<div class="quote_poster">evolidiot Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">When it comes to players like Battier, yes, I do believe wins are the ultimate barometer for the player. He supposedly does whatever is needed to help his team win. Whether the team needs points, rebounds, steals, or a charge, he'll get it for you. Considering that he has very mediocre tangible production, it is wise to see whether his team wins when it counts. It turns out that he really does not make a significant impact on the game. If he did, he would've found a way to help his team win at least one postseason game.</div> By that logic, Pau Gasol (and the rest of the players on the Grizzlies) also do not have a significant impact on the game. No one is arguing that Battier is a superstar. He's a very good player. He's not going to win playoff games against far superior teams all by himself.
I haven't read the entire thread, but I'll add just one thing... Battier may not be a winner in the NBA by some people's criteria, but he's experienced. He's gotten to the playoffs and lost, but he's been there. So have Yao, Tracy, Bonzi, Rafer, Juwan, and Dikembe. The general trend in the NBA is that you have to lose before you can win. It's very rare that a team adds a stud rookie and suddenly tear through the playoffs. Wade lost for 2 years before breaking through for the ring, and all signs point to him being FAR better than Gay. Same goes for LeBron, who didn't even make the playoffs his first 2 years, and just last year blew a lead against the Pistons (much like TMac). When you bring in a rookie and expect him to be a big part of your team, you might be fun to watch and he might put up nice numbers, but you don't generally don't make a push for the Finals, which is what the Rockets are trying to do THIS YEAR. Make no mistake about that. Even if added to an experienced Rockets team, I doubt Gay would be effective when it counted. It's a rite of passage that is rarely avoided. But back to Battier... He only has to be one of the best 7 players on the team among Yao, Tracy, Bonzi, Rafer, Kirk, Juwan, and Luther. Not to mention TWO of those guys are superstars. He'll have far less to do with the statistical outcome in Rockets games than he will in the way he leads and hustles. In Memphis he was a role player who in reality needed to do more than play a role (because the closest thing they had to a superstar was/is Gasol). If he does the same things here that he did there, I very much doubt he will continue to lose in the playoffs.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">By that logic, Pau Gasol (and the rest of the players on the Grizzlies) also do not have a significant impact on the game. No one is arguing that Battier is a superstar. He's a very good player. He's not going to win playoff games against far superior teams all by himself.</div> You seem to have misunderstood what I said. I think wins are the best measuring stick for players like Battier (those players that have very mediocre stats). If not by wins, how are you supose to judge him by? His stats are that of a mediocre bench player. At least for Gasol, you can see what he actually contributes a lot to what the outcome of the game will be. And yes, I understand that basketball is a team sport where usually not one person is solely responsible for a win or lose. But at some point, you also have to admit that Battier can't win a game for you. In summary, Battier will never lose a game for you, and will definitely help you win a game, but will never be a big factor in winning the game. I hope that last sentence makes sense.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In summary, Battier will never lose a game for you, and will definitely help you win a game, but will never be a big factor in winning the game. I hope that last sentence makes sense.</div> Isn't this exactly what the Rockets are better off with? They need players who won't lose games for them and not another future star.
Tmac can't win a game for you, Yao can't win a game for you. Every player that plays a minute has an impact on the game, every rebound, staying in front of your man, all has an impact. All these combined impacts throughout the 48 minutes of the game determine the outcome. Tmac alone doesn't "win games", it requires contributions from every player on the floor. Battier does not have the scoring capability of Tmac, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't have a significant impact.
<div class="quote_poster">SkiptoMyLue11 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Tmac can't win a game for you, Yao can't win a game for you. Every player that plays a minute has an impact on the game, every rebound, staying in front of your man, all has an impact. All these combined impacts throughout the 48 minutes of the game determine the outcome. Tmac alone doesn't "win games", it requires contributions from every player on the floor. Battier does not have the scoring capability of Tmac, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't have a significant impact.</div> I don't think I am doing a good job of making my point. Let me try something else. The following is my assumption of what would happen if with the subtraction of certain players. Rockets minus Mcgrady- 20 less wins Rockets minus Yao- 15 less wins Rockets minus Bonzi- 5 less wins Rockets minus Battier- 1 or 2 less wins I believe that T-Mac and Yao can win games for you. Yeah, they need a team around them, but they are players that teams need more than the player needs the team. They play a huge part in the outcome of games. Without Battier, I believe the Rockets would do just fine. There are bench players that could replace his production on the court. Maybe not his intangilbles, but those only take you so far and are a little overated.
I don't know how you compiled that stat, but I guess in 2003-04 when Orlando won 21 games. without Tracy McGrady they would have won 1 game? if you put Tracy McGrady on the Suns would they win 74 games? Anyway, I think under your system you are underestimating Battier's value. If Battier is worth 1-2 wins, what is Dikembe? .25- .5 wins? What is Alston? etc.
<div class="quote_poster">SkiptoMyLue11 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know how you compiled that stat, but I guess in 2003-04 when Orlando won 21 games. without Tracy McGrady they would have won 1 game? if you put Tracy McGrady on the Suns would they win 74 games? Anyway, I think under your system you are underestimating Battier's value. If Battier is worth 1-2 wins, what is Dikembe? .25- .5 wins? What is Alston? etc.</div> Like I said, those stats are my ASSUMPTION of how the ROCKETS would do if they were without one of those players. I did not put a lot of time into coming up with the stats, it was just my way of conveying how important I think each player is to the team's success.
<div class="quote_poster">evolidiot Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">But at some point, you also have to admit that Battier can't win a game for you. In summary, Battier will never lose a game for you, and will definitely help you win a game, but will never be a big factor in winning the game. I hope that last sentence makes sense.</div> Ok. You might be right. Depending on what you mean by "big factor" (that leaves lots of room for interpretation). The relevant question here is will Battier be a bigger factor for the Rockets these next couple years than Rudy Gay and Stromile Swift would have been? I think the answer is yes. Long term, the Rockets might end up regretting it. Short term, it's a good deal.
<div class="quote_poster">evolidiot Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You seem to have misunderstood what I said. I think wins are the best measuring stick for players like Battier (those players that have very mediocre stats). If not by wins, how are you supose to judge him by? His stats are that of a mediocre bench player. At least for Gasol, you can see what he actually contributes a lot to what the outcome of the game will be. And yes, I understand that basketball is a team sport where usually not one person is solely responsible for a win or lose. But at some point, you also have to admit that Battier can't win a game for you. In summary, Battier will never lose a game for you, and will definitely help you win a game, but will never be a big factor in winning the game. I hope that last sentence makes sense.</div> *Remembers those 2 big shots Battier made last season late in the 4th to give his team the lead* At 8:06 in the 1st quarter of that game the score was [HOU 11-0 MEM]. In the 4th quarter: <font size=""1"">-6:41 [MEM 66-66] Battier Jump Shot: Made (12 PTS) -6:10 [MEM 68-66] Battier Jump Shot: Made (14 PTS) -5:37 [MEM 70-66] Battier Jump Shot: Made (16 PTS) -4:56 [MEM 71-68] Battier Free Throw 1 of 2 (17 PTS) -4:56 [MEM 72-68] Battier Free Throw 2 of 2 (18 PTS) -1:30 [MEM 82-76] Battier Jump Shot: Made (20 PTS ) -1:21 Head Driving Layup: Missed Block: Battier (3 BLK)</font> link: http://www.nba.com/games/20051125/HOUMEM/playbyplay.html
<div class="quote_poster">igotask8board Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">*Remembers those 2 big shots Battier made last season late in the 4th to give his team the lead* At 8:06 in the 1st quarter of that game the score was [HOU 11-0 MEM]. In the 4th quarter: <font size=""1"">-6:41 [MEM 66-66] Battier Jump Shot: Made (12 PTS) -6:10 [MEM 68-66] Battier Jump Shot: Made (14 PTS) -5:37 [MEM 70-66] Battier Jump Shot: Made (16 PTS) -4:56 [MEM 71-68] Battier Free Throw 1 of 2 (17 PTS) -4:56 [MEM 72-68] Battier Free Throw 2 of 2 (18 PTS) -1:30 [MEM 82-76] Battier Jump Shot: Made (20 PTS ) -1:21 Head Driving Layup: Missed Block: Battier (3 BLK)</font> link: http://www.nba.com/games/20051125/HOUMEM/playbyplay.html</div> I was hoping this thread would die already because, like I said, I don't really care anymore. I'm not denying that Battier is a good player, my main gripe is that the trade was a horrible one where we should have gotten more out of it. I like Battier, I just don't like it when poeple overhype his importance. Just because Battier made some big plays in that one game does not change my opinion. Every player has a game where they make a big play at the end. If my memory is correct, Stromile Swift, a player everyone seems to hate, had a couple of big blocks that preserve two wins for us. Padget, a couple seasons ago, had that last second shot to win the game. Head made a couple of big threes for us. Almost every player has their moment in the sun. In the grand scheme of the entire season, I don't see Battier being that important to the Rockets success, especially not in the playoffs considering his tendency to play worse in the playoffs. That is one reason why I think Bonzi will be more important. At least he picked up his game when it was most important. This should not be taken as me being unappreciative of his contributions, which are usually positive. I just think everyone is making too much of Battier. And FYI, that Rockets game was 1 of 6 games where he scored 20+. He had more games (20) with 5 points or less.
<div class="quote_poster">SkiptoMyLue11 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Tmac can't win a game for you, Yao can't win a game for you. Every player that plays a minute has an impact on the game, every rebound, staying in front of your man, all has an impact. All these combined impacts throughout the 48 minutes of the game determine the outcome. Tmac alone doesn't "win games", it requires contributions from every player on the floor. Battier does not have the scoring capability of Tmac, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't have a significant impact.</div> I'm surprised no one brought up that spurs game.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm surprised no one brought up that spurs game.</div> I thought about it. But you have to remember Yao had 36 points that game. He got across his point, but I know what your saying. It's a team effort. What about Sura's D on Parker, or Yao on Duncan. All were neccessary in order to limit their points during that amazing offensive spurt (we only won by 1 point).
<div class="quote_poster">igotask8board Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> He got across his point, but I know what your saying. It's a team effort. What about Sura's D on Parker, or Yao on Duncan. All were neccessary in order to limit their points during that amazing offensive spurt (we only won by 1 point).</div> Actually, the amazing thing about it was they never really stopped scoring. We kept fouling them, and they kept making the foul shots. It was only the very last possession when Devin Brown lost the ball that we got a defensive stop.
