Technically any fan considers their team a championship team because that is the goal for any team for a new season. Isiah Thomas called the knicks contenders in the past month. That doesn't mean they are. All it means is that he has confidence in his team to succeed. No one thought phoenix would be this good 2 years ago, but they were championship contenders.
Even Matt Bullard was calling Hayes a hard worker who did the "dirty work" ... We've got tons of scoring on the floor, lets throw some defense and hustle out there?
I'm gonna stick by my final conclusion that Howard is a WAY better player than Hayes will ever be. You guys are overhyping a 6'6 Powerfoward/Center who won't average over 5pts a game this year. The last preseason game before the Bucks, Chuck Hayes started and scored 2pts in 25mins, which is actually not bad for him considering his incredible avg of 3pts a game for his career. Hardly a factor I have higher expectations for this team than most, so I apologize for my concerns. All I can say is the truth will come out when the season starts. I'm gonna stick by my assessment that Hayes doesn't deserve big minutes, and Howard is the better player. Thank you............. Yours Truly, Rock4Life
Does that mean you're not going to answer durvasa's questions again? btw, I agree about not calling the Rockets a championship team. Championship teams are ones that have gone all the way. At this point, Houston is still a contender.
Guys, don't get me wrong, but when I am saying championship team, I mean Rockets as a team who has a chance to win a championship. A championship contender. And what I said before is that since Rockets are a "championship team" (meaning that Rockets have a shot at it) they need a championship type lineup.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Guys, don't get me wrong, but when I am saying championship team, I mean Rockets as a team who has a chance to win a championship. A championship contender. And what I said before is that since Rockets are a "championship team" (meaning that Rockets have a shot at it) they need a championship type lineup.</div> No. Just no. You can't call them a championship team if what you really mean is contendors. Call them contendors and it doesn't bother me. But seriously everyone just stop with the championship team thing. If we go say 15-0 to open the season, I wont be as much of an ass about it if and when something like that does happen. They do have to win a championship to be called a championship team. Simple as that. Sorry to get all up tight Umair. Nothing personal, if you still want to call them a championship team, I wont say anything. And I meant Rock4life, not Locke. I don't know how that happened. <div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Does that mean you're not going to answer durvasa's questions again?</div> That made me laugh.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It doesn't matter that if he didn't grab the offensive rebound in the first place, we wouldn't have won the game anyways? Be sensible.</div> Sensible? The guy can't shoot, barely can jump, doesn't have post moves, can we atleast expect him to hit crucial free throws? Ur justifying ur support for Hayes by lowering his expectations. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If he can't finish at the basket, and he's such a liability, how is it that his scoring efficiency last year was so high? Reality doesn't match what you're saying.</div> Heres another point...if you take 2 or 3 shots a game, most of the time ur gonna have high fg%. U can pass for a smart guy, you outta all ppl should know this. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes is never going to be great finisher in traffic, but he makes up for it by knowing how to get open and get quick layups around defenders. That's why he was such an efficient scorer last year. Only Yao and Dikembe had a higher true shooting% (point scored per scoring attempt). Juwan Howard's TS% for 0.499, which is near the bottom of the league at his position.</div> AGAIN....his fg% isn't high because he's a good shooter, it's high because he isn't involved in the offense and only takes a couple shots a game. If I'm wrong, then why doesn't he get more shots? I'd be glad to see him throw up 9 or 10 bricks a game. But obcourse you'd make more excuses..... <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Fine, I'll oblige. In turn, you should do this same.</div> Let's get it crackin <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Look at the shot profiles of Chuck Hayes and Juwan Howard if you want proof. 32% of Juwan's field goal attempts were "inside" (close to the basket hooks, layups, dunks, tips, etc.). He shot 52% on them (which is a very poor percentage for a big) and was blocked 14% of the time. Hayes shot 87% of his field goal inside ... he shot 59% (average for a big) and was blocked 13% of the time. How do you explain that? (Imagining response: LMAO you and your pathetic statz who cares?? Hayes suks lol!)</div> We're goin circles here. Obcourse Howard's %'s aren't as good. Why? because he has more responsibilities on offense. Chuck Hayes barely touches the ball on offense, and doesn't take nearly the shots Howard takes. So it's only right his %'s are gonna be on point. As you stated Mutumbo has good fg% too, but he's not a threat on offense either. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You said Juwan Howard (who is well known to not be a good rebounder) is a better rebounder.</div> It's not that. Your makin it seem like he's a terrible rebounder, and he's not. He has more responsibilities than Hayes. If Howard's job was strictly to rebound, then I'm sure his rebound numbers would be better. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He doesn't take many shots, but the shots he does take he's able to finish well on. So for you to say that he can't finish is inaccurate. He's not a good scorer, but in our system we don't really need another guy who can create and score on his own. For our role playing bigs, we should value efficiency and minimal mistakes over quantity and inefficiency.</div> He can't finish, and that's VERY accurate. In a situation where a 7footer is guarding him, he's most likely gonna PASS the ball. Which technically means that he's not gonna even TAKE the shot. Pure basketball here fellas. And I disagree with the notion we don't need somebody who can score. It's vital that our PF's are able to finish on the weakside. That's where most of the possessions are gonna go when teams double teams. Teams are gonna eventually make Hayes shoot. We ALL know he doesn't wanna shoot, but the good teams are gonna make Hayes beat us. The last preseason game he started in, he scored a measily 2pts in 25mins. NOT EFFICIENT to me. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">This is correct, more or less. Next year, for the role the backup C/PF will have, he's not going to get many scoring attempts. Juwan averaged 13.5 fga per 40 minutes (compared to 7.9 for Hayes) last year. Next year, that will be significantly reduced. With a rate of, say, 10 FGA per 40 minutes for that position, which of those two would have a higher percentage? Recall Hayes shot 59% with a rate of 7.9 FGA/40min, and Howard shot 46% with a rate of 13.5 FGA/40min last year. Answer that question.</div> If they take the same amout of shots a game, I believe Howard's numbers will be more efficient and he'll be a more valuable asset to the team. Next question <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So ... would Juwan have rebounded more than Hayes last year if he only played 13 minutes a game? Answer that.</div> Yes, i definatley think Juwan Howards rebound numbers can go up. If his role on the team is reduced to JUST rebounding like Hayes, it's very possible. But he has ALOT more responsibilities on offense, so we might not get to see that. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So, could we expect Hayes to block more shots than Juwan? Answer the question.</div> I don't know. I don't see Hayes as a threat as blocks, niether Juwan Howard. But I'd go with Juwan for next season. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Even taking touches into account, Hayes was better at taking care of the ball than Juwan. Hayes had a ridiculously lower turnover rate last season for his playing style. Hollinger uses the "turnover rate" statistic to evaluate a player's ability to take care of the ball relative to his activity on the offensive end with the ball. Last season, Hayes had a 8.0 turnover rate, and Juwan had an 11.2 turnover rate.</div> Simple. He doesn't do anything with the ball too turn it over. He doesn't post up, doesn't face up, or doesn't have the lateral quickness to go past defenders. So by having no offensive responsibilities, his turnover rate is lower. But if you gave him Howards role on offense, where he gets post touches and is forced to score his efficiency will decrease drastically. You obcourse leave this out of ur stats...... <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">We have far more "skilled players" who can put the ball in the basket than "hustle players". As I see it, Juwan's role on the team would be far more redundant than Chuck's.</div> A team should have 1 hustle player, NOT 3 or 4. What ur sayin is we can afford to have no scoring from our PF position. That's ridiculous! Especially when I look at Dallas, Phoenix, San Antonio, Detroit and all the elite teams who are stacked with offensive options. Imagine if Phoenix traded some of their skilled players for a couple "Hustle" players from the NBDL. They'd get ridiculed. Why don't you hold the Rockets to the same standards? Ur willin to give a "Hustle" a player the majority of the minutes at PF which baffles me. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How do you define "talent"? Team defense, basketball IQ, rebounding, post defense, and setting effective screens are all important basketball skills.</div> Ur right. But for some reason you didn't mention not ONE offensive trait in ur definition of skill. U don't care about offense, which leads me to believe you have no clue what qualities a team needs to win a championship. Hayes can rebound, and plays good defense (for his size) but as far as overrall talent Howard's the better player. And I'm confident everything I mentioned will be proven this season. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Are you seriously saying that Van Gundy doesn't have a bias towards older players? Yes or no.</div> Somewhat. But he did play Head significant minutes last year. If Hayes is so good, why would he be bias towards him? He wasn't towards Head, and Head was a rookie also. Was he not? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">No, you "analyzed" Juwan by saying his numbers are good. It so happens that the guy the Rockets are paying big bucks for to analyze the player's stats, and who will be the next GM of the team, disagrees with you.</div> Ur point? He's a strictly stat guy. I'm sure there are former basketball players who'll disagree with every point he makes. I understand my opinions won't be populuar, but I DON'T CARE. I've been more right than wrong about the stuff I predicted. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Athleticism doesn't include strength?</div> Somewhat. But there are very skinny guys in the league who are CRAZY athletic. So strength is a smaller element. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wow did he get all those steals and blocks without having athletic ability? How was he able to dunk the ball far more frequently than Juwan, without having athletic ability? Plus he's 10 years younger. Taking all of that together, and you still say Juwan is more athletic?</div> Yes, Howard more athletic. U equivalate "Hustle plays" to bein athletic and that's a sign of not knowing the game of basketball. Hustle plays are created outta hustle not god given ability. Hustle is more of a mentality. You disagree? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If so, I would like to know how you define athleticism.</div> Being able to cover as much space as possible with less effort thru natural physical ability (running, jumping etc...). <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He already has a jump hook, actually. I thought you said you watched him play last year?</div> NO HE DOESN'T! He's Forest Gump on offense. Bowen is more reliable that Hayes on offfense, that's sayin ALOT. If I'm wrong, tell me how many jump hooks he took vs how many he made last season. U pride yourself on stats, so this should be right up ur alley. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And don't say he is a liability, when there's no proof of it yet. He clearly hasn't been a liability since he's been with the team. At least you can be honest about it and say you merely expect he'll be a liability. Expectation and fact are two different things.</div> He is very much a liability on offense. He can't score the basketball like most PF's. He'll NEVER be a scorer in this league, and he'll never be a threat on offense. All his role will ever be is too make hustle plays. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The dynamic of the game are different ... sure. But how do they change in such a way as to make Hayes's presence more of a liability then if he's just playing alongside one of them? That's what I want you to explain, because it's not evident to me at all. In fact, my intuition tells me the opposite would happen. With two stars on the court, the Rockets can better afford to have a player who doesn't score a lot then if only one (or none) of them were there.</div> Wrong...Given the dynamics have changed and the zones have been implimented, it's important that ur PF be able to hit open shots, post up, or catch alley hoops. Why? because defense's are allowed to keep players from standing under the goal waiting for the pass (like what Hayes's role is). It's harder to hide players who can't score, because teams can exploit that more in today's game. If you don't have any type of midrange game, ur gonna be exposed. But you have no problem with that. You don't care that the guy couldn't make a rock in the ocean. He's definatley a liability on offense. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">As a very good team with many potent offensive weapons already, I don't understand why you insist that we need another skilled scorer on the floor. Seems to me the pieces we should be looking for are glue-guys. Guys who play smart and can do "all the little things" which allow very good teams to become great teams.</div> Ur mentality is built for losing. Talent WINS. Especially in todays game. Look at Dallas. They already had tons of FIREPOWER. Then they go an add Anthony Johnson, Mo Ager, and Austin Croshere. Do you think they'd settle for a scrub like Chuck Hayes playin the majority of the mins at PF? HELL NO!! They keep getting MORE SCORING. That's the mentality the Rockets should have. But you guys wanna SETTLE for mediocrity. I would rather have as many scoring options as possible. Our defense was already good before Hayes. We need as many offensive options as possible. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Alright, I tried my best to answer all your statements. And you can see, I asked many myself. Take your time, think it through, and I'll wait for your response.</div> I answered ALL ur questions. Ur cop out that I haven't addressed you is nonsense. I'm ready for the season to start. I'm confident that what I said about Hayes & Howard will come to the light. I will be held responsible for everything I stated and will stand by it. Will you?
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Sensible? The guy can't shoot, barely can jump, doesn't have post moves, can we atleast expect him to hit crucial free throws? Ur justifying ur support for Hayes by lowering his expectations. </div> This doesn't address the point I made (for the second time). Hayes can't shoot, and he doesn't have very effective post moves. He's not a good free throw shooter, based on last season. I'm not denying any of those things. And they are irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that Hayes did not "cost us" that game. I'm not going to go over the reason why for a third time, since you've already ignored it twice. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Heres another point...if you take 2 or 3 shots a game, most of the time ur gonna have high fg%. U can pass for a smart guy, you outta all ppl should know this. AGAIN....his fg% isn't high because he's a good shooter, it's high because he isn't involved in the offense and only takes a couple shots a game. If I'm wrong, then why doesn't he get more shots? I'd be glad to see him throw up 9 or 10 bricks a game. But obcourse you'd make more excuses..... We're goin circles here. Obcourse Howard's %'s aren't as good. Why? because he has more responsibilities on offense. Chuck Hayes barely touches the ball on offense, and doesn't take nearly the shots Howard takes. So it's only right his %'s are gonna be on point. As you stated Mutumbo has good fg% too, but he's not a threat on offense either. </div> What I've been saying, and you were disputing, is that Hayes is a good finisher close to the basket from what I've seen so far. Not great, because of his physical limitations, but he's solid in that area. That's what I've observed, and apparently that's what the coach of the Rockets (who knows his strengths and weaknesses far better than either of us) has said: <div class="quote_poster">Quoting JVG:</div><div class="quote_post"> <font color=""Blue"">Certainly, I think Chuck has good hands and a good ability to finish around the basket.</font> </div> Ok? I'm not going to argue this point with you any further. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's not that. Your makin it seem like he's a terrible rebounder, and he's not. He has more responsibilities than Hayes. If Howard's job was strictly to rebound, then I'm sure his rebound numbers would be better. </div> Well, I disagree but it doesn't matter. It isn't his role, so he's not going to rebound as well. That's a fact. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He can't finish, and that's VERY accurate. In a situation where a 7footer is guarding him, he's most likely gonna PASS the ball.</div> Perhaps. Judging by Juwan's percentages, perhaps he'd be better served to pass the ball in that situation as well. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Which technically means that he's not gonna even TAKE the shot. Pure basketball here fellas. And I disagree with the notion we don't need somebody who can score. It's vital that our PF's are able to finish on the weakside. That's where most of the possessions are gonna go when teams double teams. </div> Can Juwan (with his midrange jumper) finish more effectively on the weakside than Chuck (who'd be looking for a catch and layup going to the basket)? We'll see when the season starts. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Teams are gonna eventually make Hayes shoot. We ALL know he doesn't wanna shoot, but the good teams are gonna make Hayes beat us. The last preseason game he started in, he scored a measily 2pts in 25mins. NOT EFFICIENT to me. </div> Numbers from one preseason game, let alone a couple don't really mean anything. Per 20 minutes of play, Chuck has averaged 4.6 points on 50% shooting and 4.9 rebounds. Per 20 minutes of play for Juwan, he's averaged 6.3 points on 44% shooting and 3.8 rebounds. Again, these numbers hardly mean anything, but is one clearly better than the other? No. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If they take the same amout of shots a game, I believe Howard's numbers will be more efficient and he'll be a more valuable asset to the team. Next question</div> Disagree. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, i definatley think Juwan Howards rebound numbers can go up. If his role on the team is reduced to JUST rebounding like Hayes, it's very possible. But he has ALOT more responsibilities on offense, so we might not get to see that. </div> Oh, really? That's convenient. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know. I don't see Hayes as a threat as blocks, niether Juwan Howard. But I'd go with Juwan for next season. </div> This statement right here proves you're dishonest and unwilling to concede any point even when you're quite obviously wrong. Hayes had a reputation as a shotblocker in college. Juwan didn't. Hayes nearly doubled Juwan's block total last season despite playing 2000 less minutes. In fact, if you total Juwan's blocks from the last two seasons, Hayes exceeded him last year. And you can't even admit that Hayes is a better shot-blocker? I'm done. Clearly, you're not interested in an honest discussion.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">This doesn't address the point I made (for the second time). Hayes can't shoot, and he doesn't have very effective post moves. He's not a good free throw shooter, based on last season. I'm not denying any of those things. And they are irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that Hayes did not "cost us" that game. I'm not going to go over the reason why for a third time, since you've already ignored it twice.</div> Oh I see. When boxed in a corner, you just conjure up any ridiculous statement like "This doesn't address my point". You had no point, you simply had a opinion. I disagree. Instead of acknowledge that, you utter out things like me ignoring you lol. When in reality you never really said anything in the first place lol. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What I've been saying, and you were disputing, is that Hayes is a good finisher close to the basket from what I've seen so far. Not great, because of his physical limitations, but he's solid in that area. That's what I've observed, and apparently that's what the coach of the Rockets (who knows his strengths and weaknesses far better than either of us) has said:</div> I disagree with the coach. Jus I disagreed with him signing Charlie Ward, Charles Oakley, Clarence Weatherspoon, Rod Strickland, trading Jim Jackson, not using Stro in open court, playin Bowen big mins in the playoffs, starting David Wesley etc.....I've disagreed with alot of things Van Gundy has done. This is no exception <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Ok? I'm not going to argue this point with you any further.</div> You can't. i don't blame you <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well, I disagree but it doesn't matter. It isn't his role, so he's not going to rebound as well. That's a fact.</div> It's not, because his role is larger. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Perhaps. Judging by Juwan's percentages, perhaps he'd be better served to pass the ball in that situation as well.</div> Maybe goin off last year. But going by his CAREER stats, combined with the open looks he's gonna get this year, Howard could be one the biggest keys to us winning this season. He's reliable as a spot up shooter on the weakside. Which is the main reason I endorse him.......... <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Can Juwan (with his midrange jumper) finish more effectively on the weakside than Chuck (who'd be looking for a catch and layup going to the basket)? We'll see when the season starts.</div> Yes, oh yes. Howard has made a career of weakside shooting. Zone defense's will force teams to shoot, standing under the basket will be highly difficult. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Numbers from one preseason game, let alone a couple don't really mean anything. Per 20 minutes of play, Chuck has averaged 4.6 points on 50% shooting and 4.9 rebounds. Per 20 minutes of play for Juwan, he's averaged 6.3 points on 44% shooting and 3.8 rebounds. Again, these numbers hardly mean anything, but is one clearly better than the other? No.</div> Good point.... <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">This statement right here proves you're dishonest and unwilling to concede any point even when you're quite obviously wrong. Hayes had a reputation as a shotblocker in college. Juwan didn't. Hayes nearly doubled Juwan's block total last season despite playing 2000 less minutes. In fact, if you total Juwan's blocks from the last two seasons, Hayes exceeded him last year. And you can't even admit that Hayes is a better shot-blocker?</div> Dishonest lol. Ur preference of words are very humorous. You can disgree with my opinion, but calling it "dishonest" makes you look unstable and implies that ur losing the debate. Try a different choice of words next time. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm done. Clearly, you're not interested in an honest discussion.</div> GREAT! I went back and answered ALL ur questions fairly & with straight answers. So the cop out that I avoid anybody's questions or comments has been proven FALSE. I'm gonna monitor both Howard & Hayes closely this season, and I'll make sure I give you a game 2 game update on who's doing better. Lookin foward to the season. GO ROCKETS!!
Looks like im gonna jump in now <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Oh I see. When boxed in a corner, you just conjure up any ridiculous statement like "This doesn't address my point". You had no point, you simply had a opinion. I disagree. Instead of acknowledge that, you utter out things like me ignoring you lol. When in reality you never really said anything in the first place lol.</div> As an observer, he never disagreed with the fact that hayes can not shoot nor did he ever say he had effective post moves. It wasnt his point. Power forwards arent limited to just scoring. I don't think there is anywhere in the argument that Chuck Hayes supporters argued this. They argued he was efficient (which stats can obviously prove). <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree with the coach. Jus I disagreed with him signing Charlie Ward, Charles Oakley, Clarence Weatherspoon, Rod Strickland, trading Jim Jackson, not using Stro in open court, playin Bowen big mins in the playoffs, starting David Wesley etc.....I've disagreed with alot of things Van Gundy has done. This is no exception </div> It isnt just the coach saying it, its a ton of other people. I don't think I've found one person (besides you), that says Chuck Hayes is a liability. If you can find any articles that prove otherwise, then I will concede this point. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's not, because his role is larger. </div> Such as? Defense? Rebounding? Screening? All of which Chuck Hayes is better at. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Maybe goin off last year. But going by his CAREER stats, combined with the open looks he's gonna get this year, Howard could be one the biggest keys to us winning this season. He's reliable as a spot up shooter on the weakside. Which is the main reason I endorse him.......... </div> Can't really argue this point. Not because you are right, but simply because everyone has their belief on what is considered the "biggest key" to winning. You believe its his ability to spot up shoot. Many others find Hayes rebounding (great at offensive rebounds), screening, and defence to be the key. You do not base things off of career stats, especially from a veteran. Checking the past few years is a much better indication on how he will do this year. Fact is Howard isnt as young as he used to be. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Yes, oh yes. Howard has made a career of weakside shooting. Zone defense's will force teams to shoot, standing under the basket will be highly difficult. </div> Last time I remember, many NBA teams don't implement zone defences that often. We have other much better shooters on the team. Reason why I value Hayes so highly is his ability to get offensive rebounds. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Dishonest lol. Ur preference of words are very humorous. You can disgree with my opinion, but calling it "dishonest" makes you look unstable and implies that ur losing the debate. Try a different choice of words next time. </div> It is dishonest if you deny certain qualities of a player. Tell me this, why do people praise him so much if hes a scrub? What do people see in him? <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> GREAT! I went back and answered ALL ur questions fairly & with straight answers. So the cop out that I avoid anybody's questions or comments has been proven FALSE. I'm gonna monitor both Howard & Hayes closely this season, and I'll make sure I give you a game 2 game update on who's doing better. Lookin foward to the season. GO ROCKETS!!</div> I dont see you addressing this point <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This statement right here proves you're dishonest and unwilling to concede any point even when you're quite obviously wrong. Hayes had a reputation as a shotblocker in college. Juwan didn't. Hayes nearly doubled Juwan's block total last season despite playing 2000 less minutes. In fact, if you total Juwan's blocks from the last two seasons, Hayes exceeded him last year. And you can't even admit that Hayes is a better shot-blocker?</div> Or are you too full of yourself to even concede a few points?
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4Life:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh I see. When boxed in a corner, you just conjure up any ridiculous statement like "This doesn't address my point". You had no point, you simply had a opinion. I disagree. Instead of acknowledge that, you utter out things like me ignoring you lol. When in reality you never really said anything in the first place lol.</div> Opinions are based on points. Well, informed opinions are based on points, not your opinions (see below). The "point" was it doesn't make sense to say a player cost his team the game when he was the one who put his team in a position to win (or tie the game) in the first place. Bogans missed the shot, but because Hayes has a nose for the ball he got hold of it and got fouled. That was a positive play. But then he misses the two free throws, which negates the positive play he just did. As I see it, the net result is he had no impact on that play, not that he "cost us" the game. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Dishonest lol. Ur preference of words are very humorous. You can disgree with my opinion, but calling it "dishonest" makes you look unstable and implies that ur losing the debate. Try a different choice of words next time. </div> So your opinion is that Howard is a better shotblocker than Hayes, even though he has less shot blocks (in a total of 4159 minutes) over the last two seasons then Hayes did (in 534 minutes) last year. I think it's funny when backed into a corner and clearly wrong now all of a sudden you have "opinions", whereas apparently before everthing coming out of your mouth before was "fact". There was two ways I could respond to that. Either you're an idiot, or you're stubborn to the point of dishonesty and you can't admit when you're wrong. I think I was being generous in going with the latter. I'm not going to play this game. Call it a "cop out" if you like, but it's a huge waste of time debating someone like you. I was a fool to think you would be capable of conceding even the most trivial points.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> There was two ways I could respond to that. Either you're an idiot, or you're stubborn to the point of dishonesty and you can't admit when you're wrong. I think I was being generous in going with the latter. I'm not going to play this game. Call it a "cop out" if you like, but it's a huge waste of time debating someone like you. I was a fool to think you would be capable of conceding even the most trivial points.</div> I actually reached this conclusion by page 2. Several times I had the urge to say his name fit his profile in that hes as stubborn and as stupid as a rock. Usually if someone can't concede a few points when faced with fact, thats when you know hes not worth arguing with. All in all this provided me with pretty good entertainment.
Like I said the season will speak for itself. While many of you have an opinion, I have mine. If Hayes is the player you hype him up to be, then it'll show in the season. If not, then we will see whatelse you guys can conjure up. The only way we can see who's really right is who becomes more of a factor in the season Howard or Hayes? So that's what it is. No more excuses and silly stats. The truth will come to the light, and I'm very confident.
If Howard does better than Hayes, then Durvasa has to keep a sig saying "JUWAN HOWARD > CHUCK HAYES" and vice versa..deal?
If Howard does better than Hayes, then Durvasa has to wear a sig saying "JUWAN HOWARD > CHUCK HAYES" and vice versa..deal?
<div class="quote_poster">Pakman Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If Howard does better than Hayes, then Durvasa has to wear a sig saying "JUWAN HOWARD > CHUCK HAYES" and vice versa..deal?</div> If Howard plays "better" than Hayes, I'll admit it. The difficult part would be coming up with a definition for "better" that's measurable and that we all agree with. Is it PER, +/- numbers, or maybe just plain old PPG and RPG? None of those tell the whole story. Right now, it appears that Howard and Hayes will split time, depending on the situation. If we need more offense, he'll go with Howard. If we want rebounding/defense, he'll probably go with Hayes (or Mutombo). I'm fairly positive Hayes will average more rebounds, steals, blocks, and certainly fouls per minute than Howard will. Hayes will likely shoot a higher percentage from the field, and probably a lower percentage from the line. He'll score maybe 30% less points per minute than Howard. That's all I can predict, as far as stats go. But even that's not enough to say who the more effective player is. Since both Hayes and Howard will be playing against similar strength opponents (backups), perhaps the +/- numbers can give some more information on who's playing better.
Wow, durvasa, you've got a LOT of confidence in Hayes just like Rock4Life has it in Howard... thats nice to see. Well, we'll decide it with the per thingy? And we should check the PER every month. And the sig will be really ugly, created by your own (pakman) on paint. It will say "Hayes > Howard" " I was wrong, Durvasa, I am sorry " <my prediction or "Howard > Hayes" "I was wrong, Rock4Life, I am sorry" How embarassing will that be? lol ... give me better ideas. I'm making this sound really stupid
<div class="quote_poster">Pakman Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> How embarassing will that be? lol ... give me better ideas. I'm making this sound really stupid</div> Why should I apologize if Howard plays better next season? I'm not guaranteeing that won't happen. I'm merely saying what I think is likely.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Why should I apologize if Howard plays better next season? I'm not guaranteeing that won't happen. I'm merely saying what I think is likely.</div> I was just over exaggerating on that one... But you two should do something of that sort.
<div class="quote_poster">Pakman Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, durvasa, you've got a LOT of confidence in Hayes just like Rock4Life has it in Howard... thats nice to see. Well, we'll decide it with the per thingy? And we should check the PER every month. And the sig will be really ugly, created by your own (pakman) on paint. It will say "Hayes > Howard" " I was wrong, Durvasa, I am sorry " <my prediction or "Howard > Hayes" "I was wrong, Rock4Life, I am sorry" How embarassing will that be? lol ... give me better ideas. I'm making this sound really stupid</div> I'm all for it. That's how confident I am that Hayes isn't better than Howard. So count me in.......
