> Both of them had limited roles on the team, but you seem determined to point out Haye's stats last year (in limited games at that). The guy just isn't starter material, he's not big enuff nor tall enuff to start in this league. If I cherry pick, then what exactly do you do? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I notice you just ignored the PER numbers I cited. What a surprise. Why do I even bother? </div> Per numbers in LIMITED GAMES. U seem to love cherry picking statistics, but fail to mention it wasn't with a full compliment of players and in limited mins. But you don't seem to mention any of that.......... <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly. We know what Howard can do with Tmac and Yao. Which is why I'm not looking forward to him getting a lot of minutes. It hasn't been very good overall. Conversely, what little I've seen of Hayes has been pretty good</div> Howard played his best ball right before the playoff series against Dallas. The team was rolling, and Howard was very efficient. If he can get back to that level, we'll be fine. But having an 6'6 Center backing up Yao isn't logical. JVG is the only coach that would some crazy sh%t like that. Looking at the history of the league, not many championship caliber teams had 6'6 Centers (with no offensive game) that were successful. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And actually, I watched more Rockets games than you last year. My psychic powers are even more powerful than yours, so I know this to be a fact. </div> Doesn't seem like it. Seems like you just glanced at the box scores and conjured up a conclusion <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Again, where's the logic here? Chuck Hayes played well last year. He played mostly against reserves, but he excelled against those reserves. That's why he deserves a spot on the roster. What does it matter that the team was injured when he got his chance? The Rockets have already acknowledged that they made a mistake sending Hayes to the D-league at the beginning of the season.</div> Mostly against reserves, in limited mins, in limited games on a injury plagued team. Conclusion, ur EXAGGERATING his impact on the team. I'm willing to bet you'll be backtracking when poor little Chuck doesn't have 1/4th of the impact you claimed he will. That would make all ur little stats irrelevant
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Both of them had limited roles on the team, but you seem determined to point out Haye's stats last year (in limited games at that). The guy just isn't starter material, he's not big enuff nor tall enuff to start in this league. If I cherry pick, then what exactly do you do? </div> I'm referencing comprehensive stats; the sort that are used by people knowledgable about these kind of things like Daryl Morey. I'm looking at what Hayes did in over 500 minutes of play over a span of 40 games. You're talking about the win/loss results in literally a handful of games. Hayes played over 500 minutes last year. That's a pretty good sample. You can check the rest of the players last year who played between 300 and 500 minutes who had a higher PER than Hayes. If it's natural for scrubs to put up these kind of numbers with so minutes, then surely some will show up with a better PER than Hayes. Of course, you're not right, and no scrubs do show up. Here's a list of the top 100 PER players last season who played at least 300 minutes. If you're right, then I'd expect to find a number of crappy players (like Hayes) who had a PER in the same ballpark or better who played at least relatively few minutes ... say, between 300 and 600 (Hayes played 534 minutes). Only one player shows up, besides Hayes, who played less than 600 minutes and had a PER that even showed up in the top 100 -- Tonky Delk played 382 minutes with a PER of 16.2. Delk isn't a fluke either ... he had a pretty good PER (15.1) the previous year playing over 1300 minutes. For the heck of it, let's check 2005 as well. Maybe there were a bunch of crappy players that year who put up deceptively high PERs playing limited minutes (300 to 600 minutes). Let's see ... there's Bobby Jackson with an 17.99 PER in 536 minutes, but he's pretty good. Who else ... Zarko Cabarkapa had a 16.9 PER in 475 minutes. Not quite as impressive as Hayes, and he's a very different player, but a 16.9 PER is above average. He didn't play very well last year, so perhaps that was a fluke, but Rockets fans know how good he could be. He lit us up, if you recall. And that's it. So, you mean to say that Hayes is the only player in the entire league the last two years who managed to put up strong numbers playing at least 300 minutes despite being a terrible scrub who barely deserves a roster spot? No one else fits that category? Hey, maybe it's just a crazy fluke. I'm not discounting that as a possibility. Or maybe you're wrong, and Hayes really is a good player. I'm betting on the latter. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Per numbers in LIMITED GAMES. U seem to love cherry picking statistics, but fail to mention it wasn't with a full compliment of players and in limited mins. But you don't seem to mention any of that..........</div> See above. I'm referencing per minute stats, so it is total minutes that's the key indicator of whether the sample is large enough. Yeah, he didn't play with a full compliment of players. Neither did Juwan ... so what's his excuse for putting up lackluster numbers in the second half of the season? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Howard played his best ball right before the playoff series against Dallas. The team was rolling, and Howard was very efficient. If he can get back to that level, we'll be fine. But having an 6'6 Center backing up Yao isn't logical. JVG is the only coach that would some crazy sh%t like that. Looking at the history of the league, not many championship caliber teams had 6'6 Centers (with no offensive game) that were successful. </div> Wes Unseld ring a bell? Besides, not many championship caliber teams had 7'6 centers that were successful either. So what? What works, works. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Doesn't seem like it. Seems like you just glanced at the box scores and conjured up a conclusion </div> Seems to me like you base all your opinions off of Sportscenter highlights and Stephen A. Smith. And what argument have you put forth in this discussion to indicate you've watched more Rockets games than me? From what all I've seen, the only thing you know about Chuck Hayes is he's short and can't shoot. Wow, that's some really insightful commentary right there. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Mostly against reserves, in limited mins, in limited games on a injury plagued team. Conclusion, ur EXAGGERATING his impact on the team. I'm willing to bet you'll be backtracking when poor little Chuck doesn't have 1/4th of the impact you claimed he will. That would make all ur little stats irrelevant</div> My statements have been much more measured than yours. I said he deserves a chance to get 20 minutes a game. I think that's pretty conservative, considering how productive he was last year. You on the other hand completely discount everything he did last season and say he doesn't even deserve to be on the team. To me, that's much more extreme. And the way the Rockets wil handle Hayes this year will likely be much closer to what I'm expecting than you, and rightly so. They've done their homework, and they actually know a thing or two about what wins in basketball. Do I expect him to put the same numbers this season? Of course not. I'd be surprised if his PER is even 15.0 this year, playing longer minute against better players. But I'll bet you that his PER exceeds Juwan's (who has one foot in the grave). And the reason will be clear by the end of the season why ... he's just a better player. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly my point! All the stats u threw out, and NONE of them mattered because our best players were never on the court together. So AGAIN, why would you put somebody out there who's gonna be a liability each night? Teams are gonna expose Hayes as soon as he touches the floor, especially the elite teams. That's not smart basketball </div> Wait ... how does the fact that Hayes didn't get a chance to play much with McGrady and Yao indicate that he'll be a liability? Hayes did play a fair number of minutes with both players individually and the Rockets as a team were successful. Based on your argument, he'd be an even worse liability for the team with just one superstar on the court than with two, since there would be more incentive for the defense to collapse on them. With both Yao and McGrady on the court, that shouldn't be as much of a problem. Now ... my main argument here isn't simply that we played well with Hayes on the court with McGrady and/or Yao. That's only part of it, and by itself may not be that convincing. The other half of it is we have not played well at all with Howard on the court. You take both those together, and add in the fact that Howard is a year older while Hayes is just coming off a successful first year, and I believe there's compelling reason to make a switch. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But why are you throwin out stats on a player who only played significant minutes in a "handful of games"? There is no significant difference in Bowen and Hayes. Both of them are 3rd & 4th string guys who NEVER start on any other team. </div> This makes no sense. The Bowen comparison is off the rails, for reasons I've already stated numerous times. See my response in the other thread. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ur overrating every aspect of his game. Yes he can be effective, but for only 10-12 mins a game. All his stats are in limited games last year, with the starters injured. So the stats are decieving. For you to say you'll start Hayes over a proven veteran Juwan Howard, means you don't have a clue how to win a championship. If the Rockets are truly aiming for a title, they need to cut Hayes and pick up a better option for back PF/C.</div> I'm just repeating what Van Gundy, Dennis Lindsey, Carol Dawson, and Daryl Morey have said. He's a strong rebounder, a very good screener, our best post defender, etc. Look, my perspective here is much more in line with what the Rockets as an organization (and, I would bet, most NBA teams) believe than yours. You completely ignore vital aspects of the game in all of your commentary. Your only argument against Hayes is he's short, he can't shoot, and he's young. There's more to the game than size, athleticism, and shooting. Van Gundy has spelled out what he's looking for in his backup bigs, and Hayes fills that role the best. As I've stated elsewhere, the only thing holding him back is foul trouble. If he can figure out how to stay out of foul trouble, he's going to be a vital piece for this team in the coming season. <div class="quote_poster">Umair15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">We want a championship right now. Why have a new guy play back up C for us? Ok i will say he is a good rebounder and a good post defender, but Howard has more experience than him. Howard has a good mid range jumpshot, and imo, I think Howard can help us win more than Hayes can.</div> My argument for Hayes isn't simply for rebuilding purposes. I want to win now, as well. That's why I want the best lineups on the floor. The question is will the Rockets be more effective with Howard or Hayes on the floor? Assuming we have enough scoring at the other positions, I'd say Hayes provides more value. Howard has a decent mid range jumper, sure, but that's the only thing he does really well. He's not handling the ball or making plays for anyone else out there. He's a terrible help defender (you can count the number of blocks he's had with the team in the last two years on one hand). He's a poor rebounder. Despite having more size, he's a worse finisher around the basket than Hayes. And because he rarely gets to the free throw line, his overall offensive efficiency is near the bottom for his position. What has his "experience" brought the Rockets since he's been here? Like the article says, I think he's a good guy ... probably a nice locker-room presence. But when he's on the court, he's not leading the team. The Rockets organization have praised Hayes's unusually high basketball IQ for a young player. The guy understands how to play the game, probably better than most veterans. He's not just some young, inexperienced player who's going to be lost out there.
I know this is pretty basic, but here I go anyways. Hayes give you more chances to score. That is why McGrady's PPG went from 30-43 with Chuck Norris Hayes in the line up. The more offensive/defensive rebounds you have, the more chances you get to score. Which would you rather have? Howard shooting a mid range jumper, or 2 jumpers by any other players on our team?
<div class="quote_poster">igotask8board Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I know this is pretty basic, but here I go anyways. Hayes give you more chances to score. That is why McGrady's PPG went from 30-43 with Chuck Norris Hayes in the line up. The more offensive/defensive rebounds you have, the more chances you get to score. Which would you rather have? Howard shooting a mid range jumper, or 2 jumpers by any other players else on our team?</div> Not only did Yao and McGrady score more with Hayes on the court, they were also more efficient. There's pretty much no supporting evidence for the argument that Hayes will be a liability who will make it difficult for our stars to perform. Everything Rock4Life is saying regarding Hayes is purely speculative.
Hayes has yet to play with Tmac AND Yao for some time for us to see how well he fits in. Until then, I can't tell if Chuck is better of Juwan. But, as of yet, I've liked Chuck better, hard worker... Juwan to me .. seems lazy and doesn't play good defense.
<div class="quote_poster">Pakman Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> But, as of yet, I've liked Chuck better, hard worker... Juwan to me .. seems lazy and doesn't play good defense.</div> More like, seems lazy, but really just sucks at defense and offense. He use to be an okay/above average player, but ever since he came to the Rockets his game went down. He needs to get his FG% up and bang around more down low.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Not only did Yao and McGrady score more with Hayes on the court, they were also more efficient. There's pretty much no supporting evidence for the argument that Hayes will be a liability who will make it difficult for our stars to perform. Everything Rock4Life is saying regarding Hayes is purely speculative.</div> Hayes IS a liability on offense AND at the free throw line. You JUST said you haven't even seen the man play that much, but yet ur ready to start him over a proven veteran in Juwan Howard. That's the most careless statement i've heard thus far. The team has said all offseason that we need faster, quicker, and more athletic bigs. So you counter that with starting Chuck Hayes at PF? That's ridiculous lol. Ur basically raising the red flag and telling all the elite teams "Hey! Come clobber us". What we really need is a big body that can run the court and finish at the rim. Kinda like Diop on the Mavericks. Those type of players come cheap, and there are tons of them in the NBA & CBA. Cato played that role excellent when he was here. That'll give us an option to play two centers at the same time, which is what we REALLY need to do. All this playing a 6'6 Center is nonsense. The Rockets need not experiment this year, we need to chase a title.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes IS a liability on offense AND at the free throw line.</div> Again, where's the evidence? Show me where the evidence that the Rockets performed terribly last year with Hayes on the court more often than when Juwan was on the court. It doesn't exist. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You JUST said you haven't even seen the man play that much, but yet ur ready to start him over a proven veteran in Juwan Howard. That's the most careless statement i've heard thus far.</div> Juwan Howard is "proven" alright. He's proven that he's not very good. Hayes, on the other hand, has shown promise. Juwan's performance has steadily slipped the last 3 years. Hayes should improve going into his second season. Is this so hard to comprehend? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The team has said all offseason that we need faster, quicker, and more athletic bigs. So you counter that with starting Chuck Hayes at PF? That's ridiculous lol. Ur basically raising the red flag and telling all the elite teams "Hey! Come clobber us". </div> What, Juwan is "faster, quicker, and more athletic" than Chuck Hayes? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What we really need is a big body that can run the court and finish at the rim. Kinda like Diop on the Mavericks. Those type of players come cheap, and there are tons of them in the NBA & CBA. Cato played that role excellent when he was here. That'll give us an option to play two centers at the same time, which is what we REALLY need to do. All this playing a 6'6 Center is nonsense. The Rockets need not experiment this year, we need to chase a title.</div> Diop does one thing very well, and that's blocks shots. He's not a strong finisher (less than 50% last year, and less than 40% for his career). He's not a particularly strong rebounder for his size (Hayes had a much higher rebounding rate last year than Diop has ever had). He's not going to be as mobile on defense on the perimeter (which JVG requires from his bigs), and he's not nearly as good a screener which is an essential part of our offense. I don't think you understand the needs of our team very well. Just because a player is big and can dunk does not mean he's going to be more effective for us.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Again, where's the evidence? Show me where the evidence that the Rockets performed terribly last year with Hayes on the court more often than when Juwan was on the court. It doesn't exist.</div> Since I did watch ALL the games last year, his free throw shooting DID cost us a game last year. The WHOLE season was terrible last season. My point is this year we're healthy, and competing for a championship. The ONLY reason Hayes got PT last year was because we had a string of injuries. We're not in that situation anymore, and we need to seriously think about a back up for Yao who can play some PF. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan Howard is "proven" alright. He's proven that he's not very good. Hayes, on the other hand, has shown promise. Juwan's performance has steadily slipped the last 3 years. Hayes should improve going into his second season. Is this so hard to comprehend?</div> Juwan Howard: 11.8pts 6.7rebs 45%fg in 31mins and he played 80games last year. Chuck Hayes: 3.7pts 4.5rebs 56%fg in 13.4min and he played in 40games last year Ok, Let's look at the facts. Juwan Howard is the BETTER player for this team. He played almost THREE times the minutes, played in TWICE as many games. Scored THREE times the points and had more rebounds. Also, his playoff numbers are impressive. So AGAIN, my question is why would start this scrub over him? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What, Juwan is "faster, quicker, and more athletic" than Chuck Hayes? </div> I don't know who's faster, but he's definatley more athletic. He's a better scorer, better at the free throw line, an equal defender and all round better compliment player to this team (when healthy). Your an obvious Chuck Hayes fan, and you let it influence you into thinking these silly ideas. Juwan Howard should start PERIOD. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Diop does one thing very well, and that's blocks shots. He's not a strong finisher (less than 50% last year, and less than 40% for his career). He's not a particularly strong rebounder for his size (Hayes had a much higher rebounding rate last year than Diop has ever had). He's not going to be as mobile on defense on the perimeter (which JVG requires from his bigs), and he's not nearly as good a screener which is an essential part of our offense.</div> Um, no. Had you actually WATCHED the playoffs last year you'd had seen that Diop was one of the MAIN reasons they got to the finals. He wasn't much on offense, but he blocked shots, defended, and he was an overrall factor down low. His length and size gave teams problems, similar to what Cato did for us. Teams couldn't go to the rim on Dallas. Plus he can finish at the rim, which is a big plus in the paint. Are you actually sayin Chuck Hayes is who you want starting in the playoffs for ur team? That's who you invision playing center behind Yao and changing the flo of the game, um ok <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think you understand the needs of our team very well. Just because a player is big and can dunk does not mean he's going to be more effective for us.</div> No, I never said that. But a big that can finish at the rim, run the court, and use his size to be a factor in the paint would be PERFECT for this team. Not CHUCK HAYES.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Since I did watch ALL the games last year, his free throw shooting DID cost us a game last year.</div> I know the game you're talking about. Perhaps you forgot what actually happened on that play (or you're intentionally being dishonest). It was a final possession, we were down by one. We initially missed the shot and then Chuck Hayes grabbed the offensive rebound and got fouled. He missed the free throws, which cost us the game, but we were only in a position to win that game because he got the rebound. Where's the consistency? You're talking about getting a player like Diop (a career 47% FT shooter) or Cato (a career 64% FT shooter), and you want to criticize Chuck Hayes based on his free throw shooting? Furthermore, Hayes has worked diligently every day this summer on his free throws, because he knew it was a weakness. He hit 3 out of 4 in the last game. Why paint him as a lost cause in that department? Historically, players don't shoot free throws well in the first year but they tend to improve as their career progresses. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The WHOLE season was terrible last season. My point is this year we're healthy, and competing for a championship. The ONLY reason Hayes got PT last year was because we had a string of injuries. We're not in that situation anymore, and we need to seriously think about a back up for Yao who can play some PF. </div> Your logic here is quite muddled. If Hayes only got PT last year because of injuries, it doesn't follow that he doesn't deserve PT this year when we're healthy. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Juwan Howard: 11.8pts 6.7rebs 45%fg in 31mins and he played 80games last year. </div> Exactly. That's not very good. Bravo ... he played a lot of minutes last year. That doesn't make him a good player. His meager production despite all the minutes and touches he got is a good indication of this. Neither Hayes or Juwan need to play 30 minutes this year. We need them for maybe 20-25 minutes. Who can fill in for those minutes most effectively? Well, we know what Juwan can do ... and it's fairly underwhelming. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Chuck Hayes: 3.7pts 4.5rebs 56%fg in 13.4min and he played in 40games last year</div> Right ... what exactly are you trying to demonstrate here? Hayes didn't score or rebound as much ... and he played a fraction of the minutes. So what? Oh no ... Hayes didn't play a lot last year as a rookie! That must mean he sucks! Please. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok, Let's look at the facts. Juwan Howard is the BETTER player for this team.</div> Apparently you don't know the difference between a "fact" and an "opinion". Rational people use facts to form opinions. I guess you use opinions to form opinions. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He played almost THREE times the minutes, played in TWICE as many games.</div> What does this prove? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Scored THREE times the points and had more rebounds.</div> Bwahaha. Yeah, playing "THREE times the minutes". Hey, if Juwan played three times the minute as Yao ... he'd also outscore and outrebound him. I guess that means he's a better scorer and rebounder than Yao. This is an absolute joke. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, his playoff numbers are impressive. So AGAIN, my question is why would start this scrub over him?</div> The last time Juwan Howard was in the playoffs was in 2001 ... 5 years ago. Back then, Juwan was actually an above average player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know who's faster, but he's definatley more athletic.</div> Ok. You don't know what you're talking about. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's a better scorer, better at the free throw line, an equal defender and all round better compliment player to this team (when healthy).</div> An equal defender? This is embarassing. "Better compliment player to this team" ... an opinion, NOT a fact. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Your an obvious Chuck Hayes fan, and you let it influence you into thinking these silly ideas. Juwan Howard should start PERIOD. </div> Oh, "PERIOD". I didn't realize that. Ok, you win. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Um, no. Had you actually WATCHED the playoffs last year you'd had seen that Diop was one of the MAIN reasons they got to the finals. He wasn't much on offense, but he blocked shots, defended, and he was an overrall factor down low. His length and size gave teams problems, similar to what Cato did for us.</div> We have a guy with length and size ... Mutombo. Diop averaged 2.7 PPG, and 61% from the free throw line in the playoffs. Based on your criteria, doesn't that make him a liability? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Teams couldn't go to the rim on Dallas. Plus he can finish at the rim, which is a big plus in the paint. Are you actually sayin Chuck Hayes is who you want starting in the playoffs for ur team? That's who you invision playing center behind Yao and changing the flo of the game, um ok </div> If you're talking about players who can change the flow of the game on the defensive end, anyone with any sense knows that Hayes would do that better than Howard. That was precisely the role he played for the team last year. Why don't you stick to comparing Hayes to Howard. You're all over the map. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, I never said that. But a big that can finish at the rim, run the court, and use his size to be a factor in the paint would be PERFECT for this team. Not CHUCK HAYES.</div> Great. Let's go into the time machine and pick up Shawn Kemp. Be realistic.
hehe, this argument between durvasa and Rock4Life is cracking me up. Heres what I interpreted from their posts: Rock4Life: doesn't like undersized bigs. He likes the fact that Juwan can sometimes hit the open jumper, which is one of the more important factors in running the Rockets offense. He believes Chuck Hayes is not proven enough to be in the NBA, and has no offensive game. Size matters along with experience. He would probably trade Charles Barkley for a bag of ruffles. durvasa: rebounding, defense, and good screening should be highly considered from our 4. Undersized Hayes rebounds and a higher rate thatn J-Ho. He has a better FG%, even though he can't hit the outside jumper as consistently as Howard he does other things to make up for it. My 'biased' vote goes to durvasa. I am all for Chuck Hayes. We win when he is in the line up. Simple as that. I hope JVG gives him a chance this season, and plays him with Yao/T-Mac. I don't know how any of you can feel so strong that Howard is better than Hayes. Were we both watching the same Juwan Howard last season? At this point we should be doing anything to keep his minutes as little as possible.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I know the game you're talking about. Perhaps you forgot what actually happened on that play (or you're intentionally being dishonest). It was a final possession, we were down by one. We initially missed the shot and then Chuck Hayes grabbed the offensive rebound and got fouled. He missed the free throws, which cost us the game, but we were only in a position to win that game because he got the rebound.</div> What's dishonest? Please elaborate. He cost us a game last year, and will cost us many more if we follwed ur logic. His free throw shooting is terrible, and being that he can't finish either, he's either gonna get fouled or blocked (or brick). U can't bend the truth, his lack of offensive skill serves no purpose on a real contender. Ur excuse is he makes the team better. My question is WHAT TEAM? Obviously not the team with Yao & Tmac on the court, because you haven't seen that yet and prolly won't. We're tryna WIN A RING HERE. Our job as a team is too cover up our weakness and play to our strengths. Not the other way around.............. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Where's the consistency? You're talking about getting a player like Diop (a career 47% FT shooter) or Cato (a career 64% FT shooter), and you want to criticize Chuck Hayes based on his free throw shooting? Furthermore, Hayes has worked diligently every day this summer on his free throws, because he knew it was a weakness. He hit 3 out of 4 in the last game. Why paint him as a lost cause in that department? Historically, players don't shoot free throws well in the first year but they tend to improve as their career progresses.</div> There all big enuff to finish. Cato got atleast 2 or 3 alley hoops a game with us. Why? because teams would focus so much on Yao, they'd leave Cato WIDE OPEN on the weakside. Those are the same looks Hayes is gonna get, but he can't jump high enuff to catch an alley and isn't tall enuff to score with a bigman on him. Our team is already a good defensive team, and we already have better rebounding. We don't NEED CHUCK HAYES. Your overhyping his little spurt he had last year, and downplaying Howard's ability to hit open shots. Hitting open shots is CRUCIAL to this teams success, if not then being able to finish in the paint is. Hayes does niether. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Your logic here is quite muddled. If Hayes only got PT last year because of injuries, it doesn't follow that he doesn't deserve PT this year when we're healthy.</div> Nope. because he only played in 40 games and averaged little over 10mins. All of sudden you jump to the conclusion that he's better than Juwan Howard, a PROVEN vet who has shown he can get the job done. I would bet $$$, teams would rather take a vet like Howard over a nobody in Chuck Hayes. Simply opinion, but it's very logical. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly. That's not very good. Bravo ... he played a lot of minutes last year. That doesn't make him a good player. His meager production despite all the minutes and touches he got is a good indication of this.</div> 11pts & 6rebs isn't good? I'd take that ANYDAY over 3.3pts Hayes is gonna give you. 3.3pts? C'mon now Charles Oakley can come back outta retirement and give you more than that. That's disgusting!! And ur tryna convince me he's BETTER than Juwan Howard lol...HELL NO <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Neither Hayes or Juwan need to play 30 minutes this year. We need them for maybe 20-25 minutes. Who can fill in for those minutes most effectively? Well, we know what Juwan can do ... and it's fairly underwhelming.</div> We just need Howard to do what he did last year. 11 & 6 is perfectly fine with me. If not, we need to trade for real back up PF/C and cut Hayes. Howard is NOT the long term solution, but he'll get the job done until we upgrade. He obtains the neccesary qualities we need to compete. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Right ... what exactly are you trying to demonstrate here? Hayes didn't score or rebound as much ... and he played a fraction of the minutes. So what?</div> So ur implying that in 30mins a game Hayes is gonna give MORE than 11 & 6. Are you willing to stick by that statement? I sure hope so, because you'll just prove my point. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Oh no ... Hayes didn't play a lot last year as a rookie! That must mean he sucks! Please.</div> He does suck. And if he didn't play alot last year, how are you so sure he's gonna be able to help the team win a championship? All the stats you throw out, and then you just admit that you 1)haven't seen him play that much and 2)he actually DIDN'T play that much. Meaning that ur stats are decieving because it was in LIMITED time. Which brings up back to what I've been saying. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Bwahaha. Yeah, playing "THREE times the minutes". Hey, if Juwan played three times the minute as Yao ... he'd also outscore and outrebound him. I guess that means he's a better scorer and rebounder than Yao. This is an absolute joke.</div> There is a REASON he played "THREE" times the minutes, because he's the BETTER player If Hayes was the wonderful player you make him to be, he'd be averaging 30mins a game, and Howard would be getting 10mins a game lol. But unfortunatley in this league the better players get more of the minutes. Ur stats can't overcome that either <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The last time Juwan Howard was in the playoffs was in 2001 ... 5 years ago. Back then, Juwan was actually an above average player.</div> So Juwan Howard is below average? 11pts & 6rebs isn't decent numbers? Antione Walker averaged 12pts & 5rebs in 37mins last yr for Miami. Is Antione Walker below average also? But you see the Rockets winning a champinship with Chuck Hayes?I'm lost <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Ok. You don't know what you're talking about. </div> let me guess, and you do <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">An equal defender? This is embarassing. "Better compliment player to this team" ... an opinion, NOT a fact.</div> Well ya see in the game of basketball, when you have two superstars, teams tend to focus on them leaving other players open for shots. In that sense, you'd prolly wanna have players that can hit the open shots in which "compliment" the team better. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> We have a guy with length and size ... Mutombo. Diop averaged 2.7 PPG, and 61% from the free throw line in the playoffs. Based on your criteria, doesn't that make him a liability?</div> I understand Mutumbo's role, but he doesn't get up and down the court and he has problems catching the ball on the run. Diop can atleast run the court and finish on the break. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If you're talking about players who can change the flow of the game on the defensive end, anyone with any sense knows that Hayes would do that better than Howard. That was precisely the role he played for the team last year.</div> For what team? The team where our starters were injured? You can't be talking about the championship team we have this year. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Great. Let's go into the time machine and pick up Shawn Kemp. Be realistic.</div> If Kemp can run the court and score around the basket, then I'll be all for it. Actually, I heard Kemp is back in shape too. That's the first logical thing you've said since being in this forum. Congrads!!!
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">There all big enuff to finish. Cato got atleast 2 or 3 alley hoops a game with us. Why? because teams would focus so much on Yao, they'd leave Cato WIDE OPEN on the weakside. Those are the same looks Hayes is gonna get, but he can't jump high enuff to catch an alley and isn't tall enuff to score with a bigman on him. Our team is already a good defensive team, and we already have better rebounding. We don't NEED CHUCK HAYES. Your overhyping his little spurt he had last year, and downplaying Howard's ability to hit open shots. Hitting open shots is CRUCIAL to this teams success, if not then being able to finish in the paint is. Hayes does niether.</div> If Cato got at least 2 or 3 alley oops a game with Houston, then 90% of his FGs must have been alley oops. He averaged 2.4 FGs/game with Houston over his 5 years. It seems unlikely "at least 2 or 3" of the 2.4 FGs were alley oops every night. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So Juwan Howard is below average? 11pts & 6rebs isn't decent numbers? Antione Walker averaged 12pts & 5rebs in 37mins last yr for Miami. Is Antione Walker below average also? But you see the Rockets winning a champinship with Chuck Hayes?I'm lost </div> Antoine Walker played 26.8 mpg last year.
Rock4life, your whole standpoint reeks of double-standard and bias, which durvasa has pointed out a lot of already. You bash Hayes for not being "experienced", while you were driving the Rudy Gay bandwagon and saying he would help more than Battier. Also, you brought up the stats and specifically mentioned that Hayes played a less than half of Howard's minutes. Then you go off and blow up his 11 and 6 last year to astronomical proportions. Why, if Battier is starting at power forward this year, will Howard still bring you 11 and 6? Hell, even if Howard starts at the four, he'd still be fourth option. Would he still be 11 and 6. I know you watch Rockets games, and if you recall, early in the 04-05 season when Mo Taylor was starting at power forward, Howard was terrible off the bench? He had one game in double-digits scoring. It's evident that Howard is best in a starting role, but even that "best" won't be better than what Battier can give you starting at power forward. And off the bench, Hayes is better, so it's logical to relegate Howard to third-string. Another thing I found funny is that before the Wells signing, we had regressed badly according to you and didn't satisfy any of our needs that you thought were needed. Then, once we get Wells, trading for Battier and signing Spanouliss become great moves, and we become an instant "championship team"? C'mon.
<div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Rock4life, your whole standpoint reeks of double-standard and bias, which durvasa has pointed out a lot of already. You bash Hayes for not being "experienced", while you were driving the Rudy Gay bandwagon and saying he would help more than Battier.</div> If ur gonna attempt to discredit my point, you can ATLEAST quote me right. First off, I don't care about Hayes's lack of experience more so LACK OF TALENT, LACK OF SIZE, and LACK OF ATHLETICISM. Experience is not what we disagree on and I don't quite know what ur talking about. Back to the subject............ <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Also, you brought up the stats and specifically mentioned that Hayes played a less than half of Howard's minutes. Then you go off and blow up his 11 and 6 last year to astronomical proportions. Why, if Battier is starting at power forward this year, will Howard still bring you 11 and 6? Hell, even if Howard starts at the four, he'd still be fourth option. Would he still be 11 and 6. I know you watch Rockets games, and if you recall, early in the 04-05 season when Mo Taylor was starting at power forward, Howard was terrible off the bench? He had one game in double-digits scoring. It's evident that Howard is best in a starting role, but even that "best" won't be better than what Battier can give you starting at power forward. And off the bench, Hayes is better, so it's logical to relegate Howard to third-string.</div> I didn't blow up his averages last season. 11pts & 6rebs is respectable and better than ur average PF. However, I did misquote his minutes but my point was that Antione Walker gives Miami the same numbers on Miami. My argument really isn't that he neccesarily starts, more so WHO starts in front of him. The reason we got all these new players was because our team had been undersized, so why would we go back and start a 6'6 PF? Or why would you play a 6'6 midget at back up center. The Rockets would be moving backwards. <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Another thing I found funny is that before the Wells signing, we had regressed badly according to you and didn't satisfy any of our needs that you thought were needed. Then, once we get Wells, trading for Battier and signing Spanouliss become great moves, and we become an instant "championship team"? C'mon.</div> Yep. If you pay attention to my comments, they make alot of sense. My main complaint was a consistent 3rd scorer. Even with Battier, we STILL needed somebody who can create their own shot. We didn't have any balance, we just had shooters but not any playmakers (beside our superstars). Tmac needed a back up badly, and I didn't think Snyder was ready to fill that role. BUT with the addition of Wells, we filled in a much needed void. We can indeed compete for a ring now, but we still have a hole at PF. If Howard is the best we can do for now, so be it. But starting Chuck Hayes is nothing less but SETTLING for mediocore. That's the WORST thing you can do in a Conference where ur starting line up needs to be well balanced. Hayes best attributes is his rebounding, well we have guards who crash the boards now. His lack of offense will do nothing but make it harder for our superstars to space the floor. His man will ROAM and harrass Tmac & Yao around the court.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If ur gonna attempt to discredit my point, you can ATLEAST quote me right. First off, I don't care about Hayes's lack of experience more so LACK OF TALENT, LACK OF SIZE, and LACK OF ATHLETICISM. Experience is not what we disagree on and I don't quite know what ur talking about. Back to the subject............ </div>That's my mistake actually. I just ran a search on the page and it was Umair who valued experience. My bad. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't blow up his averages last season. 11pts & 6rebs is respectable and better than ur average PF. However, I did misquote his minutes but my point was that Antione Walker gives Miami the same numbers on Miami. My argument really isn't that he neccesarily starts, more so WHO starts in front of him. The reason we got all these new players was because our team had been undersized, so why would we go back and start a 6'6 PF? Or why would you play a 6'6 midget at back up center. The Rockets would be moving backwards.</div>While 11 and 6 certainly isn't bad, it's not good either, considering the minutes that Howard played and the fact that he was second option for more than half the games last season, and 1st option quite a few times. 6 rebounds for a power forward is a shame, seeing that Howard guarded only fours and was stationed around the basket most of the time on defense. Bonzi Wells is 6-6 and averaged 8 a game. If I'm not wrong, this was never about starting Hayes. If you read the article that durvasa posted, it was over who to be the backup four if Battier were to start the position. Maybe you've been misunderstanding the topic all along. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yep. If you pay attention to my comments, they make alot of sense. My main complaint was a consistent 3rd scorer. Even with Battier, we STILL needed somebody who can create their own shot. We didn't have any balance, we just had shooters but not any playmakers (beside our superstars). Tmac needed a back up badly, and I didn't think Snyder was ready to fill that role. BUT with the addition of Wells, we filled in a much needed void. We can indeed compete for a ring now, but we still have a hole at PF. If Howard is the best we can do for now, so be it. But starting Chuck Hayes is nothing less but SETTLING for mediocore. That's the WORST thing you can do in a Conference where ur starting line up needs to be well balanced. Hayes best attributes is his rebounding, well we have guards who crash the boards now. His lack of offense will do nothing but make it harder for our superstars to space the floor. His man will ROAM and harrass Tmac & Yao around the court.</div>Well, if you'd paid attention to anything durvasa said and also during the games, Hayes won't be a liability on offense. Sure, he won't hit a jumper like Howard, but when he is left alone on the outside, he'd dash straight to the basket, forcing his man to stick back to him, and if the defender didn't, Yao would find Hayes with a pass and an easy finish. Sure, he won't finish above the rim, but what's the difference between a layup and a dunk as long as it's two points? Not to mention by getting into the post, Hayes would be much better positioned for an offensive rebound if Yao were to miss in the post. He's very strong and always got good position down low for offensive boards. Surely someone as knowledgeable as you about the team should have noticed that last season?
