Ok, I was checking out some pre-season box scores and I got curious with the Memphis-Detroit game and saw that Memphis won. So I thought, how did Rudy Gay do? I checked the box score and his stats weren't pretty bad at all. He showed he could do so much. Aside from scoring 21 pts on 7/12 shooting, he had 3 blocks and 3 stls too I think. I know, I know, its preseason and Shane Battier is a better fit than he would have been, Shane has a defensive presence bla bla. but I have a feeling he can be a Tayshaun type of player which is actually good for defense..I was shocked during the draft-day trade but was instantly assured as I learned more about Battier, but I can't help feeling like crap thinking he's gonna be a star with the Grizzlies. I keep imagining how good he wouldn've been in a Rockets uniform. sob. Please re-assure me on the Battier trade. Pleaseee.
The only positive thing I can say is that I believe the Rockets will do pretty well this year, better than the Grizzlies. As for the trade, I think it was horrible. I said this when the trade happened, but I think that in the worst case scenario, Gay will be as above average as Battier. In the best case scenario, Gay will be as good as T-Mac. I would compare Gay to Josh Smith right now. They are both 6-9 with great athleticsm, which they use pretty effectively on the defensive end. So far, Gay has 6 steals and 5 blocks in 3 preseason games. Also, let's not forget that we did not only lose Gay, but we also traded Swift. As much as Swift is hated by some fans, I actually liked him, and believe that we could have gotten something more for the #8 pick and Swift. And before people start talking about Battier's intangibles, defense, and winning mentality, let me state some things I've said before. Battier and the Grizzlies have been SWEPT out of the playoffs the last three years. He did not pick up his game in the playoffs to help his team win. Nowtizki averaged over 30 ppg in their series. He did not help USA team win gold. I've said this a couple times now, but Battier is the most overated underated player in the league. People seem to love to quote all the cliche phrases that they hear and read. The truth is, Batter has not been a "winner" since his days at Duke. I always champion for the underdogs and the underappreciated, but saying that Battier is more valuable than Gay and Swift is ridiculous. I think we lost more than what we gained. With all that said, I think the Rockets are going to be a very good team this year. The roster is shaping up to be pretty good and deep. Recent acquisitions have made the Rockets situation much better, but the trade was still horrible in my opinion. Just be happy that the Rockets will be very good this year. Hopefully.
<div class="quote_poster">evolidiot Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The only positive thing I can say is that I believe the Rockets will do pretty well this year, better than the Grizzlies. As for the trade, I think it was horrible. I said this when the trade happened, but I think that in the worst case scenario, Gay will be as above average as Battier. In the best case scenario, Gay will be as good as T-Mac. I would compare Gay to Josh Smith right now. They are both 6-9 with great athleticsm, which they use pretty effectively on the defensive end. So far, Gay has 6 steals and 5 blocks in 3 preseason games. Also, let's not forget that we did not only lose Gay, but we also traded Swift. As much as Swift is hated by some fans, I actually liked him, and believe that we could have gotten something more for the #8 pick and Swift. And before people start talking about Battier's intangibles, defense, and winning mentality, let me state some things I've said before. Battier and the Grizzlies have been SWEPT out of the playoffs the last three years. He did not pick up his game in the playoffs to help his team win. Nowtizki averaged over 30 ppg in their series. He did not help USA team win gold. I've said this a couple times now, but Battier is the most overated underated player in the league. I always champion for the underdogs and the underappreciated, but saying that Battier is more valuable than Gay and Swift is ridiculous. I think we lost more than what we gained. With all that said, I think the Rockets are going to be a very good team this year. The roster is shaping up to be pretty good and deep. Recent acquisitions have made the Rockets situation much better, but the trade was still horrible in my opinion. Just be happy that the Rockets will be very good this year. Hopefully.</div> Let's not forget you also had the cap flexibility to sign Bonzi Wells because you traded Swift. Trading Rudy Gay for a veteran role player made sense. The Rockets aren't rebuilding, they already have two franchise players and they need to make moves to position themselves for a championship. At best Rudy Gay is going to take 3 years to have any impact on the court. Wasting 3 years of TMac and Yao Ming's prime for a player who may or may not pan out doesn't make sense. It makes more sense to surround TMac and Yao with solid role players who can put this team over the hump. Shane Battier is one of those players, and takes a load of defensive pressure off of TMac. Plus Battier doesn't hurt your team, because he can make open shots. The Grizzlies didn't advance in the playoffs, because they faced teams better than them. Their playoff teams weren't constructed for post season success. The 12-man rotation made it difficult for the players to mesh, and other teams exploited the rosters in the post season. Plus they never had a true point guard to manage a game. Battier had nothing to do with Team USA failing to win the gold. When he was on the court the team generally outplayed the competition. The team lost, because they didn't have any shooters.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Let's not forget you also had the cap flexibility to sign Bonzi Wells because you traded Swift. Trading Rudy Gay for a veteran role player made sense. The Rockets aren't rebuilding, they already have two franchise players and they need to make moves to position themselves for a championship. At best Rudy Gay is going to take 3 years to have any impact on the court. Wasting 3 years of TMac and Yao Ming's prime for a player who may or may not pan out doesn't make sense. It makes more sense to surround TMac and Yao with solid role players who can put this team over the hump. Shane Battier is one of those players, and takes a load of defensive pressure off of TMac. Plus Battier doesn't hurt your team, because he can make open shots. The Grizzlies didn't advance in the playoffs, because they faced teams better than them. Their playoff teams weren't constructed for post season success. The 12-man rotation made it difficult for the players to mesh, and other teams exploited the rosters in the post season. Plus they never had a true point guard to manage a game. Battier had nothing to do with Team USA failing to win the gold. When he was on the court the team generally outplayed the competition. The team lost, because they didn't have any shooters.</div> I'm not an expert on teh salary cap, but I'm pretty sure the Rockets could have signed Bonzi whether or not Swift was traded. Bonzi was signed using part of the MLE, which is available to all teams over the cap. And my point is that they could have gotten more for the Gay and Swift. They could have at least wrangled a draft pick out of the Grizzlies. I personally do not think Gay will take 3 years to pan out. From his play in the preseason so far, Gay has proven to be pretty decent defensive player. Battier's defense is almost as overated as Gay's defense is underated. I believe Gay can make open shots, and he also has the ability to drive to the basket. I would actually prefer a player who cuts to the basket rather than stand at the 3 pt line when Yao is doubled. And I only bring up Battier's postseason failure with the Grizzlies and the USA team because I have heard people refer to him as a proven winner. I was just trying to make a point that he has not won anything significant. I tried to empahsize that the Grizzlies have won 0 postseason games. I would hope that his intangibles and defense could have helped the grizzlies won at least one game, but no. His defense is overated, and intangibles do not mean very much if you can not contribute on the court. I thought he was supposed to do whatever the team needs to win. In the playoffs last year, not only was his defense on Nowitzki bad, but his offensive numbers dropped even lower than what they already were. I like Battier, but I that does not change my opinion that the trade was horrible.
<div class="quote_poster">evolidiot Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> I personally do not think Gay will take 3 years to pan out. From his play in the preseason so far, Gay has proven to be pretty decent defensive player. Battier's defense is almost as overated as Gay's defense is underated. I believe Gay can make open shots, and he also has the ability to drive to the basket. I would actually prefer a player who cuts to the basket rather than stand at the 3 pt line when Yao is doubled. </div> Gay could end up being a very good player, but I agree with Shape. I think it will take at least a couple years for him to be what we call a "good player". He'll probably be very inefficient on the offensive end, be turnover-prone, and make a lot of mistakes in terms of team defense. That's all pretty common for rookies, particularly those without much college experience. The Rockets would not be a better team this year, and probably next year, if they had Gay on the team instead of Battier. It's also worth mentioning that if the Rockets didn't go ahead with the trade for Battier, then we would not have taken Gay, but rather Sefalosha.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> It's also worth mentioning that if the Rockets didn't go ahead with the trade for Battier, then we would not have taken Gay, but rather Sefalosha.</div> That is enough reassurance for me. 7 teams had already passed on him, and we would have been the 8th. Who would you rather have, Sefalosha and Swift or Battier? OK, if that doesn't help then put it this way. All we traded was our 8th pick in a mediocre at best draft and Stromile Swift for Shane Battier. We got to burn Swifts lengthly contract, and use his minutes for a more efficient PF Chuck Hayes. --- I to think Battier is a little overrated around here. Disregarding the fact that this is a Rockets forum, his man on man D is not as great as some people are making it out to be. However, what your going to like about him is he is a pest on D and you will see more ball deflections and steals when Battier is in the line up.
<div class="quote_poster">igotask8board Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> I to think Battier is a little overrated around here. Disregarding the fact that this is a Rockets forum, his man on man D is not as great as some people are making it out to be. However, what your going to like about him is he is a pest on D and you will see more ball deflections and steals when Battier is in the line up.</div> I thought Battier did a pretty good job defending Joe Johnson in the last game. He's also often matched up against forwards/bigs who post up, so you're not going to see him defending out on the perimeter that much compared to a Bruce Bowen. He is an excellent help defender, that's for sure.
remember that rudy gay is memphis' go to guy in this preseason. He attempted probably 16 shots (12 FGA + 8 FTA), which is the second most in the team. If he's in houston, JVG will not allow him to shoot that many, considering he's only the third option behind yao and mcgrady. Therefore his stats wont be as pretty as in that game. The best example is Stro last year. As i recall in 3 preseason games, he put up great statistics (i think around 17 ppg, and almost 10 rpg), he also blocked duncan twice. But how was he in the regular season game? nowhere near his preseason performance. This may or may not happen to rudy gay too.
Look at the positive side. We want wins right now right? We will get them right now instead of waiting 3 years. And also, we got Bonzi and Battier. If Houston doesn't get to the playoffs, then I am gonna be mad. But it already happened. We did what we thought was right, and needed at that time. Lets forget the past and look ahead. Even though Gay might be a superstar in 3-4 years, we dont wanna wait that long. We wanna win now, not in 3-4 years. So what we did was good for now. Rudy Gay might turn out to be good, but we cant wait for him to develop his game. So getting Battier was good for now.
<div class="quote_poster">evolidiot Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not an expert on teh salary cap, but I'm pretty sure the Rockets could have signed Bonzi whether or not Swift was traded. Bonzi was signed using part of the MLE, which is available to all teams over the cap. And my point is that they could have gotten more for the Gay and Swift. They could have at least wrangled a draft pick out of the Grizzlies. I personally do not think Gay will take 3 years to pan out. From his play in the preseason so far, Gay has proven to be pretty decent defensive player. Battier's defense is almost as overated as Gay's defense is underated. I believe Gay can make open shots, and he also has the ability to drive to the basket. I would actually prefer a player who cuts to the basket rather than stand at the 3 pt line when Yao is doubled. And I only bring up Battier's postseason failure with the Grizzlies and the USA team because I have heard people refer to him as a proven winner. I was just trying to make a point that he has not won anything significant. I tried to empahsize that the Grizzlies have won 0 postseason games. I would hope that his intangibles and defense could have helped the grizzlies won at least one game, but no. His defense is overated, and intangibles do not mean very much if you can not contribute on the court. I thought he was supposed to do whatever the team needs to win. In the playoffs last year, not only was his defense on Nowitzki bad, but his offensive numbers dropped even lower than what they already were. I like Battier, but I that does not change my opinion that the trade was horrible.</div> Rudy Gay's rookie contract would have cost you a little over $2M, which is the money the Rockets spent on Bonzi. The Rockets sent out $7M in contracts and only took back $5M for Battier, so they had an extra $2M to play around with in the offseason. I'm not sure if you followed Rudy Gay's collegiate career, but he was one of the most inconsistent player's in the NCAA. The reason he went from being a lock for #1 overall, was his lack of passion for basketball. One day he looks great, the next day he disappears. A player with his approach takes at least 3 years to develop in the NBA. With Battier you know exactly what you're getting each game. He might not have the upside of a Rudy Gay, but the Rockets don't need another superstar with TMac and Yao on the roster. They just need solid role players who will give consistent effort each night. The Grizzlies not winning a post season game, is not a reflection on Battier, it's a reflection of the team as a whole. If anything the blame should be pointed at Pau Gasol, because he's their franchise player. Also the teams (Spurs, Mavs) the Grizzlies faced went on to make the NBA Finals.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Rudy Gay's rookie contract would have cost you a little over $2M, which is the money the Rockets spent on Bonzi. The Rockets sent out $7M in contracts and only took back $5M for Battier, so they had an extra $2M to play around with in the offseason. </div> Even if we did have the 2 mil, Bonzi would have most likely chosen to sign somewhere esle with Gay here. He would have seen the SG position as way too crowded. He wouldn't want to sign with a team that couldn't not give him enough minutes to showcase his talent.
<div class="quote_poster">igotask8board Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Even if we did have the 2 mil, Bonzi would have most likely chosen to sign somewhere esle with Gay here. He would have seen the SG position as way too crowded. He wouldn't want to sign with a team that couldn't not give him enough minutes to showcase his talent.</div> Possibly, and he might not have considered the Rockets a legit championship contender either.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Rudy Gay's rookie contract would have cost you a little over $2M, which is the money the Rockets spent on Bonzi. The Rockets sent out $7M in contracts and only took back $5M for Battier, so they had an extra $2M to play around with in the offseason. I'm not sure if you followed Rudy Gay's collegiate career, but he was one of the most inconsistent player's in the NCAA. The reason he went from being a lock for #1 overall, was his lack of passion for basketball. One day he looks great, the next day he disappears. A player with his approach takes at least 3 years to develop in the NBA. With Battier you know exactly what you're getting each game. He might not have the upside of a Rudy Gay, but the Rockets don't need another superstar with TMac and Yao on the roster. They just need solid role players who will give consistent effort each night. The Grizzlies not winning a post season game, is not a reflection on Battier, it's a reflection of the team as a whole. If anything the blame should be pointed at Pau Gasol, because he's their franchise player. Also the teams (Spurs, Mavs) the Grizzlies faced went on to make the NBA Finals.</div> I'm not exactly sure what point you are making about the cap, but he Rockets had a MLE, which they used a part of to sign Bonzi, to play around with whether the trade happened or not. The trade did not give the Rockets salary cap space. They are still over the limit. The only financial benefit from the trade was that their payroll decreased by $2 mil. It did not create salary cap space. Gay may have been inconsistent in college, but who's to say he will be that way in the NBA. I think the same criticism was place on Charlie Villaneuava las year, and I think he turned out pretty well. Their situation are very similiar. Both are from UCONN, and both were considered potential number 1 picks at some point. I believe that if given the oppurtunity, Gay will prove his critics wrong just like Villaneuava. I think attitude problems also caused Amare Stoudemire to fall in the draft also. The draft is not a science. Just because a player falls in the draft does not mean he will be a bust. Just like a player drafted number one is not guaranteed to be a franchise player (ex. Joe Smith, Olowakandi, Kwame) Speaking of inconsistency, how consistent is Battier. Looking at his game log from last year, he does not exactly give the same amount of production each game. His points fluctuated from 1 to 24. He has as many single-digit scoring games as he does double-digit games. The same inconsistency can be said for his rebounding. But I'm sure you're talking about his effort. Effort is good and all, but you still have to produce. Consistent effort, but inconsistent tangible production. Maybe he does whatever is neccessary to help his team win? Just like in the playoffs last year where his numbers all went DOWN. Maybe he hustled and took a few charges, but what has he got to show for it. ZERO postseason wins. I just want to dispel the myth that Battier is a "winner". Yeah, I know basketball is a team sport, and one individual is almost never responsible for a win or loss. The Grizzlies have faced some tough teams, but if Battier was such a "winner", he should have found a way to help his team win at least one game. I don't expect Memphis to win those 3 series, but they should have won at least one game. Because, you know, they have the great proven winner in Battier. Just like we don't need Battier to contribute a lot of points, we would not need Gay to produce a lot either. His offense seems to need work, but from the preseason, he seems to be able to use his athletiscm to play defense pretty effectively. Gay would not be a star in his first year, just like Battier is not a star. Like I said, I believe that Gay will be like Josh Smith early on. Limited offense but able to use his athletiscm to block shots and get steals. Similiar to Mcgrady when he first entered the league. With all that said, I like Battier. He seems to be a very intelligent and nice man, who should be respected for the effort he puts out on the basketball court. Every team should have a player like him on their team, but I believe the cost to acquire him was just a little too much. DISCLAIMER- I am a UCONN alum so I am a little bias towards products of the UCONN program.
Rudy Gay is the leading player in Memphis. memphis has played their rookies and young guys alot in preseason games in the past 4 years. Hakim Warrick led all rookies in Summer league play in points and rebounds and in preseason, but they rarely play him in the regular season. Mike miller and Eddie Jones will take time away from Rudy gay.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not exactly sure what point you are making about the cap, but he Rockets had a MLE, which they used a part of to sign Bonzi, to play around with whether the trade happened or not. The trade did not give the Rockets salary cap space. They are still over the limit. The only financial benefit from the trade was that their payroll decreased by $2 mil. It did not create salary cap space.</div> The salary cap is a 'soft' cap, if the Rockets spend anymore money they will have to pay luxury tax of $1.50 for every dollar over. This is where the $2Million cushion comes into play. Charlie Villanueva's impressive season got him where exactly? The Raptors gave up on him after just one season, because of his complacency and poor work ethic. I wouldn't even compare the two, because they have different issues. Rudy Gay is a hard worker, he just doesn't have the motivation to play at a high level every game. Will he be the same in the NBA, we don't know yet, but usually these character traits don't change and I doubt JVG would have the patience to help Rudy develop. Battier was a +22.1 last year in the playoffs, and a +8.8 during the regular season. When he was off the court, the Grizzles scored 28 less points in the playoff series!
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The salary cap is a 'soft' cap, if the Rockets spend anymore money they will have to pay luxury tax of $1.50 for every dollar over. This is where the $2Million cushion comes into play. Charlie Villanueva's impressive season got him where exactly? The Raptors gave up on him after just one season, because of his complacency and poor work ethic.</div> I think Charlie V trade wasn't very good for the Raptors. He will be a good player imo. (assuming no injuries) I don't think they gave up on him, I think Colangelo promised Bargani that he would draft him. (who is tall enough to defend centers) I think Colangelo knew he was going to get a solid player in Garbajosa (who plays PF/SF like CV31) Colangelo needed a pg who could run an offense. I still don't think we got equal value for Charlie V though.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The salary cap is a 'soft' cap, if the Rockets spend anymore money they will have to pay luxury tax of $1.50 for every dollar over. This is where the $2Million cushion comes into play. Charlie Villanueva's impressive season got him where exactly? The Raptors gave up on him after just one season, because of his complacency and poor work ethic. I wouldn't even compare the two, because they have different issues. Rudy Gay is a hard worker, he just doesn't have the motivation to play at a high level every game. Will he be the same in the NBA, we don't know yet, but usually these character traits don't change and I doubt JVG would have the patience to help Rudy develop. Battier was a +22.1 last year in the playoffs, and a +8.8 during the regular season. When he was off the court, the Grizzles scored 28 less points in the playoff series!</div> I just looked up the Rockets payroll and what the luxury tax threshold, and they would have been able to absorb that two million without crossing the threshold. http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/houston.htm They don't have all the salaries for every player, but after the roster is finalized, the payroll will probably be around $62-63 million. The luxury tax threshold this year is $65.42 million. If Gay was signed, the threshold would not be crossed, but if it did, it would be by just a very minimal amount. My point is that the Rocket's should have gotten something more for the trade. If they were concern with crossing the threshold this year, they should've demanded a future draft pick. I believe the Villanueva trade had more to do with a change in philosophy than anything else. With the Coglangelo on board, the Raptors wanted to speed up their game with TJ Ford. The only players the Raptors have that would gain any interest were Bosh, Bargnani, Peterson, and Villaneuva. Villaneuva was expendable because they have Bosh and Bargnani. And all those stats about Battier does not mean that much to me. Stats are sometimes misleading. Why do you think the Grizzlies have been SWEPT out of the playoffs three years in a row. Battier being a proven winner is just a myth. I would feel a little differently if they had won at least one game, but no. ZERO wins. You can give me all the stats you want, but I still don't think he makes a significant impact on how a game turns out. I don't either one of us is gong to change the other's opinion about the trade. We're arguing over spilt milk, and I really don't care about the subject anymore. To cheer up Eduardo, I believe the Rockets will be a good team this year despite this trade. It will have to do more with Tracy and Yao's health and more depth than it does with the addition of Battier.
<div class="quote_poster">evolidiot Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> And all those stats about Battier does not mean that much to me. Stats are sometimes misleading. Why do you think the Grizzlies have been SWEPT out of the playoffs three years in a row. Battier being a proven winner is just a myth. I would feel a little differently if they had won at least one game, but no. ZERO wins. You can give me all the stats you want, but I still don't think he makes a significant impact on how a game turns out. </div> You know, the "ZERO wins" thing is also a stat. It seems to me that you just think that stat overrides any others.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You know, the "ZERO wins" thing is also a stat. It seems to me that you just think that stat overrides any others.</div> When it comes to players like Battier, yes, I do believe wins are the ultimate barometer for the player. He supposedly does whatever is needed to help his team win. Whether the team needs points, rebounds, steals, or a charge, he'll get it for you. Considering that he has very mediocre tangible production, it is wise to see whether his team wins when it counts. It turns out that he really does not make a significant impact on the game. If he did, he would've found a way to help his team win at least one postseason game.
