lmao.. this is funny.. I just think that Howard should start because of his experience. We cant have a second year player starting for us when we are trying to win a championship. We need an experienced player to have a run at the championship. Say if we started Hayes at PF, he would help us a lot, way more than Howard, but I dont know why I just dont want Hayes to start as PF on a championship team. Let him get some experience. But not right now.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">lmao.. this is funny.. I just think that Howard should start because of his experience. We cant have a second year player starting for us when we are trying to win a championship. We need an experienced player to have a run at the championship. Say if we started Hayes at PF, he would help us a lot, way more than Howard, but I dont know why I just dont want Hayes to start as PF on a championship team. Let him get some experience. But not right now.</div> Once again, this isn't about who starts, at least to me. I thought it was presumed that Battier would start, and the question was who would back him up. If it were for Hayes starting, I'd definitely have my doubts.
Backups.. Hmm.. Hayes definetly then. I just didnt want Hayes to starting. But in that case, screw Howard, put Hayes in. He hustles, rebounds, plays defense. He is great. But no matter what, I don't want him to start. If it was who will start outta Howard and Hayes, then I would say howard, but since its bench, I would say Hayes.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What's dishonest? Please elaborate. He cost us a game last year, and will cost us many more if we follwed ur logic. </div> Reread what I said. Each sentence. You can't say he cost us a game when he was the one who put us in a position to win the game in the first place (by grabbing the offensive rebound and getting fouled). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ur excuse is he makes the team better. My question is WHAT TEAM? Obviously not the team with Yao & Tmac on the court, because you haven't seen that yet and prolly won't. </div> I've addressed this, but you won't respond to what I said. You just keep repeating yourself. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Those are the same looks Hayes is gonna get, but he can't jump high enuff to catch an alley and isn't tall enuff to score with a bigman on him. Our team is already a good defensive team, and we already have better rebounding.</div> As I said, we're comparing Chuck Haye and Juwan Howard. When was the last time Howard had an alley-oop? And he doesn't finish around the basket any better than Hayes, that's for sure. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We don't NEED CHUCK HAYES. Your overhyping his little spurt he had last year, and downplaying Howard's ability to hit open shots.</div> I've recognized his ability to hit open shots. You, on the other hand, haven't recognized one positive thing Hayes does. Who's the one downplaying here? As far as his little spurt, yes ... what little I've seen of Hayes, I've liked a lot. And I wouldn't characterize solid play by a first year player over a 40 game period as a "little spurt" that doesn't mean anything. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Hitting open shots is CRUCIAL to this teams success, if not then being able to finish in the paint is. Hayes does niether.</div> And somehow, he shot well over 59% from the field last year, something Howard hasn't even come close to doing. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">11pts & 6rebs isn't good? I'd take that ANYDAY over 3.3pts Hayes is gonna give you. 3.3pts? C'mon now Charles Oakley can come back outta retirement and give you more than that. That's disgusting!! And ur tryna convince me he's BETTER than Juwan Howard lol...HELL NO</div> How much would Juwan have scored and rebounded in 13 minutes a game? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So ur implying that in 30mins a game Hayes is gonna give MORE than 11 & 6. Are you willing to stick by that statement? I sure hope so, because you'll just prove my point. </div> He'd easily give you more than 6 rebounds a game. That's obvious. He'd also give you more steals and blocks, and less turnovers. He'd score less, though more efficiently. He'd foul more. Beyond just those basic numbers, he'll do all the intangibles he's known for. All-around hustle, deflections, setting good screens. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He does suck. And if he didn't play alot last year, how are you so sure he's gonna be able to help the team win a championship?</div> How are you so sure he sucks, if in over 500 minutes of play last year in his rookie season he clearly didn't suck? What evidence there is, call it slight if you like, favors my position. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">All the stats you throw out, and then you just admit that you 1)haven't seen him play that much and 2)he actually DIDN'T play that much. Meaning that ur stats are decieving because it was in LIMITED time. Which brings up back to what I've been saying.</div> Do you see the world in black and white? Hayes played over 500 minutes. That's good enough to get a general assessment. The assessment would be even more accurate if he did it in 1000 minutes. If he did it in, say, 200 minutes, it would be much less accurate. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There is a REASON he played "THREE" times the minutes, because he's the BETTER player If Hayes was the wonderful player you make him to be, he'd be averaging 30mins a game, and Howard would be getting 10mins a game lol. But unfortunatley in this league the better players get more of the minutes. Ur stats can't overcome that either </div> Hayes was a rookie. He joined the team in the middle of the season. It's Van Gundy ... the guy who doesn't like playing young players. Unless he was the second coming of Charles Barkley, of course he's not going to get a ton of minutes. Duh. Hey, McGrady only played 18 minutes per game in 64 games his rookie year. So what if he had a strong PER as a rookie, he did it in limited minutes. He must not be very good. These are the type of absurd conclusions your logic leads to. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So Juwan Howard is below average? 11pts & 6rebs isn't decent numbers? Antione Walker averaged 12pts & 5rebs in 37mins last yr for Miami. Is Antione Walker below average also? But you see the Rockets winning a champinship with Chuck Hayes?I'm lost </div> You think PPG and RPG alone sum up how good a player is? The is what John Hollinger, the author of all the "advanced NBA stats" stuff at ESPN.com, had to say about Juwan in his NBA preview on ESPN Insider (here's his wikipediea entry, if you've never heard of him): <div class="quote_poster">Hollinger:</div><div class="quote_post">Battier also fits this team perfectly. He can play either forward spot, which gives Houston the option of playing him at power forward and benching the scandalously unproductive Juwan Howard.</div> Daryl Morey did a lecture at Rice University a couple weeks back where he talked a bit about his methods for analyzing the Rockets. Here's a snippet of that recap, as recalled by a poster on another board: <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Morey's Rice Lecture:</div><div class="quote_post"> He then did a stacked column graph showing how a roster should be built compared to how the Rockets have been built in the past, ranking each player in importance and efficiency and graphing them on minutes played. One thing I thought was interesting from the ’06 graph was that he had Swift and Hayes higher in the pecking order than Howard (even though Howard had more minutes). In the ’06-’07 graph, they had swapped Yao and McGrady’s spots so that Yao was first. </div> There you have it. Two opinions by guys who actually know what they're talking about when interpreting the numbers ... neither have a very high opinion of Juwan's performance, apparently. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">let me guess, and you do </div> You honestly think middle-aged Juwan is more athletic than Chuck Hayes? That's absurd. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well ya see in the game of basketball, when you have two superstars, teams tend to focus on them leaving other players open for shots. In that sense, you'd prolly wanna have players that can hit the open shots in which "compliment" the team better. </div> Why don't you actually think this through for a second. If you one of them is double teamed, and Hayes is the open guy, he'll dive to the basket like he did last year. And last year, it worked just fine. Rock4Life: "Yeah, but he didn't play with both of them on the court!" So what? How does having two superstars on the court all of a sudden make it a problem? I asked before, but you (typically) didn't respond. Perhaps I'm fooling myself to expect a response this time. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Diop can atleast run the court and finish on the break. </div> No better than Hayes. Hayes had a transition dunk in the last preseason game, in fact. And he did it numerous times last year. What the hell are you watching? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">For what team? The team where our starters were injured? You can't be talking about the championship team we have this year. </div> I see, so Hayes is better than Juwan only when the team isn't very good. But when the team is good, all of a sudden Juwan becomes better. That makes sense. Oh wait, no it doesn't. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Umair15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Say if we started Hayes at PF, he would help us a lot, way more than Howard, but I dont know why I just dont want Hayes to start as PF on a championship team. </div> Like Locke said, we're talking about backups. But what you said here doesn't make sense. If you think Hayes would help the team more as a starter than Juwan would as a starter, then how could you still prefer Juwan? This isn't rational. You want to sacrifice the good of the team just so the more experienced player "gets his due"?
^^ No what I said is that I would like Howard as a starter but Hayes as a bencher. There are some players who are better starters than bench and vice-versa. To me, Howard is a good starter, and Hayes as a good bencher. Hayes can give a spark off the bench and give us some energy, but he won't be as productive as Howard when starting.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">^^ No what I said is that I would like Howard as a starter but Hayes as a bencher. </div> Isn't this what you said? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Say if we started Hayes at PF, he would help us a lot, way more than Howard, </div>
I mean if we have Hayes as a starter, he would help us with everything. He is better than Howard. But I dont want him starting because he doesnt have enough experience to be starting on a championship team. I am saying that if Hayes started at PF, he would do good, but I want Hayes to come off the bench because to me, Hayes is a good bencher while I like seeing Howard as a starter. To me, Howard is a better starter, and I would rather have Howard starting on a championship team. I would give both Howard and Hayes the same number of minutes, but its just that, I would rather see Hayes come off the bench, and give us that spark. I just don't see Howard giving us a big boost that imo Hayes would give us. What I am trying to say is that Hayes is a good bencher and a starter, but I think that Howard is only a good starter. So I want Howard as starter so he can do his starting job, then for the half of the game, I would give Hayes sometime.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What I am trying to say is that Hayes is a good bencher and a starter, but I think that Howard is only a good starter. So I want Howard as starter so he can do his starting job, then for the half of the game, I would give Hayes sometime.</div> I see. Thanks for taking the time to explain that.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Reread what I said. Each sentence. You can't say he cost us a game when he was the one who put us in a position to win the game in the first place (by grabbing the offensive rebound and getting fouled).</div> It doesn't matter, his free throw cost us the game. If somebody can't finish at the basket, he's most likely gonna get fouled or blocked. The guy just doesn't bring enuff to the table, and I'll make sure I bring it up everytime he plays. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I've addressed this, but you won't respond to what I said. You just keep repeating yourself.</div> I have to repeat myself with you, because ur listening skills are that of a 1st grader. But anywayz, here are the numerous unanswered questions I've asked you. Do you see Chuck Hayes as the PF helping win a championship? Is Antione Walker below average too? (According to you he is, but he average the same Howard did last year) And do you see Hayes having BETTER numbers than 11pts & 6ebs in 30mins of play? If not then this argument is done. How much have you ACTUALLY seen Chuck Hayes play? Those are a few questions that you've been wiggling around since we started. Very easy questions, we'll see.......... <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">As I said, we're comparing Chuck Haye and Juwan Howard. When was the last time Howard had an alley-oop? And he doesn't finish around the basket any better than Hayes, that's for sure.</div> This confirms ur a 100% stats guy, but know absolutley ZERO about the actual game. Juwan Howard has alwayz had a jump hook and jumpshot. That's the staple of his game, how could you NOT know that? He might not catch many alleys, but given the ball in the paint he knows how to score. On the other hand, Chuck Hayes will get his ball SWATTED in the first row somewhere near Spike Lee most likely. He has no offensive ability whatsoever. Our defense is already good enuff, we're gonna need scoring from the PF position. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I've recognized his ability to hit open shots. You, on the other hand, haven't recognized one positive thing Hayes does. Who's the one downplaying here?</div> His positive is his rebounding. I've said this, but you over looked it like EVERYTHING else I've said. You obviously aren't paying attention to anything I'm saying, but yet question how much I've read ur posts . Ur being a hypocritical and boasting about it. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">As far as his little spurt, yes ... what little I've seen of Hayes, I've liked a lot. And I wouldn't characterize solid play by a first year player over a 40 game period as a "little spurt" that doesn't mean anything.</div> What LITTLE I've seen of Hayes? So you haven't seen the guy play, but ur making a case that he's BETTER than a veteran in Juwan Howard? How can you vouch for a guy you've seen very LITTLE of? Yet, I'm the one making "baseless" claims. I'm the who's seen BOTH play and it's no comparison. Hayes had a nice spurt, but he's NOT better than Howard. Not based on lame stats, but based on watching the game of basketball. The Rocket games are actually FUN to watch, you should try it sometime <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And somehow, he shot well over 59% from the field last year, something Howard hasn't even come close to doing.</div> In how many attempts? Ur the one purposley misleading by boasting about his 59fg% when you know DAMN well the guy doesn't take many shots lol. NOTE: The less attempts a player takes, the higher his FG% is gonna be. The MORE attempts a player takes, the LESS his FG% is gonna be. Common basketball knowledge right there. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How much would Juwan have scored and rebounded in 13 minutes a game?</div> Considerably less than what he's scoring now. BUT with Tmac & Yao on the court, he's the guy that should be out there for us. I'm confident Howard's gonna have a good year if we stay healthy. Tmac & Yao get doubled, Howard open for 15-20footer, SWISH!. It's really simple. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He'd easily give you more than 6 rebounds a game. That's obvious. He'd also give you more steals and blocks, and less turnovers. He'd score less, though more efficiently. He'd foul more.</div> Blocks? The guy isn't a shotblocker dude. And stop MISLEADING. He'd have less turnovers because he doesn't TOUCH the ball on offense. Meaning he'll be a crash dummy out there. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Beyond just those basic numbers, he'll do all the intangibles he's known for. All-around hustle, deflections, setting good screens.</div> Isn't that what Battier does? How many damn "hustle players" do we need? We need skilled players who can simply play basketball. You hustle all you want, but lack of talent is gonna catch up with you. Especially against the elite. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes was a rookie. He joined the team in the middle of the season. It's Van Gundy ... the guy who doesn't like playing young players. Unless he was the second coming of Charles Barkley, of course he's not going to get a ton of minutes. Duh.</div> So now it's JVG's fault Hayes can't score the basketball lol....No, if Hayes could have some type of offensive game he'd play more. That's what it is, you can't sugarcoat that one. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hey, McGrady only played 18 minutes per game in 64 games his rookie year. So what if he had a strong PER as a rookie, he did it in limited minutes. He must not be very good. These are the type of absurd conclusions your logic leads to.</div> Mcgrady came in as lottery pick, and actually HAD talent. Plus, what you DIDN'T mention is that he played with Vince Carter and that prolly took away from his mins. Chuck Hayes came from the NBDL and wasn't even drafted (from my knowledge). His max potential is just making the NBA team. Huge difference. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You think PPG and RPG alone sum up how good a player is? The is what John Hollinger, the author of all the "advanced NBA stats" stuff at ESPN.com, had to say about Juwan in his NBA preview on ESPN Insider (here's his wikipediea entry, if you've never heard of him):</div> We can go back and forth with comments from other ppl, I'm going off what I believe not some smuck or stat nerd. Juwan Howard still has some game left, I could careless what this guy has to say. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Daryl Morey did a lecture at Rice University a couple weeks back where he talked a bit about his methods for analyzing the Rockets. Here's a snippet of that recap, as recalled by a poster on another board:</div> huh? Sorry to say it again, but I'm just not interested in this. I analyze the Rockets the way I wanna do it, by watching them every nite. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> You honestly think middle-aged Juwan is more athletic than Chuck Hayes? That's absurd.</div> Yes, I do. Hayes uses he strength to compete, he's the farthest thing from an athlete ur gonna get in the NBA. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Why don't you actually think this through for a second. If you one of them is double teamed, and Hayes is the open guy, he'll dive to the basket like he did last year. And last year, it worked just fine.[/qoute] The guy is LIABILITY. Teams are gonna adjust to him diving, and it'll be harder and harder for him. Unless he develops a jump hook, which HIGHLY unlikely. [quote name='durvasa;697313']Rock4Life: "Yeah, but he didn't play with both of them on the court!" So what? How does having two superstars on the court all of a sudden make it a problem? I asked before, but you (typically) didn't respond. Perhaps I'm fooling myself to expect a response this time.</div> Ok...It's a HUGE problem, because the whole dynamics of the game are different. The stakes are higher, and the pressure gets tougher. Yao is a good rebounder, and so is our guards. But the ability to make defense's pay for doubling Yao & Tmac is very important. To me, it's the most important thing for our success. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> No better than Hayes. Hayes had a transition dunk in the last preseason game, in fact. And he did it numerous times last year. What the hell are you watching?</div> <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Like Locke said, we're talking about backups. But what you said here doesn't make sense. If you think Hayes would help the team more as a starter than Juwan would as a starter, then how could you still prefer Juwan? This isn't rational. You want to sacrifice the good of the team just so the more experienced player "gets his due"?</div> Even at backup Center of PF, he's still not the man for the job. I'd understand if this were the Hawks or TrailBlazer's, but this a CHAMPIONSHIP team. We can't afford to take ur advice and settle for mediocore.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It doesn't matter, his free throw cost us the game. If somebody can't finish at the basket, he's most likely gonna get fouled or blocked. The guy just doesn't bring enuff to the table, and I'll make sure I bring it up everytime he plays.</div> It doesn't matter that if he didn't grab the offensive rebound in the first place, we wouldn't have won the game anyways? Be sensible. If he can't finish at the basket, and he's such a liability, how is it that his scoring efficiency last year was so high? Reality doesn't match what you're saying. Hayes is never going to be great finisher in traffic, but he makes up for it by knowing how to get open and get quick layups around defenders. That's why he was such an efficient scorer last year. Only Yao and Dikembe had a higher true shooting% (point scored per scoring attempt). Juwan Howard's TS% for 0.499, which is near the bottom of the league at his position. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I have to repeat myself with you, because ur listening skills are that of a 1st grader. But anywayz, here are the numerous unanswered questions I've asked you.</div> Fine, I'll oblige. In turn, you should do this same. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you see Chuck Hayes as the PF helping win a championship?</div> Sure. Hayes can play significant minutes on a championship-caliber team with the right mi of players around him. Incidentally, it's possible Juwan could as well, again with the right mix of players. More importantly, I believe we have a better chance of a winning a championship with Hayes getting more minutes than Juwan, than vice-versa. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Is Antione Walker below average too? (According to you he is, but he average the same Howard did last year)</div> He's better than Juwan Howard. I'd say he's average, maybe a little above average depending on the team he's on. By that, I mean if I ranked all the PFs in the league I would want on my team, he'd probably be somewhere in the middle. He has terirble shot selection and is turnover prone, but his one-on-one scoring ability and ball-handling can be an asset. He's not a good rebounder or defender. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And do you see Hayes having BETTER numbers than 11pts & 6ebs in 30mins of play? If not then this argument is done.</div> Firstly, this is not a good question for reasons I already stated (and you didn't respond to). PPG and RPG, alone, does not sum up the contributions of a player. And I already did answer this question, Hayes would score less and rebound significantly more. But that alone doesn't really tell you much. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How much have you ACTUALLY seen Chuck Hayes play?</div> I watched virtually every game last year, 2 of the summer league games, and both preseason games. I might have missed a couple of the games he's played in with the Rockets. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Those are a few questions that you've been wiggling around since we started. Very easy questions, we'll see..........</div> Ok, now you go back through all my posts and respond to every point I made which you ignored. Alright? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This confirms ur a 100% stats guy, but know absolutley ZERO about the actual game. Juwan Howard has alwayz had a jump hook and jumpshot. That's the staple of his game, how could you NOT know that? He might not catch many alleys, but given the ball in the paint he knows how to score. On the other hand, Chuck Hayes will get his ball SWATTED in the first row somewhere near Spike Lee most likely. He has no offensive ability whatsoever. Our defense is already good enuff, we're gonna need scoring from the PF position. </div> Again, the logical leaps you make are dumbfounding. Just because Howard has a jump hook, that doesn't mean he's a good finisher around the basket. His conversion rate on layups right at the basket is pathetic. Look at the shot profiles of Chuck Hayes and Juwan Howard if you want proof. 32% of Juwan's field goal attempts were "inside" (close to the basket hooks, layups, dunks, tips, etc.). He shot 52% on them (which is a very poor percentage for a big) and was blocked 14% of the time. Hayes shot 87% of his field goal inside ... he shot 59% (average for a big) and was blocked 13% of the time. How do you explain that? (Imagining response: LMAO you and your pathetic statz who cares?? Hayes suks lol!) <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">His positive is his rebounding. I've said this, but you over looked it like EVERYTHING else I've said. You obviously aren't paying attention to anything I'm saying, but yet question how much I've read ur posts . Ur being a hypocritical and boasting about it. </div> You said Juwan Howard (who is well known to not be a good rebounder) is a better rebounder. I've overlooked "EVERYTHING" you said? Who the hell have I been responding to all this time? Are you insane? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What LITTLE I've seen of Hayes? So you haven't seen the guy play, but ur making a case that he's BETTER than a veteran in Juwan Howard? How can you vouch for a guy you've seen very LITTLE of? Yet, I'm the one making "baseless" claims. I'm the who's seen BOTH play and it's no comparison. Hayes had a nice spurt, but he's NOT better than Howard. Not based on lame stats, but based on watching the game of basketball. The Rocket games are actually FUN to watch, you should try it sometime </div> "What little I've seen of Hayes" ... relative to Juwan. Do I need to spell everything out for you? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In how many attempts? Ur the one purposley misleading by boasting about his 59fg% when you know DAMN well the guy doesn't take many shots lol. </div> He doesn't take many shots, but the shots he does take he's able to finish well on. So for you to say that he can't finish is inaccurate. He's not a good scorer, but in our system we don't really need another guy who can create and score on his own. For our role playing bigs, we should value efficiency and minimal mistakes over quantity and inefficiency. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">NOTE: The less attempts a player takes, the higher his FG% is gonna be. The MORE attempts a player takes, the LESS his FG% is gonna be. Common basketball knowledge right there. </div> This is correct, more or less. Next year, for the role the backup C/PF will have, he's not going to get many scoring attempts. Juwan averaged 13.5 fga per 40 minutes (compared to 7.9 for Hayes) last year. Next year, that will be significantly reduced. With a rate of, say, 10 FGA per 40 minutes for that position, which of those two would have a higher percentage? Recall Hayes shot 59% with a rate of 7.9 FGA/40min, and Howard shot 46% with a rate of 13.5 FGA/40min last year. Answer that question. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Considerably less than what he's scoring now. BUT with Tmac & Yao on the court, he's the guy that should be out there for us. I'm confident Howard's gonna have a good year if we stay healthy. Tmac & Yao get doubled, Howard open for 15-20footer, SWISH!. It's really simple. </div> So ... would Juwan have rebounded more than Hayes last year if he only played 13 minutes a game? Answer that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Blocks? The guy isn't a shotblocker dude.</div> Read his DraftExpress report, dude: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The beefy former Wildcat is also a rebounding machine who uses brawn to fight for loose balls and is effective at tipping the ball until he can get his mitts on it firmly. Hayes is also a surprisingly good shot-blocker for his size. In fact, Hayes left Kentucky in the top ten in rebounds and blocked shots.</div> I said Hayes would get more blocks than Juwan. That's trivial ... he already outblocked him last season playing 2000 less minutes (14 to 8)! Per 40 minutes, Hayes averaged 1.0 blocks, Juwan averaged 0.1 blocks. So, could we expect Hayes to block more shots than Juwan? Answer the question. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And stop MISLEADING. He'd have less turnovers because he doesn't TOUCH the ball on offense. Meaning he'll be a crash dummy out there. </div> Even taking touches into account, Hayes was better at taking care of the ball than Juwan. Hayes had a ridiculously lower turnover rate last season for his playing style. Hollinger uses the "turnover rate" statistic to evaluate a player's ability to take care of the ball relative to his activity on the offensive end with the ball. Last season, Hayes had a 8.0 turnover rate, and Juwan had an 11.2 turnover rate. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Isn't that what Battier does? How many damn "hustle players" do we need? We need skilled players who can simply play basketball.</div> We have far more "skilled players" who can put the ball in the basket than "hustle players". As I see it, Juwan's role on the team would be far more redundant than Chuck's. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You hustle all you want, but lack of talent is gonna catch up with you. Especially against the elite. </div> How do you define "talent"? Team defense, basketball IQ, rebounding, post defense, and setting effective screens are all important basketball skills. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So now it's JVG's fault Hayes can't score the basketball lol....No, if Hayes could have some type of offensive game he'd play more. That's what it is, you can't sugarcoat that one. </div> Are you seriously saying that Van Gundy doesn't have a bias towards older players? Yes or no. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Mcgrady came in as lottery pick, and actually HAD talent. Plus, what you DIDN'T mention is that he played with Vince Carter and that prolly took away from his mins. Chuck Hayes came from the NBDL and wasn't even drafted (from my knowledge). His max potential is just making the NBA team. Huge difference.</div> As I said, Hayes has talent (you just don't recognize it as such). Further, I weight performance more heavily than draft status. McGrady deserved more minutes after his rookie year not because he was a lottery picks; he deserved more minutes because he showed he was a good, productive player on the court. If McGrady wasn't drafted highly, he still would have deserved to play. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We can go back and forth with comments from other ppl, I'm going off what I believe not some smuck or stat nerd. Juwan Howard still has some game left, I could careless what this guy has to say. </div> The only reason I mentioned them is because you asked if Juwan's numbers (11 points, 6 rebounds) were good. You're the one claiming Juwan had good stats. It's not relevant that people who actually are knowledgable about quantitative analysis of basketball (and get paid lots of money for it by NBA teams and the media) are saying that Juwan's numbers aren't that good? Answer that question <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">huh? Sorry to say it again, but I'm just not interested in this. I analyze the Rockets the way I wanna do it, by watching them every nite. </div> No, you "analyzed" Juwan by saying his numbers are good. It so happens that the guy the Rockets are paying big bucks for to analyze the player's stats, and who will be the next GM of the team, disagrees with you. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, I do. Hayes uses he strength to compete, he's the farthest thing from an athlete ur gonna get in the NBA.</div> Athleticism doesn't include strength? Wow did he get all those steals and blocks without having athletic ability? How was he able to dunk the ball far more frequently than Juwan, without having athletic ability? Plus he's 10 years younger. Taking all of that together, and you still say Juwan is more athletic? If so, I would like to know how you define athleticism. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The guy is LIABILITY. Teams are gonna adjust to him diving, and it'll be harder and harder for him. Unless he develops a jump hook, which HIGHLY unlikely. </div> He already has a jump hook, actually. I thought you said you watched him play last year? And don't say he is a liability, when there's no proof of it yet. He clearly hasn't been a liability since he's been with the team. At least you can be honest about it and say you merely expect he'll be a liability. Expectation and fact are two different things. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok...It's a HUGE problem, because the whole dynamics of the game are different. The stakes are higher, and the pressure gets tougher. Yao is a good rebounder, and so is our guards. But the ability to make defense's pay for doubling Yao & Tmac is very important. To me, it's the most important thing for our success. </div> The dynamic of the game are different ... sure. But how do they change in such a way as to make Hayes's presence more of a liability then if he's just playing alongside one of them? That's what I want you to explain, because it's not evident to me at all. In fact, my intuition tells me the opposite would happen. With two stars on the court, the Rockets can better afford to have a player who doesn't score a lot then if only one (or none) of them were there. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Even at backup Center of PF, he's still not the man for the job. I'd understand if this were the Hawks or TrailBlazer's, but this a CHAMPIONSHIP team. </div> As a very good team with many potent offensive weapons already, I don't understand why you insist that we need another skilled scorer on the floor. Seems to me the pieces we should be looking for are glue-guys. Guys who play smart and can do "all the little things" which allow very good teams to become great teams. Alright, I tried my best to answer all your statements. And you can see, I asked many myself. Take your time, think it through, and I'll wait for your response.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> There is a REASON he played "THREE" times the minutes, because he's the BETTER player If Hayes was the wonderful player you make him to be, he'd be averaging 30mins a game, and Howard would be getting 10mins a game lol. But unfortunatley in this league the better players get more of the minutes. Ur stats can't overcome that either </div> I believe the reason JVG didn't give Hayes any minutes last season was because either CD or Les didn't want his value to increase. We obviously wanted to re-sign him (which we at a bargain). If Hayes got significant minutes last season, other teams would have noticed that he is a good player and would have offered him more than the chump change we threw at him. Especially when we had so many chances to play him with all the injuries. Well, that and the fouls trouble, but we still didn't play him as much as we could have. Even when we really needed rebounding when Yao was out, JVG would put in Bowen or just leave an exhausted Howard out there. Thats my 2 cents. We will just have to wait and see if he does get any minutes this season.
<div class="quote_poster">igotask8board Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Thats my 2 cents. We will just have to wait and see if he does get any minutes this season.</div> Van Gundy had some interesting things to say about Chuck Hayes in the Chronicle: What Chuck can do on offense: "You can't put guys out there ... that don't have to be guarded," Van Gundy said. "The area they have to be guarded when you put Chuck out there would be less. Certainly, I think Chuck has good hands and a good ability to finish around the basket. I think he has a chance to make people pay with second shots as well. He's a tremendous screener." So, can Chuck be a regular rotation player for this team? "The thing that is a challenge for Chuck is can he do it every night? I'm absolutely convinced off last year, if I don't play Chuck for two games and I insert him, he's going to play a great game. The challenge for him is can he be an everyday, every-play player in an every-night rotation for a good team in the NBA. Until he gets that chance, I don't know. But I have a good idea." JVG doesn't spell it out explicitly if Hayes is going to be in the regular rotation, but I think that last statement implies it. He says that Hayes hasn't had a chance to prove he can be an "everyday, every-play player" .. so he doesn't know for sure if he can handle it. For him to follow that with "But I have a good idea" bodes well for Chuck, I think. Now, the question is whether Chuck will be used primarily at PF or C. At PF, he gives the team better defense and rebounding, but the offense may not flow as well because of the lack of spacing. At C, he'll allow the team to play faster and better in transition, but it's unclear to what extent his lack of size could hurt the team.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> How are you so sure he sucks, if in over 500 minutes of play last year in his rookie season he clearly didn't suck? What evidence there is, call it slight if you like, favors my position.</div> I find it ironic that Rock4Life says you haven't seen Hayes play enough minutes to say he is good (overhyping his little spurts), and then go and say that he sucks. If all we have seen is good from Hayes how can you say he sucks. We have seen a lot of bad from Howard, so you can say he sucks without it being an issue to me. Sorry Rock4Life, I don't mean to gang up on you or whatever, but Juwan Howard is mediocre at best. He does get downplayed a lot around here, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a below average PF. I don't know how you can feel so strong that he deserves the backup PF spot when Battier starts. EDIT: Umair and Rock4life, please stop calling the Rockets a championship team. We have a lot to prove this season. Can we stay healthy? If so, can we make it past the 1st round? If so, can we make it past the 2nd? If all that happens, you can legitimately start calling the Rockets contendors. RE EDIT: I could have sworn I put Rock4life. That is very strange. Sorry about that Locke. You have to win a champsionship the season before (possibly 2 or 3 seasons before, as long as you contended the years between) in order to be called a championship team. Just a loose/quick explanation, don't make a big deal out of it.
Players that are considerably better: Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, Bosh, Brand, Dwight Howard, Zach Randolph, Gasol, Amare, Odom, Al Harrington, Rasheed Wallace, Okafor, Boozer, Antawn Jamison, Chris Webber, Drew Gooden, Kenyon Martin, Charlie Villaneuva, David West, Slightly better, Channing Frye (got same stats in 24 mpg), Antoine Walker (only 27 mpg and can hit the 3 and better scorer when needed), Shareef Abur Rahim more ppg, (27 mpg), better FG%, About the same: Mike Dunleavy Jr, Marvin Williams, PJ Brown Not better: Collins, Jefferson (only got 18 mpg), Wilcox (averaged like 18 mpg) So Juwan Howard is about 24th-27th/30 PFs. Where Chuck Hayes would be on the list, I'm guessing he would be below average as well.
Rock4life. I dont think there is one person who would agree with your assessment on how good Howard is or how poor Hayes is. Why do you think a lot of analysts seem to say Howard did poorly last year, while saying Hayes is playing impressively? If Juwan Howard played 13.4 minutes, his numbers would come to around 4.9 points a game and 2.8 rebounds compared to Hayes 3.7/4.5. 2.8 rebounds a game is very poor. Juwan Howard may make more points, but he is less efficient 46% compared to Hayes 56%. Your statement that less attempts = higher percentage is ludicrous. If someone plays one nba game and goes 2 for 5, does that mean his actual shooting percentage is much worst? Less attempts only mean that it is more statistically unreliable (smaller sample). No one is saying Hayes would be a superstar, but he is good at what he does.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Your statement that less attempts = higher percentage is ludicrous. If someone plays one nba game and goes 2 for 5, does that mean his actual shooting percentage is much worst? Less attempts only mean that it is more statistically unreliable (smaller sample). </div> That's only part of it. Yes, there will be less reliability just due to random variation with player who take less shots, but over the course of an entire season this tends to even out. What Rock4Life is talking about is that when a player has to take on a greater responsibility in the team's offense, he'll tend to be less efficient. It's not a hard-fast rule, and there are other factors to consider. But all else being equal, I think it's reasonable to expect that if a role player is put in a position to have to shoot more often, he'll be less efficient ... and vice versa. If that wasn't the case and there was no negative correlation between usage and efficiency then it would be straight forward what your offensive strategy should be -- constantly feed the player with highest FG% on the season the ball and let him shoot it.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">That's only part of it. Yes, there will be less reliability just due to random variation with player who take less shots, but over the course of an entire season this tends to even out. What Rock4Life is talking about is that when a player has to take on a greater responsibility in the team's offense, he'll tend to be less efficient. It's not a hard-fast rule, and there are other factors to consider. But all else being equal, I think it's reasonable to expect that if a role player is put in a position to have to shoot more often, he'll be less efficient ... and vice versa. If that wasn't the case and there was no negative correlation between usage and efficiency then it would be straight forward what your offensive strategy should be -- constantly feed the player with highest FG% on the season the ball and let him shoot it.</div> Ok nm i misunderstood. I thought he was referring to the number of attempts due to his limited games (which he did constantly refer to). I dont expect his offensive role to change much compared to last year. I dont think anyone expects or wants Hayes to shoot more often. If he continues to play the same role he did last year (with more minutes and more games), he would probably expect the same percentages, if not higher since both yao and mcgrady are healthy.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Umair and Locke, please stop calling the Rockets a championship team.</div>Sorry, did I miss the part where I called us a "championship team"?
Oh my god.. Dude, you have to have your hopes high. Rockets area team that has a chance to go deep in to the playoffs. We have finally established a championship team. And to have a chance to win a championship, we must have the best lineup possible.
