<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Did I ever say that blacks are the only race to be discriminated against....no......but historically and to this day blacks have it the worst in American society when it comes politics, media, the judicial system, schools, etc....maybe you should open up the history book...or better yet your eyes. and far as black "exclusivity" is concerned, everyone else can be "exclusive" without it being viewed as "exclusive", but as soon as black people think like black people...oh then it's "exclusive"....I've heard this argument over and over. EDIT and J Edgar Hoover = BIGOT!!!</div> in response to the first part- native americans are probably the worst off, its kinda of an established empirical fact. nevertheless, i never argued black americans were not discriminated against, on the contrary, the crux of my position is that black america should reach out to the other disadvantages peoples to strengthen their political reach, i.e. the lesson of dr. kings legacy. black exclusivity? there is a theravada buddhist philosophy that states that "nothing exists in isolation" or in other words "no man (group) is an island"- think about it if u want to exist in equality with your fellow american brethren hoover= the MAN, and he don't like your kind, plus he needs to get re-elected so he has no qualms about executing a black retard before election day
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">black exclusivity? there is a theravada buddhist philosophy that states that "nothing exists in isolation" or in other words "no man (group) is an island"- think about it if u want to exist in equality with your fellow american brethren </div> and there's a thing called "reality" where there is exclusiveness......you can't expect me to sit up and sing "we are the world" when there is still a lot of hatred and racism in america and worldwide......society says "we are one", yet that isn't true if you take a look around.....I can get much more in depth about this, but that wasn't the original point of this thread so I'll leave it alone. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">hoover= the MAN, and he don't like your kind, plus he needs to get re-elected so he has no qualms about executing a black retard before election day </div> stupid post.....that's all.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> stupid post.....that's all.</div> u call it stupid, i call it american history 101- thats what bill clinton did to get reelected as the governer of Arkansan- he o.k the execution of a black retard to appease the conservatives who thought a democrat couldn't get tough on crime. hoover and clinton are the same people as far as race relations goes, separated by 30 years or so. off topic? u have argued emphatically throughout the thread that the plight of black people in america sucks and it bemused u to see gays mentioned synonymously with blacks in respects to inequality.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">off topic? u have argued emphatically throughout the thread that the plight of black people in america sucks and it bemused u to see gays mentioned synonymously with blacks in respects to inequality. </div> yes, and others agreed with me...so how bout we get back on that topic, that you've avoided. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">u call it stupid, i call it american history 101- thats what bill clinton did to get reelected as the governer of Arkansan- he o.k the execution of a black retard to appease the conservatives who thought a democrat couldn't get tough on crime. hoover and clinton are the same people as far as race relations goes, separated by 30 years or so. </div> I reffered to it as stupid, because of your terminology...such as "your kind".
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">yes, and others agreed with me...so how bout we get back on that topic, that you've avoided. I reffered to it as stupid, because of your terminology...such as "your kind".</div> o.k. consider re-reading the the entire thread and u might realize u never had a position, cause u change it from post to post in your attempt to debate me. an informed perspective is what u lack; if u re-read it carefully u might realize that i was simply connecting the political dots for u- blacks and gays together can ignite change. u are too caught up on race to understand it all; in the words of james baldwin , "race is an aversion from more pertinent questions of self". baldwin in case u didn't know was a great african american writer and he happened to be gay as well.
I know who James Baldwin is (no need to quote the "black guy" to prove your point)..and my stand on the issue (and others) is that there is no "uniting" between blacks and gays, because there struggles aren't the same....and if you actually think they are similar, then you need help.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I know who James Baldwin is (no need to quote the "black guy" to prove your point)..and my stand on the issue (and others) is that there is no "uniting" between blacks and gays, because there struggles aren't the same....and if you actually think they are similar, then you need help.</div> ignoring history are we? why did dr. king unite with jews and women? i guess he's a moron
Yes, Jews and Women...not gays and blacks.....please stop with the lame argument.....in order to "unite" in a struggle there has to be A LOT of similarities.....gay people and black peoples struggles are no where near being the same thing (as me and a couple of other posters have pointed out in this thread)....apparently you seem to be the only one who thinks they are.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, Jews and Women...not gays and blacks.....please stop with the lame argument.....in order to "unite" in a struggle there has to be A LOT of similarities.....gay people and black peoples struggles are no where near being the same thing (as me and a couple of other posters have pointed out in this thread)....apparently you seem to be the only one who thinks they are.</div> lame? gays and blacks as a political force have more utility than women, jews and blacks. cause blacks and gays are fighting for divergent rights, i.e marriage for homosexuals (socio), whereas blacks are mostly engaged today in the struggle for economic justice. and btw- your denying the realities here because both jesse jackson, along with a host black intellectuals and leaders have spoke out vociferously against homophobia. btw- u mentioned that homosexuals choose to be gay, curious observation since modern genetics as well as psychology have dismissed it has folklore
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">btw- u mentioned that homosexuals choose to be gay, curious observation since modern genetics as well as psychology have dismissed it has folklore </div> there hasn't been 100% proof that it's genetic (and there never will be)...there ARE gay people who seek counseling and turn back to being straight....seems a lil odd that that would happen if it was "genetic" <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">lame? gays and blacks as a political force have more utility than women, jews and blacks. cause blacks and gays are fighting for divergent rights, i.e marriage for homosexuals (socio), whereas blacks are mostly engaged today in the struggle for economic justice. </div> bingo......Gays have marches for the term "marriage"...a term....you're acting like I'm denying that they don't get discriminated against....the rights they're fighting for are small in comparison in what blacks have been and are still fighting for today....that's why grouping the two together and comparing them is silly and idiotic and in some sense a "slap in the face" to the black community. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and btw- your denying the realities here because both jesse jackson, along with a host black intellectuals and leaders have spoke out vociferously against homophobia. </div> I speak out against homophobia to...I think everyone should be treated equally and fairly....BUT I'm talking about the "comparison"....so this point is irrelevant.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">there hasn't been 100% proof that it's genetic (and there never will be)...there ARE gay people who seek counseling and turn back to being straight....seems a lil odd that that would happen if it was "genetic" bingo......Gays have marches for the term "marriage"...a term....you're acting like I'm denying that they don't get discriminated against....the rights they're fighting for are small in comparison in what blacks have been and are still fighting for today....that's why grouping the two together and comparing them is silly and idiotic and in some sense a "slap in the face" to the black community. I speak out against homophobia to...I think everyone should be treated equally and fairly....BUT I'm talking about the "comparison"....so this point is irrelevant.</div> no there hasn't been 100% proof but as a dude who hedges his bets- gays were born that way or at the very least according to some anthropologists- we are born sexually neutral (gay nor straight). nevertheless, are u reading the same words i'm typing? did i ever compare? All i did was establish the obvious- there are a whole bunch of disadvantaged groups, not once did i imply differing degrees in disadvantage (i.e. gays have it just as worse as blacks). my argument has been consistent- blacks and gays together have political synergy to get stuff done. your arguments on the other hand are riddled with logical inconsistencies. lets take your position that marriage as a political gripe holds nothing against what black americans are fighting for. u do realize blacks can marry and homosexuals can't. besides not being able to marry is a huge gripe in modern societies, cause married couples are afforded tax benefits, legal recognition which is meaningful in cases of death or disability and planning for retirement is a whole lot easier for married couples.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">no there hasn't been 100% proof but as a dude who hedges his bets- gays were born that way or at the very least according to some anthropologists- we are born sexually neutral (gay nor straight). </div> there are also many scientists, anthropologists, etc. that would disagree with that notion also.....there has been research that shows "coorelation", but not "causation", because ultimately it is a decision....you should really look into the studies, because even scientists who are trying prove it's genetic, aren't sure that there is a 100% causation. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">nevertheless, are u reading the same words i'm typing? did i ever compare? All i did was establish the obvious- there are a whole bunch of disadvantaged groups, not once did i imply differing degrees in disadvantage (i.e. gays have it just as worse as blacks). my argument has been consistent- blacks and gays together have political synergy to get stuff done. </div> in some senses you did compare <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">nevertheless, i don't know how familiar u are with the civil rights movement in the states -its enduring legacy was identifying the symbiosis of all oppressed people. to that end, segregation wasn't ended in the southern united states without the cooperation of jews and women, hopefully gays and lesbian can be included to enhance the continuing struggle that Dr. King spoke so eloquently about. to me linking gays and lesbians to the ongoing black struggle for civil rights is politically astute for blacks. </div> ...we're both fighting for rights, but the rights we're fighting for are different...there is no "coming together" politically because there isn't that many things that we can come together on.....I will not be tending any pro black/gay parades anytime soon, because our struggles aren't similar. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">your arguments on the other hand are riddled with logical inconsistencies. lets take your position that marriage as a political gripe holds nothing against what black americans are fighting for. u do realize blacks can marry and homosexuals can't. besides not being able to marry is a huge gripe in modern societies, cause married couples are afforded tax benefits, legal recognition which is meaningful in cases of death or disability and planning for retirement is a whole lot easier for married couples. </div> I realize that there are benefits that come with being "married", BUT it is not what black people are fighting for.....I have no problems "uniting" for something if their is actual "unity" in our problems.......it's common to see latinos and blacks "uniting" on a lot of issues, because our communities share A LOT of the same problems....not the same with gays, that is why there have been numerous black leaders and black people in general who feel the same way as I do.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">there are also many scientists, anthropologists, etc. that would disagree with that notion also.....there has been research that shows "coorelation", but not "causation", because ultimately it is a decision....you should really look into the studies, because even scientists who are trying prove it's genetic, aren't sure that there is a 100% causation. in some senses you did compare ...we're both fighting for rights, but the rights we're fighting for are different...there is no "coming together" politically because there isn't that many things that we can come together on.....I will not be tending any pro black/gay parades anytime soon, because our struggles aren't similar. I realize that there are benefits that come with being "married", BUT it is not what black people are fighting for.....I have no problems "uniting" for something if their is actual "unity" in our problems.......it's common to see latinos and blacks "uniting" on a lot of issues, because our communities share A LOT of the same problems....not the same with gays, that is why there have been numerous black leaders and black people in general who feel the same way as I do.</div> the example u cited was me reiterating the political need for organized action, i wasn't comparing at all. and it isn't about attending gay/black rallies, although, i'm certain those kind of things go on. what i'm speaking to his strengthening the organizational capacity and structure of black activism, e.g. jesse jackson lends his support for gay marriage, elton john reciprocates the gesture by donating $100, 000 to the rainbow coalition. latinos? did u know in the last national election- hispanics voted overwhelmingly republican, while blacks were steadfast once again in their support for the democrats at 90%. countenance is deceiving and can be a fatal flaw if your trying to build a rights-based campaign predicated on such a superficial thing. btw- black leaders and black america thank u for speaking for them on JUSTBBALL.COM. U do realize thats a foolish assertion?
What the hell, deception? Did you ever attempt to read DREAM's actual objection or were you content with putting words into his mouth and then arguing against that? This is what he's objecting against (as well as me): <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Plessy court couldn’t have said it better: separate railway cars for blacks are fine, as long as they are just as nice as the ones for whites. Don’t bother about that curtain between the black and white cars. “Marriages,” “civil unions,” “two guys shacking up with a lot of All-Clad cookware”—does the term really matter?</div> There is a legitimate greivance for the gay community. But in this piece of writing, the author is drawing parallells to a historically well known era to curry support for his own viewpoint. There are a couple of things we have objected against: 1. It dismisses the uniqueness of the gay movement, by placing it in the context of past events 2. It disrespects the importance of the civil rights movement, by using its' emotional impact as an argumentative tool. You've continued to bring him away from his original point, arguing over irrelevant issues. With each additional post, you've brought up more extensive statisitics/facts that disprove small details in DREAM's post, while ignoring the main crux of his argument. Genetics, black exclusivity, racial politics, political synergy, etc. None of them have had anything to do with his original objection. You complain that his stance changes from post to post, but that's only because you've brought the discussion more off topic with every post.
<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What the hell, deception? Did you ever attempt to read DREAM's actual objection or were you content with putting words into his mouth and then arguing against that? This is what he's objecting against (as well as me): There is a legitimate greivance for the gay community. But in this piece of writing, the author is drawing parallells to a historically well known era to curry support for his own viewpoint. There are a couple of things we have objected against: You've continued to bring him away from his original point, arguing over irrelevant issues. With each additional post, you've brought up more extensive statisitics/facts that disprove small details in DREAM's post, while ignoring the main crux of his argument. Genetics, black exclusivity, racial politics, political synergy, etc. None of them have had anything to do with his original objection. You complain that his stance changes from post to post, but that's only because you've brought the discussion more off topic with every post.</div> let me clarify the article for u- the court ruling was used as an analogous legal case, maybe in the spirit of legal precedents. the court ruling in NJ was seen by the author as analogous to the "Separate but Equal" plessy court ruling; i.e. separate railway cars for blacks and whites and two definitions of marriage for gay and straight people. he wasn't comparing their histories, nor their beef but the disturbingly bigoted tone of the rulings. i'll tell u, like i told "the dream"- re-read the thread and u'll see he pushed the black exclusivity thing so hard- he starting to sound like a separatist. to that end, i was merely pointing out to him that the only strategies that ever worked for black folks was a broadbased one. although, i'm sure the dream appreciates u sticking up for him , in spite of it being a case of the blind leading the blind. <div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> 1. It dismisses the uniqueness of the gay movement, by placing it in the context of past events " 2. It disrespects the importance of the civil rights movement, by using its' emotional impact as an argumentative tool. </div> past events? all things are rooted in history, particularly struggles, and their is a continuum attached to it. the legal wrangling over gay marriage is a benchmark just like the 60s was for civil rights. fyi- the civil rights movement also included gays and lesbians. emotional impact? no it gives perspective, if your suggesting it desensitizes us to history and the ongoing hardships confronted by black people in acquiring housing, sending their kids to well fund schools, etc.- u are wrong. it renews our vigour to build a more inclusive society for all, e.g. the new jersey court ruling could be leveraged by another disadvantaged group to get their struggle heard and recognized, hence the continuum
<div class="quote_poster">deception Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">lame? gays and blacks as a political force have more utility than women, jews and blacks. cause blacks and gays are fighting for divergent rights, i.e marriage for homosexuals (socio), whereas blacks are mostly engaged today in the struggle for economic justice. </div> First off, from a realistic stand point, this whole "gay and black" unity movement you keep referencing in your posts is not likely to happen anytime soon. I haven't gone through every single one of yours and the Dream's posts, but I will simply say this; it's two different issues. Discrimination can take place in many forms but racism and prejudice in comparison to neglect towards fully embracing something (gays) is two different topics. Blacks are generally accepted, much more than gays. And although I don't mean to put words into every black person's mouth, I will have to say that most of the black people (NOT ALL, I'm not speaking for everyone; I'm saying this based on my experiences) I have talked to (regardless of what age) are homophobic to an extent or simply against gays. I will admit I have not met highly positioned blacks (i.e- CEO'S or professors), and I'm sure they approach homosexuality in a more understanding or intellectual manner, but do you really think unity is possible when many blacks themselves are opposed to homosexuality in the first place? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> btw- u mentioned that homosexuals choose to be gay, curious observation since modern genetics as well as psychology have dismissed it has folklore</div> I'm not sure about the biological standpoints, but as far as psychology goes; it is still up for debate whethere nature makes one homosexual or nurture molds them into one. I know of a gay dude in my school, and he definetly wasn't "born gay". Sexuality is a preference IMO, you either feel someway towards a gender or you don't.
deception, you obviously seek to be a persuasive writer and thinker - this goal is undermined by your writing style which comes off to me, and I'll bet other, as arrogant and dismissive....
<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">deception, you obviously seek to be a persuasive writer and thinker - this goal is undermined by your writing style which comes off to me, and I'll bet other, as arrogant and dismissive....</div> fair enough.
<div class="quote_poster">Junoon Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I know of a gay dude in my school, and he definetly wasn't "born gay". Sexuality is a preference IMO, you either feel someway towards a gender or you don't.</div> Was he "born straight"? And of course it's a preference -- that doesn't mean it's a willful choice. How many young teenagers commit suicide because they're being harassed for being gay? If it was just a matter of choice, I'd think they'd take the easier, low-risk route. All the hundreds of species of animals where homosexuality has been observed ... you think those animals are making a willful choice?
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Was he "born straight"? And of course it's a preference -- that doesn't mean it's a willful choice. How many young teenagers commit suicide because they're being harassed for being gay? If it was just a matter of choice, I'd think they'd take the easier, low-risk route. All the hundreds of species of animals where homosexuality has been observed ... you think those animals are making a willful choice?</div> junoon's post isn't worth replying to- he explicitly says that black people are homoaphobic, correction, except black professors and ceo's
