Let me ask you this Rockforlife. As of this season so far, who is playing better? You don't even acknowledge Hayes defense. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> First off, what I mean by another is our defensive IS ALWAYZ GONNA BE GOOD. We have Battier who can defend, so can Tmac, so can Spanoulis, so can Snyder, Skip can also defend. All those players have proven they can defend, so WHY IN THE HELL would you get another defensive minded player? Defense is not gonna a be problem for this team. You act like offense is a BAD thing. Scoring is great and can actually make the game worth watching, ya know Battier is not a legit scoring option, he's more of a utility guy who does that dirty work. But NOT a scorer. If you think he's gonna be our main 3rd option, then ur not thinking championship. Obviously Bonzi hasn't done anything because he hasn't really played. He wasn't given a chance by JVG. </div> If you cant even admit that Hayes is playing better so far this season, then you are way too close minded.
Just thinking aloud here, but... how much of the anti-Hayes sentiment do you think has to do with his height? Every year come draft time, the media breaks down all the incoming players by height, weight, strengths and weaknesses. Chuck Hayes was known in his college years for his defense and his rebounding. But at 6'6, he isn't given the beenfit of the doubt that he can continue to be that productive at what he does. This may be an entirely separate issue from what's being discussed, but it discourages me that there's a persistent notion that a 6'9 forward must be more capable than a 6'6 one. If Charles Barkley were in college today, would he even get scouted?
<div class="quote_poster">Montaman Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> If Charles Barkley were in college today, would he even get scouted?</div> You might be right that scouts put more emphasis on physical attributes then they used to. But Barkley was very different. He was only 6'5 or 6'6, but he was a tremendous leaper and all around athlete -- Chuck has above average quickness for his position, but he's not nearly in the same class as an athlete. Plus Barkley had great offensive skills. I think he would have been a lottery pick today as well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4Life:</div><div class="quote_post">But ya see, he's gettin the bulk of his minutes with Yao and Tmac on the court. So OBCOURSE his +/- is gonna be higher. If he comes in with Mutumbo, Head, and Spanoulis then Hayes productivity drops dramatically. You know this.........</div> I decided to delve a little deeper into the +/- stats to satisfy you. My source. You claim that Chuck's +/- is higher because he's getting all that time with Tracy and Yao. And that he'd be worse than Juwan without them and if he was playing with the likes of Mutombo, Head, or Spanoulis instead. Here's the actual data: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>Chuck Juwan <br/> minTmPtsOppPts +/- minTmPts OppPts +/-<br/> ---------------------- ---------------------<br/>w/ Yao, w/ Mac 156319243+76 94 184 178+6<br/>w/ Yao, no Mac 20 37 21 +16 70 113 131-18<br/>no Yao, w/ Mac 74 145147-253 84106-22<br/>no Yao, no Mac 10 19 16 +324 3934 +5<br/><br/>w/ Mutombo 35 71 62 +946 7877 +1<br/>w/ Head74 150136+14 119200 218-18<br/>w/ Spanoulis 816 9+752 8086 -6<br/></div> For every combination, Chuck's +/- per minute is actually better than Juwan's. Doesn't matter if he's playing with Yao and T-Mac, without them, or any other players. When he's on the court, we're consistently better than we are when Juwan (or Padgett, or Novak) is on the court. Go figure.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">We have a breakthrough! At least you're not completely dillusional.</div> Dillusional? The guy has a few good games and now I'm dillusional? Um yea, ok. The REAL dillusional ppl are you and others in here that completley denounced Howard as a starter in this league. Some of you said he str8 up sux'd, but yet became quiet when Howard puts up a double-double. If Howard plays at this rate all season, then I win hands down. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You still don't recognize that Hayes is a vastly better defender than Juwan, even though we give up far fewer points when he's on the court. Beyond those intangibles, Hayes is actually scoring more per minute than Juwan so far this season (which was unexpected) and at a significantly higher efficiency (that's expected). Plus his rebounding rate is much higher, and he gets more blocks, steals, charges. The only area which Juwan provides a real advantage is you can count on him to hit his free throws. His jumper has been pitiful for the most part (he finally hit a few tonight), and he's not going to create good shots for you in post ups or ISOs, but on the rare occasions he gets to the line he'll nail them.</div> I think ur overhyping Hayes's defense and downplaying Howards defense. We're about 20 games in the season and ur already boasting and celebrating. All I'm gonna say at this point is we ALL can agree that Howard's value to this team is much greater, and he doesn't actually "suck" like all of you say he does. He wasn't used to comin off the bench so his numbers started off poor, but he's picked it up recently. I expect his numbers to slowly increase as the season carries. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Sorry, but overall Chuck's been outperforming Juwan so far. Even if you still want to maintain that Juwan will end up outperforming him by the end of the season, you have to admit that in the early going Chuck has been playing better for us.</div> It's a few games in the season and ur already having a parade in downtown Houston Calm down and just let the season play out, then do ur little vitcory trot . Realistically, Hayes has had more mins so his numbers are better. Plus, with Yao playin great it's opened up alot of opportunities. Especially with Hayes's man leaving him and doubling Yao, which ultimatley leaves Hayes under the rim waitin for the offensive rebound. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Let's be clear on what you say "is bound to happen." Eventually, Chuck Hayes is going to have a bad game? Duh, that's bound to happen with any player over the course of an entire season. You think Juwan hasn't had his share of games where he's missed several shots in a fourth quarter that cost his team the game? Those things happen.</div> So couldn't that apply to Juwan Howard earlier this season? Ur over there partying because of Hayes's numbers, but u completley ignore the fact Howard's role is something he's still gettin used too. Could Howard had had a bad stretch earlier, resulting in his poor productivity? Or are you purposley being a hypocryte? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So, be explicit. What exactly do you think will happen with Chuck? You think his rebounding rate will dip below Juwan's (if so, I'll tell you right now that ain't happening). You think his individual stats overall (e.g. PER) will fall below Juwan's? You think the +/- numbers for Chuck will fall below Juwan's eventually?</div> I think it'll come a time when teams will figure out he has no offense and they'll expose that. It's prolly gonna cost us some games. I don't think he'll hold that starting job all season. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Come on. Show some backbone and make a real prediction. Not this wishy-washy "Chuck is going to be exposed at some point in the season" stuff.</div> Me show some backbone? Ya'll are the ones backtrackin on ur positions: 1)Howard can't rebound 2)Howard sucks 3)Hayes worked on his free throw shooting 4)Hayes can finish better than Howard
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wrong about what? I STILL believe Howard is the better overrall player. Hayes had 13rebs, but he got his shot blocked about 3 or 4 times tonight. His lack of offense is going to become a burden on us at some point. On the other hand, Howard had a double-double which means he rebounded AND scored points. What a luxury</div> Wow double-double. Does hustling go on the stats? No. Dude accept it. You know Hayes is better so end this discussion. It doesnt matter if Howard had more points and had a double-double. Hayes had more rebounds and had 8 points while I believe Juwan Howard had 10. There isn't a big difference. What makes me like Hayes is the way he hustles for rebounds and loose balls which Howard doesnt.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Dillusional? The guy has a few good games and now I'm dillusional? Um yea, ok. The REAL dillusional ppl are you and others in here that completley denounced Howard as a starter in this league. Some of you said he str8 up sux'd, but yet became quiet when Howard puts up a double-double. If Howard plays at this rate all season, then I win hands down. </div> While I agreee, Howard has been playing well his last two games, you make it sound like he always played this well. Nobody was "quiet" about it. Everyone did acknowledge he played pretty well those two games. What strikes me as interesting was when you were quiet during the long stretch of games wehre JHo was crap and Hayes was superiour to Howard in every way(except free throws). <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> I think ur overhyping Hayes's defense and downplaying Howards defense. We're about 20 games in the season and ur already boasting and celebrating. All I'm gonna say at this point is we ALL can agree that Howard's value to this team is much greater, and he doesn't actually "suck" like all of you say he does. He wasn't used to comin off the bench so his numbers started off poor, but he's picked it up recently. I expect his numbers to slowly increase as the season carries. </div> The numbers clearly show that Hayes is a better defender. Have you even watched him? Maybe youa re blind. Your statement of all is contradictory. If we all agree that his value to the team is greater, then why would all of us say he sucks (which, you are exaggerating). <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> It's a few games in the season and ur already having a parade in downtown Houston Calm down and just let the season play out, then do ur little vitcory trot . Realistically, Hayes has had more mins so his numbers are better. Plus, with Yao playin great it's opened up alot of opportunities. Especially with Hayes's man leaving him and doubling Yao, which ultimatley leaves Hayes under the rim waitin for the offensive rebound. </div> You didnt seem to care about the minutes issue when we were comparing JHo to Hayes production last year. We arent looking at minutes, we are looking at per 48 minutes, which Hayes clearly is much better then JHo. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> So couldn't that apply to Juwan Howard earlier this season? Ur over there partying because of Hayes's numbers, but u completley ignore the fact Howard's role is something he's still gettin used too. Could Howard had had a bad stretch earlier, resulting in his poor productivity? Or are you purposley being a hypocryte? </div> He was referring to a few bad games, not a stretch of them (pretty much all of them except the last two). What role is that? You think Chuck Hayes didn't have to adjust to his new role? He came from a NBDL to a bench player with 13 mpg. This year hes getting over 20mpg. There is no adjustment for that? <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> I think it'll come a time when teams will figure out he has no offense and they'll expose that. It's prolly gonna cost us some games. I don't think he'll hold that starting job all season. </div> Um...by doing what, not guarding him? <font color=""Red"">********</font>. Hayes is an incredible finisher. Have you even seen any of his games? If they don't guard him, that allows him to get the pass from tmac or Yao to finish up underneath. Apparently getting offensive rebounds is not part of the offense as well? <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Me show some backbone? Ya'll are the ones backtrackin on ur positions: 1)Howard can't rebound 2)Howard sucks 3)Hayes worked on his free throw shooting 4)Hayes can finish better than Howard</div> 1) No one said he couldn't rebound. He is below average though as a power forward. He is also not as good as Hayes when rebouonding. 2) Durvasa never said howard sucks, just that he isn't as good as he used to be, and that Hayes is much better. 3) Just because you worked on it, doesnt mean it is necessarily better (Rafer ALston). 4) He can...Do you know what it even means to finish? Stats time: These are shots close to the bucket. Att. eFG% Ast'd Blk'd Pts J. Howard 26% .500 71% 14% 1.0 C. Hayes 80% .659 79% 7% 4.8 Draw your own conclusion who the better finisher is. Things that are obvious that you have yet to acknowledge: Hayes is a better defender Hayes is a better rebounder Hayes hustles more Some interesting quote I found from you a while back. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> 11pts & 6rebs isn't good? I'd take that ANYDAY over 3.3pts Hayes is gonna give you. 3.3pts? C'mon now Charles Oakley can come back outta retirement and give you more than that. That's disgusting!! And ur tryna convince me he's BETTER than Juwan Howard lol...HELL NO</div> Jho is averaging 3.7 points in 17 minutes, while the Hayes in 2005 was average 3.3 in 13 minutes in 2006-2006 season... Now im going to turn this statement around and see how you reply 3.7pts? C'mon now Charles Oakley can come back outta retirement and give you more than that. That's disgusting!! And ur tryna convince me he's BETTER than Chuck Hayes lol...HELL NO
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Dillusional? The guy has a few good games and now I'm dillusional? Um yea, ok. The REAL dillusional ppl are you and others in here that completley denounced Howard as a starter in this league. Some of you said he str8 up sux'd, but yet became quiet when Howard puts up a double-double. If Howard plays at this rate all season, then I win hands down. </div> I never said he straight up sucked. I said he wasn't as good as Chuck, as so far this season (not to mention last season) I'm being proved right. We'll see how this turns out, but I'm quite confident by the end of the season Chuck will have better numbers, and our point differential with him on the court will be far better compared to Juwan. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think ur overhyping Hayes's defense and downplaying Howards defense. We're about 20 games in the season and ur already boasting and celebrating.</div> Um, who's the one initiated the conversation in this thread? I've given Juwan a fair shake in previous games this year. Go through my post history. I've said "Juwan's playing well" in game threads. You haven't done that with Chuck Hayes. I've even critiqued Chuck's games. No way in hell you'd do that with Juwan. Juwan finally starts putting together a few good games, and you're jumping up and down. I, on the other hand, have always looked at the numbers over the full season. As far as the defense. On SportsRadio 610AM the Rockets beat writer said that NBA scouts he's spoken to consider Chuck Hayes to be one of the best defensive PFs in the league. And my own eyes tell me the same thing. Beyond that, the numbers don't lie. With Hayes on the court, we're giving up an unbelievably low 88 points per 100 possessions (easily the best on the team). With Juwan on the court, we're giving up 103.2 points per 100 possessions, which is well below our average. Same damn story last year. With Hayes, we gave up only 96 points per 100 possessions (amongst the league leaders for nay player), and with Juwan with gave up 106.3 points per 100 possession (again below average). Remember when you said all those numbers were a fluke ... hey, looks like the fluke continues! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">All I'm gonna say at this point is we ALL can agree that Howard's value to this team is much greater, and he doesn't actually "suck" like all of you say he does. He wasn't used to comin off the bench so his numbers started off poor, but he's picked it up recently. I expect his numbers to slowly increase as the season carries. </div> I think Howard can be a valuable component to the team, particularly if he plays the way he's played the last few games. But no way I'll sign on the notion he's more valuable than Chuck. And you're pretty much on your own island with that one. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's a few games in the season and ur already having a parade in downtown Houston Calm down and just let the season play out, then do ur little vitcory trot . </div> Do you not read? I said "in the early going". And you still can't admit that. 17 games, plus all the games last Spring, means nothing! Whatever. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Realistically, Hayes has had more mins so his numbers are better.</div> Oh, NOW you bring up the minutes played. Where was that in the summer when you compared Juwan's per game numbers to Chuck's and bashed me for instead looking at the per game numbes? And, per minute, Chuck's numbers are still better. He's averaging 5.2 points and 7.6 rebounds per 20 minutes played. Juwan is averaging 4.3 points and 5.8 rebounds per 20 minutes played. Guess that part just slipped your mind. You're really a piece of work. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Plus, with Yao playin great it's opened up alot of opportunities. Especially with Hayes's man leaving him and doubling Yao, which ultimatley leaves Hayes under the rim waitin for the offensive rebound. </div> Sure. And Yao+Hayes is more effective than Yao+Juwan. That's what the data shows after half a season last year and now the first 17 games of this season. That you continue to want to characterize that as a "few games" is just hilarious. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So couldn't that apply to Juwan Howard earlier this season? Ur over there partying because of Hayes's numbers, but u completley ignore the fact Howard's role is something he's still gettin used too. Could Howard had had a bad stretch earlier, resulting in his poor productivity? Or are you purposley being a hypocryte?</div> No, you're being hypocritical. I'm looking at what they do the entire season. I'm not focusing on a single game, or a handful of game. I'm tracking their progress from game 1 up to the present. Through 17 games, and hundreds of minutes played, Chuck has been far more effective. You, on the other hand, want to bring down Chuck if he happens to have a bad game some where during the course of the season, while ignoring the series of bad games Juwan has had to start this season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think it'll come a time when teams will figure out he has no offense and they'll expose that. It's prolly gonna cost us some games. I don't think he'll hold that starting job all season. </div> There you go again with these wishy washy "predictions'. "prolly gonna cost us some games"? What the hell does that mean? Hasn't T-Macs cruddy shooting in several games this year "cost us some games"? In 3 losses that Juwan has played in, he's averaged 20 mpg and 3 ppg while shooting 27% from the field. Does that qualify as costing us those games? See, this is what you do. You don't have the guts to make a real, concrete prediction so you come up with these ambiguous statements. It's almost comical. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Me show some backbone? Ya'll are the ones backtrackin on ur positions: 1)Howard can't rebound 2)Howard sucks 3)Hayes worked on his free throw shooting 4)Hayes can finish better than Howard</div> Juwan still doesn't rebound better than Chuck, even though early in the season he's rebounding at a rate far better than in any of his previous years. That's not "backtracking". I never made the blanket statement "Juwan sucks". Chuck did work on his free throw shooting ... that's a fact. I never said he'd be a good or even decent free throw shooter this year, however. And I'm not backtracking on the finishing part either. Right now, Chuck's at 57% (62% if you don't count tips) on inside shots and Juwan is at 58% on inside shots (unfortunately, Juwan also takes a ton of jumpers, largely unsuccessfuly). I'll predict, right now, that Chuck's FG% on inside shots will exceed Juwan's by the end of the season, in addition to the numerous other predictions I've made.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> I've always qualified my posts with "early in the season", or "so far this season". Maybe when all is said and done, you'll be right. Day by day, though, I'm more confident in my position. </div> Well if ur gonna wait till the end of the season, why are u bringing up stats 20 games in the season? And for the record, you've been boasting well before 20 games in the season. I simply stated that Howard doesn't suck, i didn't throw out any per48/+/-/x3>%5 stats like you love too do. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> I've given Juwan a fair shake in previous games this year. Go through my post history. I've said "Juwan's playing well" in game threads. You haven't done that with Chuck Hayes. I've even critiqued Chuck's games. No way in hell you'd do that with Juwan. Juwan finally starts putting together a few good games, and you're jumping up and down. I, on the other hand, have always looked at the numbers over the full season. </div> Wrong! I've stated Hayes is playin good right now, and even gave him kudos on his good rebounding. I've always had a problem with his lack of offense, which I STILL beleive is hurting us. You haven't read any of my posts. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> As far as the defense. On SportsRadio 610AM the Rockets beat writer said that NBA scouts he's spoken to consider Chuck Hayes to be one of the best defensive PFs in the league. And my own eyes tell me the same thing. Beyond that, the numbers don't lie. With Hayes on the court, we're giving up an unbelievably low 88 points per 100 possessions (easily the best on the team). With Juwan on the court, we're giving up 103.2 points per 100 possessions, which is well below our average. Same damn story last year. With Hayes, we gave up only 96 points per 100 possessions (amongst the league leaders for nay player), and with Juwan with gave up 106.3 points per 100 possession (again below average). Remember when you said all those numbers were a fluke ... hey, looks like the fluke continues! </div> The guy is rebounding and playin better than expected. So is Howard. We'll have too see how this plays out. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> Oh, NOW you bring up the minutes played. Where was that in the summer when you compared Juwan's per game numbers to Chuck's and bashed me for instead looking at the per game numbes? And, per minute, Chuck's numbers are still better. He's averaging 5.2 points and 7.6 rebounds per 20 minutes played. Juwan is averaging 4.3 points and 5.8 rebounds per 20 minutes played. Guess that part just slipped your mind. </div> Big difference. Howard has been a starter his whole life. He's become accustom to his role as a starter in this league. Coming off the bench was something that was suprise to him, and he really didn't get any run in the preseason. So his role coming off the bench is relatively new, i'm giving him time. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> Sure. And Yao+Hayes is more effective than Yao+Juwan. That's what the data shows after half a season last year and now the first 17 games of this season. That you continue to want to characterize that as a "few games" is just hilarious. </div> Well I guess ur right 1/4th way thru the season, maybe i shouldn't even watch the games anymore. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> No, you're being hypocritical. I'm looking at what they do the entire season. I'm not focusing on a single game, or a handful of game. I'm tracking their progress from game 1 up to the present. Through 17 games, and hundreds of minutes played, Chuck has been far more effective. You, on the other hand, want to bring down Chuck if he happens to have a bad game some where during the course of the season, while ignoring the series of bad games Juwan has had to start this season. </div> I'm not bringin him down. I just have to bring you guys back to reality. You pick and choose which stats you bring up on Hayes, while intenionally ignoring others, like the time he was blocked 4 or 5 times under the damn goal (in one game). When I reminded you it happened you quickly changed the subject. At this point, given the mins, Hayes has produced. When not really given consistent mins, Howard has also produced. I don't need per48/+/-/x3>%5 stats to prove that. I can just watch the game. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> There you go again with these wishy washy "predictions'. "prolly gonna cost us some games"? What the hell does that mean? Hasn't T-Macs cruddy shooting in several games this year "cost us some games"? In 3 losses that Juwan has played in, he's averaged 20 mpg and 3 ppg while shooting 27% from the field. Does that qualify as costing us those games? </div> Wishy Washy? Ur not even manly enuff to make a prediction, instead trying to balance urself in between both sides so u can seem "less wrong" as possible. I'm ALL ABOUT PREDICTIONS. Jus like I predicted Miami would win it last year WAY in the offseason. If anybody, ur the wishy washy one. The more you speak, the more you'd make a great politician <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> See, this is what you do. You don't have the guts to make a real, concrete prediction so you come up with these ambiguous statements. It's almost comical.</div> I make the BOLDEST claims on justbball!!! . That's why I'm the easiest target. For example, I stated that I didn't think Hayes would keep his starting job all season. That alone is bigger than anything you've EVER proposed. So have a tiny bit more respect before you make a statement like that. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> Chuck did work on his free throw shooting ... that's a fact. I never said he'd be a good or even decent free throw shooter this year, however. </div> My point exactly. I stated earlier in preseason how awful Hayes's free throw shooting was. Your rebuttal was "Well, um gosh, he's been workin very hard on his free throw shooting in the offseason". Now that he's shown that he still can't hit a free throw it's "I never said this or that". C'mon dude, I thought I was the wishy washy one. Hayes has NO OFFENSE whatsoever. Jus admit it. His defense is good at times, I'll admit that. But offensivley he's a airball waiting to happen. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">And I'm not backtracking on the finishing part either. Right now, Chuck's at 57% (62% if you don't count tips) on inside shots and Juwan is at 58% on inside shots (unfortunately, Juwan also takes a ton of jumpers, largely unsuccessfuly). I'll predict, right now, that Chuck's FG% on inside shots will exceed Juwan's by the end of the season, in addition to the numerous other predictions I've made.</div> LOL That's ur BOLD prediction you've been setting me up for? That's a girly prediction being that Hayes prolly isn't gonna take as many shots as Howard, AND he's prolly gonna get most his shots swatted in the cheap seats half the time he takes a inside shot (block shots don't count as an attempt). So his % on inside shots MIGHT be a little misleading. We'll just have to see how the season plays out.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4Life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Well if ur gonna wait till the end of the season, why are u bringing up stats 20 games in the season? And for the record, you've been boasting well before 20 games in the season. I simply stated that Howard doesn't suck, i didn't throw out any per48/+/-/x3>%5 stats like you love too do. </div> You didn't simply state that Howard doesn't suck. You implied that those who criticized Howard in the past thinks "he sucks" (whatever that means) and that they are now wrong. I'm looking at their progress throughout the season, which shows that my predictions are currently on track (and yours are not). If you can compare Yao's stats to Ben Wallace's early in the season, why can't I do the same between Juwan and Chuck? Be consistent. Furthermore, if you can decide that Howard doesn't "suck" after a few games, why can't I conclude that Chuck is better than Juwan after half a season last year and a few games this year? All I'm doing is provide some numbers to back that up. You don't seem to have any problem looking at stats when they support your position, I notice. I've always qualified my posts with "early in the season", or "so far this season". Maybe when all is said and done, you'll be right. Day by day, though, I'm more confident in my position. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wrong! I've stated Hayes is playin good right now, and even gave him kudos on his good rebounding. I've always had a problem with his lack of offense, which I STILL beleive is hurting us. You haven't read any of my posts. </div> You never said Hayes is playing good on your own. It's always been in response to someone else where you were forced to acknowledge the obvious. As for Chuck's lack of offense ... you say "is hurting us." Be honest: Is Juwan's 34% shooting from the field and 3.5 points in 18 MPG somehow not hurting us? <div class="quote_poster">Rock4Life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> The guy is rebounding and playin better than expected. So is Howard. We'll have too see how this plays out. </div> Chuck isn't rebounding better than I expected. And Juwan's offense is much worse than I (and I'm sure you) expected. But I agree, let's wait and see. In the mean time, I'll continue to track their progress. Ignore it, if you like. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4Life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Big difference. Howard has been a starter his whole life. He's become accustom to his role as a starter in this league. Coming off the bench was something that was suprise to him, and he really didn't get any run in the preseason. So his role coming off the bench is relatively new, i'm giving him time. </div> Fair enough. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4Life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Well I guess ur right 1/4th way thru the season, maybe i shouldn't even watch the games anymore. </div> Just acknowledge it's not a fluke, and Chuck is actually playing well. If you want to say he can't sustain it, fine. I disagree, but I don't have a problem with that if that's what you think. But it can't be considered a fluke anymore. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4Life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> I'm not bringin him down. I just have to bring you guys back to reality. You pick and choose which stats you bring up on Hayes, while intenionally ignoring others, like the time he was blocked 4 or 5 times under the damn goal (in one game). When I reminded you it happened you quickly changed the subject. At this point, given the mins, Hayes has produced. When not really given consistent mins, Howard has also produced. I don't need per48/+/-/x3>%5 stats to prove that. I can just watch the game. </div> I didn't change the subject. I showed that Juwan actually gets his shot blocked close to the basket about twice as often as Chuck. You want to focus on a few plays in a single game (and you accuse me of focusing on too small a sample? ). I looked at how often they got their shot blocked inside all of last year and all the games so far this year. And you don't need stats when the stats show your wrong. That's convenient. Instead, you can watch the games and just pretend you're right, without having to face cold, hard facts and acknowledge when you're wrong. That's the difference between us. If I end up being wrong, it's on the page. I'll be held accountable. But you don't actually say anything real ... "Chuck is going to suck eventually, just watch." That could mean anything. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4Life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Wishy Washy? Ur not even manly enuff to make a prediction, instead trying to balance urself in between both sides so u can seem "less wrong" as possible. I'm ALL ABOUT PREDICTIONS. Jus like I predicted Miami would win it last year WAY in the offseason. If anybody, ur the wishy washy one. The more you speak, the more you'd make a great politician </div> This is just flat out delusion. Name a single, verifiable prediction that you've made regarding Juwan and Chuck this season. The only one is that Juwan will eventually get back in the starting lineup. But that proves nothing regarding who's playing better (I'm sure you don't consider JVG keeping Chuck in the starting lineup right now as proof Chuck is better, right?). All my predictions (of which there are several) are concrete, verifiable, and describe performance for the entire season: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> <ul> [*] Hayes will average at least 2 more rebounds per 40 minutes played than Howard [*] Hayes's blocks/40minutes will at least double that of Howard's [*] Hayes will get more steals per 40 minutes played than Howard [*] Hayes will have a better TS% (scoring efficiency) [/list] And overall: <ul> [*] Hayes will end up with a higher PER than Howard [*] The Rockets, as a team, will play better defense (allow less points per possession) with Hayes on the floor than with Howard on the floor</div> [/list] <div class="quote_poster">Rock4Life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> I make the BOLDEST claims on justbball!!! . That's why I'm the easiest target. For example, I stated that I didn't think Hayes would keep his starting job all season. That alone is bigger than anything you've EVER proposed. So have a tiny bit more respect before you make a statement like that. </div>' BS, as I've explained above. Your position is totally safe, and you know it. If Hayes never loses his starting job, it's because JVG is an idiot. If he does lose his starting job, it's because Juwan is better. Gimme a break. You can't even commit yourself to make a single prediction regarding their peformance. Will Juwan shoot over 45% from the field by season's end? Are you at least confident enough in his offensive abilities to predict that? Will his rebounds per minute exceed Chuck's? When Juwan's playing with the starting group, will the point differential per minute eventually exceed Chuck's? Yes or no, answer those questions. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4Life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> My point exactly. I stated earlier in preseason how awful Hayes's free throw shooting was. Your rebuttal was "Well, um gosh, he's been workin very hard on his free throw shooting in the offseason". Now that he's shown that he still can't hit a free throw it's "I never said this or that".</div> So now you can look at what he's done early in the season? I thought that wasn't allowed? You're right, Chuck's not a good free throw shooter. I never said he was. I said there's a chance he'd improve because he's working on them, and that still could be the case. Players generally improve their free throw shooting over the years. That's a proven fact. Where's the backtracking? Where am I being "wishy washy"? Also, I remember that you're a fan of Antoine Walker's. Dude is shooting 38% from the free throw line this season and sucked his entire career. Just saying. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4Life:</div><div class="quote_post">C'mon dude, I thought I was the wishy washy one. Hayes has NO OFFENSE whatsoever. Jus admit it. His defense is good at times, I'll admit that. But offensivley he's a airball waiting to happen. </div> Another wishy washy statement. "NO OFFENSE whatsoever". He's scoring more points per minute than Juwan this year at a much higher percentage, plus getting more offensive rebounds. Yet he has "no offense." I'm not admitting that garbage, because it's not true. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4Life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> LOL That's ur BOLD prediction you've been setting me up for? That's a girly prediction being that Hayes prolly isn't gonna take as many shots as Howard, AND he's prolly gonna get most his shots swatted in the cheap seats half the time he takes a inside shot (block shots don't count as an attempt). So his % on inside shots MIGHT be a little misleading. We'll just have to see how the season plays out.</div> Blocked shots DO count as an attempt. How do you not know that? Stunning ignorance, right there. And I've made several predictions, which you conveniently ignore. And you haven't made a single prediction regarding their performance.
Both players have now played 300 minutes. Stat Comparison Update 12/13 Key <font size="1">TS%: scoring efficiency, proportional to points scored per scoring attempt (league average ~54%) PER: summarizes statistical production, per possession (league average 15) +/-: Rocket's point differential while player was on the court</font> <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>min MPG PTS REB AST TS% STL BLK TOPFPER +/-<br/>Chuck 373 21.99.8 13.01.0 53.5% 1.3 0.4 1.9 6.3 12.7+125<br/>Juwan 368 19.49.6 11.51.7 45.5% 0.7 0.1 1.8 3.8 10.3-6<br/></div> In the last weeks, Juwan has closed the statistical gap considerably. His shooting a lot better, and has raised his TS% to 45.5% on the season (which still sucks, but considering his output the last weeks should steadily improve). Juwan has gotten into a lot better offensive flow, and while his jumper is still hardly reliable he's doing a better job getting easy "garbage" buckets close to the basket by getting on the offensive glass. Juwan has been a very good rebounder for us lately, and on the season he's collecting 11.5 rebounds per 40 minutes (by comparison, his previous career high was only 9.3). He lacks quickness on the floor, so his reaction time on defense is often slow. But he's doing enough other good things right now to offset that. Chuck, conversely, has been bothered by foul trouble lately and hasn't gotten himself involved in the offense as he did earlier. He'll still make the hustle plays and play solid defense, but his individual numbers have dipped considerably. We'll see if this trend continues, or if he can bounce back. I made several predictions: <ul> [*] Hayes will average at least 2 more rebounds per 40 minutes played than Howard [*] Hayes's blocks/40minutes will at least double that of Howard's [*] Hayes will get more steals per 40 minutes played than Howard [*] Hayes will have a better TS% (scoring efficiency) [/list] And overall: <ul> [*] Hayes will end up with a higher PER than Howard [*] The Rockets, as a team, will play better defense (allow less points per possession) with Hayes on the floor than with Howard on the floor [/list] The first prediction is off right now. Hayes is averaging 13 boards per 40 minutes, and Juwan (with his recent play) is now averaging 11.5 boards per 40 minutes. The rest are still on track. Juwan's PER (summary of individual stats) has steadily increased with his improved play, and Chuck's has declined in the last 4 or 5 games, so that's another prediction that might be in danger.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I see you've decided to go back to look at per game stats, now that Juwan is playing more minutes again (of course, in November when Chuck was playing more minutes that would have been unfair). And, of course, we'll focus on the last 12 games when Juwan has finally started putting some good games together, and ignore the first month when Chuck was far more effective. Your double standard is so blatant, it's almost funny.</div> Again, ur misleading. I think we both can agree that Howard's lack of play earlier was strictly JVG's decision. But Hayes's lack of playin time is strictly on him, and I'm sure you know this. He's either in foul trouble or Howard is the better match up bein that he's hittin his jumpers now. Howard is simply playin better right now and even JVG can't deny this. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>mpg pts/25orb/25ast/25to/25 TS% drb/25stl/25blk/25<br/>Chuck 22.64.7 3.5 0.8 1.3 52.0% 4.3 0.5 0.1<br/>Juwan 27.18.3 1.4 0.6 1.3 55.6% 4.4 0.4 0.1<br/></div> Clearly, Juwan has been a better scorer for us in the last month. You attribute that to Juwan's increased minutes. That's part of it. But Chuck's lack of scoring I think can largely be attributed to not having McGrady in the lineup the last several games. On the season, per 40 minutes Hayes scores 10.5 points on 56.5% shooting with McGrady on the court (305 minutes). Juwan scores only 9.1 points on 41.2% shooting with McGrady on the court (209 minutes).</div> No, correction. His lack of offense comes back to the fact that he has none. Even with Mcgrady on the court, he's still a liability (like I previously stated). Everything I said at the beginning of the season is comin to the light, so this shouldn't be a surprise to you. His lack of offense will eventually cost him, which it has. Howard is a better player and I think that's finally sinking in. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">On offense, scoring is part of the picture. Note that Chuck's offensive rebounding rate has been 2.5 times that of Juwan's. With all the bricks our guards (read: Rafer Alston) have been throwing up, that's hugely important.</div> Yea, he's been rebounding pretty good. But that's about the only thing lol. However, Howard has been rebounding well too. He's been doing both good (scoring & rebounding) something we know has can't do. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">But what these box score numbers don't convey is Chuck's superior defense. This is partially captured in +/- numbers. We're +54 in the last 12 games with Chuck on the court. We're +10 in the last 12 with Juwan (which is a huge upgrade over what we were doing in the first month, or all of last year).</div> Well, Chuck's starting. If Howard were starting, who knows what the percentages would be. Howard comes in with the bench, and you know that. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You say that JVG has decided to go to Juwan more and more down the stretch. That's true. It's also worth mentioning that we've lost 5 of our last 7 games. If Juwan is a big reason why we're winning of late, it's at least equally true that he's a big reason we've been losing of late.</div> We've been losing because our playmaker is injured, don't sugarcoat <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">With Yao out of the lineup, we're going to need Juwan's scoring much more. I wouldn't be surprised if Juwan replaces Chuck in the starting lineup in some (if not most) games. That will (hopefully) give us some offensive firepower we wouldn't otherwise have, but I expect there will be a severe impact on our defense and rebounding as well.</div> Jus like said, now you finally agree Maybe our rebounding might go down a little, but we it's only right the better player gets the starting job. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">With Yao and McGrady back, I think there's no question that Chuck should be starting. That starting lineup was leading the entire league in point differential (by a wide margin, in fact). It would be senseless to break that up when it was working so well.</div> That starting lineup has Yao and Tracy in there too. Who's to say they won't be better with Howard. I'm glad ur coming to the light now. Juwan Howard is by far the better player overrall.
Ive watched Hayes his whole career, and his only problem is a midrange shot, his post game is better than howard, better rebounder, and defender. Chuck picks up dumb touch fould because of his size, howard dont pick up fouls because he has no defense. Hayes doesnt look to score which is different from not scoring at all, he could score 10ppg if he wanted to, but he would rather spend more time doing the little things to help the team win. Also Hayes takes alot of punishment because of his size, and runs out of energy because of it which is why he picks up fould and has to leave early. Howard is one note and if he isnt scoring then hes a liability, while hayes can do more than one thing. This is just my opinion though.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, ur misleading. I think we both can agree that Howard's lack of play earlier was strictly JVG's decision. But Hayes's lack of playin time is strictly on him, and I'm sure you know this. He's either in foul trouble or Howard is the better match up bein that he's hittin his jumpers now. Howard is simply playin better right now and even JVG can't deny this.</div> Well, I predicted you would fault Howard's poor play early on Van Gundy, and that's what you're doing. Is Juwan playing better right now? Going by the box score stats, in December he has been better. But, again, Chuck does a lot of things not captured by the stats that make him a valuable piece of the puzzle. The way you describe him, we should be getting blown out when he's on the court. Yet, amazingly, we've outscored the opponent by 54 points in December while he's on the court. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">No, correction. His lack of offense comes back to the fact that he has none. Even with Mcgrady on the court, he's still a liability (like I previously stated). Everything I said at the beginning of the season is comin to the light, so this shouldn't be a surprise to you. His lack of offense will eventually cost him, which it has. Howard is a better player and I think that's finally sinking in.</div> If you want to fault lack of playing time for hurting Juwan (I can go along with that, btw), then you should also recognize that Chuck has been hurt by McGrady's absence. We run a lot more pick and rolls when McGrady is on the court, and that frees up Chuck for a lot of easy baskets. Chuc actually scores at a higher rate than Juwan with McGrady on the court ,and he does so at a far higher FG% (as I said, 56% to 41%). You kind of glossed over that. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, Chuck's starting. If Howard were starting, who knows what the percentages would be. Howard comes in with the bench, and you know that.</div> Juwan isn't playing exclusively with bench players, and you know that. Using the data here, I determined plus/minus for the following lineups in the month of December. <font color=""Red""> Edit: I made some mistakes earlier calculating these. Correcting them.</font> <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>December:<br/><br/> lineup MinPtsScoredPtsAllowed+/- <br/>--------------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Alston-McGrady-Battier-Chuck-Yao54.812295 +27<br/>Alston-McGrady-Battier-Juwan-Yao14.946 30 +16<br/>Alston-Head-Battier-Chuck-Yao 107.7 215187+28<br/>Alston-Head-Battier-Juwan-Yao 53.6139122+17<br/></div> And how about since McGrady has been out (since 12/12)? <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/> lineup MinPtsScoredPtsAllowed+/- <br/>--------------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Alston-Head-Battier-Chuck-Yao 97.5200172+28<br/>Alston-Head-Battier-Juwan-Yao 35.990 91 -1<br/></div> I've looked at this data a little more in depth, and specifically I've looked at quarter by quarter splits. What I find is that as a team, even with our starters, we play much better in the first and third quarters than in the second and fourth quarters. It so happens that Chuck minutes with the starters come predominantly in the first and third quarters, while Juwan plays more minutes with the starters in the second and fourth quarters. The question is: do our starters play better in the first and third because they're more effective with Chuck, or is there some other factor involved? I believe it has partly to do with us being more effective with Chuck, but that's not the whole story. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> We've been losing because our playmaker is injured, don't sugarcoat </div> Alright, then we've been winning because of Yao. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> That starting lineup has Yao and Tracy in there too. Who's to say they won't be better with Howard. I'm glad ur coming to the light now. Juwan Howard is by far the better player overrall.</div> We've been better with Yao-Tracy-Chuck than we have been with Yao-Tracy-Juwan. Also, I'll just say that my argument to start Chuck (or give Chuck the lion share of the minutes) always was based partly on Yao and McGrady getting minutes as well. When those guys are on the court, we don't need a ton of scoring from our role players. Chuck compliments them much better because he does the "dirty work", he's more efficient, and he's a better defender. None of that has changed. If Yao and McGrady are both out, then I think there's merit to Juwan playing more. With both those guys playing, or even one of them playing, I'd prefer Chuck in there.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well, I predicted you would fault Howard's poor play early on Van Gundy, and that's what you're doing. Is Juwan playing better right now? Going by the box score stats, in December he has been better. But, again, Chuck does a lot of things not captured by the stats that make him a valuable piece of the puzzle. The way you describe him, we should be getting blown out when he's on the court. Yet, amazingly, we've outscored the opponent by 54 points in December while he's on the court. If you want to fault lack of playing time for hurting Juwan (I can go along with that, btw), then you should also recognize that Chuck has been hurt by McGrady's absence. We run a lot more pick and rolls when McGrady is on the court, and that frees up Chuck for a lot of easy baskets. Chuc actually scores at a higher rate than Juwan with McGrady on the court ,and he does so at a far higher FG% (as I said, 56% to 41%). You kind of glossed over that. Juwan isn't playing exclusively with bench players, and you know that. Using the data here, I determined plus/minus for the following lineups in the month of December. <font color=""Red""> Edit: I made some mistakes earlier calculating these. Correcting them.</font> <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>December:<br/><br/> lineup MinPtsScoredPtsAllowed+/- <br/>--------------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Alston-McGrady-Battier-Chuck-Yao54.812295 +27<br/>Alston-McGrady-Battier-Juwan-Yao14.946 30 +16<br/>Alston-Head-Battier-Chuck-Yao 107.7 215187+28<br/>Alston-Head-Battier-Juwan-Yao 53.6139122+17<br/></div> And how about since McGrady has been out (since 12/12)? <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/> lineup MinPtsScoredPtsAllowed+/- <br/>--------------------------------------------------------------------<br/>Alston-Head-Battier-Chuck-Yao 97.5200172+28<br/>Alston-Head-Battier-Juwan-Yao 35.990 91 -1<br/></div> I've looked at this data a little more in depth, and specifically I've looked at quarter by quarter splits. What I find is that as a team, even with our starters, we play much better in the first and third quarters than in the second and fourth quarters. It so happens that Chuck minutes with the starters come predominantly in the first and third quarters, while Juwan plays more minutes with the starters in the second and fourth quarters. The question is: do our starters play better in the first and third because they're more effective with Chuck, or is there some other factor involved? I believe it has partly to do with us being more effective with Chuck, but that's not the whole story. Alright, then we've been winning because of Yao. We've been better with Yao-Tracy-Chuck than we have been with Yao-Tracy-Juwan. Also, I'll just say that my argument to start Chuck (or give Chuck the lion share of the minutes) always was based partly on Yao and McGrady getting minutes as well. When those guys are on the court, we don't need a ton of scoring from our role players. Chuck compliments them much better because he does the "dirty work", he's more efficient, and he's a better defender. None of that has changed. If Yao and McGrady are both out, then I think there's merit to Juwan playing more. With both those guys playing, or even one of them playing, I'd prefer Chuck in there.</div> So ur sayin Hayes is stil a better overrall player than Juwan Howard? Yay or Nay?
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So ur sayin Hayes is stil a better overrall player than Juwan Howard? Yay or Nay?</div> I'll assume by "better overall player" you mean will help us win more than Juwan. Overall, with our roster mostly intact? Yay.
This argument is long going and will keep on going. I am going to put an end to it with this: Chuck Hayes- Good as a starter, strong defender, great hustler, dirty worker, great defense, good around the basket, good rebounder for his height. Works well as a starter. Juwan Howard- Good as a bencher, gives the explosiveness off the bench, decent hustling, good rebounder, good consistent jumper. Works well as a bencher. Both of them are pretty good. This is really undebatable to me. You can't compare them two. They are very different. They each do their own type of thing in a different way. They are real good in their ways. Hayes doesnt have a jumper, Howard does; Howard isn't great around the basket, Hayes is. They are kind of different. They both play real good. Hayes gives you good minutes as a starter, and Howard gives you good scoring off the bench. They both do good in their own ways. I dont know who is better. They are almost the same when you talk about "who is better."
<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">This argument is long going and will keep on going. I am going to put an end to it with this: Chuck Hayes- Good as a starter, strong defender, great hustler, dirty worker, great defense, good around the basket, good rebounder for his height. Works well as a starter.</div> LOL U said the same thing over & over. "Strong defender" & "Great Defense" is that same thing, so is "Great Hustler" & "Dirty Worker". The point is Hayes is a good rebounder and a above average defender (for his size). But has zero offense. You guys overhyped him early, but now ur backtrackin. Howard is a better overrall player, but i seriously dought you guys will EVER admit that. He's a good defender (without fouling), above average rebounder, good scorer, and high basketball IQ. The type of veteran that every team needs. <div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Both of them are pretty good. This is really undebatable to me. You can't compare them two. They are very different. They each do their own type of thing in a different way. They are real good in their ways. Hayes doesnt have a jumper, Howard does; Howard isn't great around the basket, Hayes is. They are kind of different. They both play real good. Hayes gives you good minutes as a starter, and Howard gives you good scoring off the bench. They both do good in their own ways. I dont know who is better. They are almost the same when you talk about "who is better."</div> Their nowhere near the same player. Hayes is a rebounder, but he's nowhere near the overrall player Howard is. All the hate Howard recieved early and now he's doin everything I stated he would do. It's no comarison
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Howard is a better overrall player, but i seriously dought you guys will EVER admit that. He's a good defender (without fouling), above average rebounder, good scorer, and high basketball IQ. The type of veteran that every team needs. </div> Tell me where in that post did I ever say Howard or Hayes is better than the other? <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Their nowhere near the same player. Hayes is a rebounder, but he's nowhere near the overrall player Howard is. All the hate Howard recieved early and now he's doin everything I stated he would do. It's no comarison</div> Hayes not having the touch that Howard has makes up for his finish around the basket which Howard doesn't really have. If you're talking about me, then you're wrong because I never "hated" Howard except in the beginning of the year I favored Howard over Hayes. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The point is Hayes is a good rebounder and a above average defender (for his size). But has zero offense. You guys overhyped him early, but now ur backtrackin.</div> Hayes has zero offense? Are you on drugs? He is the best player around the basket for the Rockets. He has zero offense? See this is the difference, I could just come out of nowhere and say Howard has no defense. This is the thing, Howard is more of an offensive threat and Hayes is more of a defensive threat. Both of them are different but are almost the same when it comes down to comparisons. Who over hyped him? I never ever Hayes is way too good for Howard.
