<div class="quote_poster">boogielew Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Anime, i get the fact we are up against the wall, but again aside from the Foyle blunder and the dunleavy extension, both mistakes....what should he have done? I wish he had Allan Houston'd Foyle's deal.</div> Aside from those 2 contracts what should he have done? I think it's a question of what "could" he have done. And the answer is nothing. After signing those 2 to ridiculous contracts there isn't anything he CAN do to clear up space since I believe almost no team would take them and give us an expiring contract. The reason I'm afraid is because Cohan will probably not pay luxury. If he was willing, it wouldn't me much of an issue right now.
<div class="quote_poster">boogielew Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Anime, i get the fact we are up against the wall, but again aside from the Foyle blunder and the dunleavy extension, both mistakes....what should he have done? I wish he had Allan Houston'd Foyle's deal.</div> I give Mullin a credit that he has a very good network, which brought Nelson and made Cohan to spend $ beyond any other GMs would dream of. Also, he didn't miss the draft as well. But, his work on finance is as bad as what Twerdzik did. 1. Fisher for 36 mils / 6 years: We signed him to be a starting PG... And, to this day, I can't find the logic. Fisher couldn't play PG even with Shaq and Kobe. And, it's not like he had a potential to be a decent PG. Also, we had Speedy for 3 mils per year. If we didn't sign him and save caproom, we could have 20 mils caproom next year. However, he signed Fisher for 6 years, and it turned out to be a failure immidiately. Fisher couldn't even beat out Speedy for the starting job, and he was a more problem than a solution in last two years. I couldn't understand the logic when he was signed, and it never made a sense until he left. 2. Foyle for 8.5 mils per year/ 5 years: We had 3 choices... 1. Resigning Dampier for roughly 10 mils per year 2. Resigning Foyle for roughly 8.5 mils per year 3. Sign and trade Dampier for Mohammad and Harrington. Dampier had career year, and he had legit NBA body to begin with. Foyle had horrendous contract year, and he was undersized center to begin with. But, it didn't stop Mullin from chasing away Dampier, and sign Foyle basically immidiately. Again, it didn't make sense back then, and it still don't make a sense now. 3. Richardson and Murphy extension at 3rd year. OK, we did save about couple millions for Richardson extension. And, Richardson had some merit to lock up at his 3rd year because of his potential. But Murphy? People already had a question on Murphy back then, and even if he averaged double-double back then, his value was 7 mils at best. 3rd year extension only belongs to a franchise players, or you are sure that you will get a bargain price later years because of the potential. Murphy neither was a franchise player nor had tons of unfulfilled potential. But, we overpaid Murphy for 10 mils. Even though he was a solid player, we certainly could do better with that money. And, as we saw in this offseason, Murphy with his price tag is not a hot commodity. If we hadn't sign Murphy at that year, we could have gotten Abdul-Rahim for MLE, since he knocked our door first. 4. Dunleavy extension at 3rd year. Mullin said at the end of 04-05 year meant nothing. So... why Dunleavy and the nutty extension? There is just no difference of signing rookies whether we sign him in 3rd year or 4th year. So, why? If we didn't have signed Dunleavy at 3rd year, we could have traded Dunleavy for Artest. Or, at worst, we could have signed Dunleavy for half of what he signed him. Again, it didn't make any sense when happened, and it still doesn't make any sense. 5. Bigger picture. We can sit here and make sure whether deals are good or not. But, the big picture is that Mullin absolutely put financial situation to the limit. We can say we bought Flat TV, DVD player, car, and other stuff, because we thought it's a bargain. However, if we max out the credit card and can't buy a food, it really doesn't matter whether we got a bargain or not. And, it's not like this happened out of nowhere. We could see this financial problem coming long time ago. When Mullin stepped in, he had zero long term contract, so entire blame for the financial problem goes to Mullin. Now, we can't even keep two minimum contracts due to luxury tax. Even though we kept Roberson and Barne, we will probably waive one player because of luxury tax. And, that came after we shaved most of Fisher's contract. To make things worse, we are the youngest team in the league, and we have no cash to resign them. If you knew the owner will not pay luxury tax, you simply can't have 15 mils at PG, 12 mils at SG, 9 mils at SF, 10 mils at PF and 8.5 mils at C roster...
<div class="quote_poster">boogielew Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">ACtually you do Bash Mullin a lot and i donj't get that either. LEt's see GM's without experience are pretty common these days. Isiah, BIrd, Jordan, Dumars, Paxson, etc... aside from Zeke who ran toronto these guys all are in their first gigs too and i know i am missing quite a few, the guy from ucla that used to be in denver cant remember his name, replaced by krystowiak i think. So what has Mullin done to deserve the bashing? Ok he is inexperienced, but so are the people i mentioned. He inherited most of this roster including foyle and dunleavy as you mentioned. His moves : Well, he has done well in the draft i think, MP has not blossomed as expected but is not a complete bust, was not a consensus pick for us at the time. Biedrins, still very young seems like he is finally on the verge of being highly productive, if i remember we were exstatic to see him fall to us past philly. Ike, jury still out, as he was mismanaged by Monty... and Ellis looks to be a steal POB, was a conensus pick for need and skills that he brings. So he has done ok with the draft, and no i am not one of those saying with hindsight to draft amare or gooden for that matter, based on the team make up and how touted dunleavy was, i was excited with the pick at the day of the draft. Sure i wish we had amare now. So we can obviously bash him for his signings. Foyle has been an absolute disaster. Given the fact we did a sign and trade for DAmpier and were left without a big man, he basically panicked in his first move. I would give him a mulligan except it really is a huge f-up. Fisher, a blind man could see this was a tremendously idiotic move. Signing a one dimensional 6 foot tall 2guard without any post presence mostly because he came from a winning franchise to supposedly teach us winning ways was a joke. However, he has corrected this mistake brilliantly getting 3 expiring contracts. So here is Mullin's mulligan. Murph/J-rich, you might argue, but based on the growth and work ethic each player had shown it seemed logical to me to lock them both up. Getting a steal of a deal with j-rich and slightly over paying for Murph .. a bit too long perhaps for Murph. Dunleavy, yeah i know..... never should have locked him up, i agree, he should have waited like he is doing with MP and see how Dunleavy fares, but that said Dunleavy could prove at least not to be a disaster. Monty, a horrendous signing. If he wanted to go with a young inexperienced at the NBA level coach why not go with Terry Porter, MArio Elie etc. Mistake corrected with Nelson. So basically, Foyle still haunts us and Dunelavy to some extent, the rest of his mistakes corrected in signings. What am i not seeing that you blame everything on Mullin? Trades, Obviously we got a steal in the BAron deal. Most of the other trades seem pretty insignificant, c-rob for trade exception, the skita trade, the dallas trade for laettner etc, carbarkapa from phoenix. So i dont get where you can blame this whole supposed mess on Mullin. Aside from the Foyle disaster and if you want to call the Dunleavy extension bad, i think he has done well for the moves he hasnt made. Ike/murph for ARtest, HArrington deal etc.... I think Mullin is doing fine thus far. We have'nt had a center fall in our laps like Howard or Bogut. Unless you consider Magliore a missed opportunity what other centers have been available? DArko?</div> It was Mullin's fault IMO because he had pretty much free room to manuever after dumping Jamison/Chris Mills/Fortson's salary. Of course he spent it wisely on Jrich, but the Murphy deal was questionable IMO because for a double double guy the types of other things he did on the court was nowhere near Erick Dampier's final contract year with the warriors. Dampier's double doubles were a lot more powerful because he scored in the paint, he played defense in the post against guys like Shaq and he blocked over two shots a game when our perimeter defense couldn't get it done. So what does Mullin do? He locks up everyone he wants to see together for the next 6 years (in which he already has Dunleavy in mind and avoiding roster turnover which means including Foyle and getting solid lockerrom presence which means Fisher). So Mullin gets free agents like Foyle and Fisher and hopes they make the playoffs without even considering what his next moves are and who he is trying to build around or build placeholders for. He doesn't worry about future payroll, chemistry, style, a foundation put in place to see these guys improve, especially defensively. He didn't build the roster on its two main strengths which is Jrich and Murphy. The two don't fit together anyway, but if he's going to start somewhere, he has to hold off on certain players that aren't franchise worthy (meaning everyone but Jrich while trying to avoid overpay for Jrich like with what happened to Jamison). Instead he overpays Dunleavy, he drafts a guy that is years away from playing power forward or center. He drafts some big men, out of which only one is really geared to play the post offense we need. The verdict is still out on POB, Ike, or Ellis and whether they are being developed right with coaches and good teammates that can show the rookies a thing or two. All in all Mullin has illustrated he doesn't know what to do. He throws a hail mary pass and hopes somebody on his team is in the endzone to catch it. He wasn't thinking about his next few moves and he took his hand off the piece before thinking over the decision. That's why we're here today with virtually the same roster. Because of the bad moves he made in 2004. If we didn't have Dunleavy and Foyle on this team, maybe we couldn't have used it on free agents, but maybe we could have used some of that money for when we finally gain some momentum. 2005-2006 year was absolute blue balls because after acquiring Baron Davis, Mullin didn't make any moves. He made one which was to re-sign Dunleavy early like he did with Jrich and Murphy's deals rather than waiting the next year for the market to set the price. Only Jrich was worth signing early. To me Murphy is only as valuable as a guy like Quentin Richardson. He'll rebound and help bomb threes and make some nice plays, but he's no star. So why bother locking up a utility player at the power forward position when he's clearly not a playoff starting power forward or a center type skill. Not unless we have Shaq. If we look at the way the chicago bulls recovered and rebuilt their team, there was a way to do it. And we failed. They also bet on the wrong high schoolers, but they got some great college guys with lots of upside. Because they had money they were able to spend in the right places and got Ben Wallace. I wish we had a Ben Wallace.
Also, boogie lew you don't blame the rookie employee for the mess, you blame the rookie boss for not understanding the hiring process in the first place. The GM is the one picking the players out for their hired coach, and you dont' see that happening in college because the coaches pick their players out when they design a basketball program. They know exactly what they're getting and they know exactly what they plan to use. Who does the GMing now, the rookie coach we had or the GM? The GM. In Nelson's case he's like a GM like a Pat Riley of some sorts, so he will probably be handling things for Mullin because Mullin doesnt' know what to do to make things work. He's incapable of planning ahead and for the short term. In fact, all Mullin has ever done in the nba was play small ball for the Warriors. You think he knows how to build different kinds of teams that can be successful outside of what he was used to playing? Hell, there ain't no way in hell he's ever going to design a team for motion offense, high-low plays, triangle offense. He doesn't even know what a center is. I'd take Jarron Collins over longterm Foyle anyday. Not only does he not have the right players because we lack big men that can pass and guards that can shoot and dribble, Mullin has no idea of what kind of team he's giving to the coach. Montgomery was a bad hire if Mullin wasn't going to correct the team so that it could function like a halfcourt team. It's because he got big dudes that weren't ready to play, a big dude set back by injuries, and a bunch of guards that couldn't shoot, penetrate or be smart like a point guard. We knew Biedrins was years away, so there wasn't any alternative to play anyone before Foyle. What we should have done was gotten a competent GM that wasn't going to make collosal f-ups in the first place because he had a strong vision with experience and knew exactly how the rules, plays, and team chemistry works. I'd rather have a coach as GM just like they do in college ball, not a former player that isn't as well rounded as Larry Bird. At least Larry bird coached. As for Isaih Thomas. He just makes too many damn knee jerk moves. I'm glad Mullin at least waits even though he waits too long. Dunleavy will probably never be a star. No need to wait on that, but he made a isiah move on him and locked him up.
<div class="quote_poster">Kwan1031 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I give Mullin a credit that he has a very good network, which brought Nelson and made Cohan to spend $ beyond any other GMs would dream of. Also, he didn't miss the draft as well. But, his work on finance is as bad as what Twerdzik did. 1. Fisher for 36 mils / 6 years: We signed him to be a starting PG... And, to this day, I can't find the logic. Fisher couldn't play PG even with Shaq and Kobe. And, it's not like he had a potential to be a decent PG. Also, we had Speedy for 3 mils per year. If we didn't sign him and save caproom, we could have 20 mils caproom next year. However, he signed Fisher for 6 years, and it turned out to be a failure immidiately. Fisher couldn't even beat out Speedy for the starting job, and he was a more problem than a solution in last two years. I couldn't understand the logic when he was signed, and it never made a sense until he left. 2. Foyle for 8.5 mils per year/ 5 years: We had 3 choices... 1. Resigning Dampier for roughly 10 mils per year 2. Resigning Foyle for roughly 8.5 mils per year 3. Sign and trade Dampier for Mohammad and Harrington. Dampier had career year, and he had legit NBA body to begin with. Foyle had horrendous contract year, and he was undersized center to begin with. But, it didn't stop Mullin from chasing away Dampier, and sign Foyle basically immidiately. Again, it didn't make sense back then, and it still don't make a sense now. 3. Richardson and Murphy extension at 3rd year. OK, we did save about couple millions for Richardson extension. And, Richardson had some merit to lock up at his 3rd year because of his potential. But Murphy? People already had a question on Murphy back then, and even if he averaged double-double back then, his value was 7 mils at best. 3rd year extension only belongs to a franchise players, or you are sure that you will get a bargain price later years because of the potential. Murphy neither was a franchise player nor had tons of unfulfilled potential. But, we overpaid Murphy for 10 mils. Even though he was a solid player, we certainly could do better with that money. And, as we saw in this offseason, Murphy with his price tag is not a hot commodity. If we hadn't sign Murphy at that year, we could have gotten Abdul-Rahim for MLE, since he knocked our door first. 4. Dunleavy extension at 3rd year. Mullin said at the end of 04-05 year meant nothing. So... why Dunleavy and the nutty extension? There is just no difference of signing rookies whether we sign him in 3rd year or 4th year. So, why? If we didn't have signed Dunleavy at 3rd year, we could have traded Dunleavy for Artest. Or, at worst, we could have signed Dunleavy for half of what he signed him. Again, it didn't make any sense when happened, and it still doesn't make any sense. 5. Bigger picture. We can sit here and make sure whether deals are good or not. But, the big picture is that Mullin absolutely put financial situation to the limit. We can say we bought Flat TV, DVD player, car, and other stuff, because we thought it's a bargain. However, if we max out the credit card and can't buy a food, it really doesn't matter whether we got a bargain or not. And, it's not like this happened out of nowhere. We could see this financial problem coming long time ago. When Mullin stepped in, he had zero long term contract, so entire blame for the financial problem goes to Mullin. Now, we can't even keep two minimum contracts due to luxury tax. Even though we kept Roberson and Barne, we will probably waive one player because of luxury tax. And, that came after we shaved most of Fisher's contract. To make things worse, we are the youngest team in the league, and we have no cash to resign them. If you knew the owner will not pay luxury tax, you simply can't have 15 mils at PG, 12 mils at SG, 9 mils at SF, 10 mils at PF and 8.5 mils at C roster...</div> A student of moneyball right there Nice Kwan.
Man custodian your hate for mullin really must run deep..... hmmm funny i remember mullin being in the championship or was that a different no.17? He's incapable of planning ahead and for the short term. In fact, all Mullin has ever done in the nba was play small ball for the Warriors. You think he knows how to build different kinds of teams that can be successful outside of what he was used to playing? Hell, there ain't no way in hell he's ever going to design a team for motion offense, high-low plays, triangle offense. He doesn't even know what a center is That is just absurd..... you have to be kidding me. Well i respect Mullin's take and experience over your evaluation and ridiculous hate. Yours is pure comedy. There are what? 10-15 rookie ex player gm's now? And all but Mullin had direction and design and of course they all played for champions and only know the offensive schemes they played under. I mean no way could danny ferry organize a team that could feature a triangel offense, i mean he never played in one, how could he? or larry bird or what the hell is mitch kupchak thinking? he never played in the triangle.... damn him.... phil must be scratching his head. comedy Pure comedy
I agree with Kwan's assessment of Mullin's moves. I understand Mullin's (bad) reasoning for signing for Fisher and Foyle, but why waste our cap space on a bunch of role players? (I bet Saint Jean must have been exasperated when he heard about those moves, since he worked so hard to clear it) Those moves very well could have put the team in the playoffs, but if the Warriors were able to a get superstar next season then they could have potential to be a championship contender. The Richardson and Murphy signings. I don't mind so much. I wouldn't have signed Murphy because he just doesn't fit the team. But I think I don't he were more overpaid than other similar players.
I would much rather have Kobe play to see how the warriors do with a healthy lakers squad. Oh well. Let's start this season off with a bang
<div class="quote_poster">boogielew Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Man custodian your hate for mullin really must run deep..... hmmm funny i remember mullin being in the championship or was that a different no.17? He's incapable of planning ahead and for the short term. In fact, all Mullin has ever done in the nba was play small ball for the Warriors. You think he knows how to build different kinds of teams that can be successful outside of what he was used to playing? Hell, there ain't no way in hell he's ever going to design a team for motion offense, high-low plays, triangle offense. He doesn't even know what a center is That is just absurd..... you have to be kidding me. Well i respect Mullin's take and experience over your evaluation and ridiculous hate. Yours is pure comedy. There are what? 10-15 rookie ex player gm's now? And all but Mullin had direction and design and of course they all played for champions and only know the offensive schemes they played under. I mean no way could danny ferry organize a team that could feature a triangel offense, i mean he never played in one, how could he? or larry bird or what the hell is mitch kupchak thinking? he never played in the triangle.... damn him.... phil must be scratching his head. comedy Pure comedy</div> Comedy? Why don't you re-read through your own post and ask yourself, "does this make sense?" I heard Billinder on ESPN forum needs a playpal.
Diogu is looking quicker and more explosive and looks to have dropped alot of the baby fat he had last year. Biedrins with a sick block on Bynum.
Yeah, I like it. I'm wondering how much longer Nelson will insist that Dunleavy and Murphy start together. Murphy's not a bad player, he's just no center compared to Biedrins/POB/Ike. He's a bad defensive player too. And Dunleavy... well he's just not good consistently at anything it seems. He's only good when it doesn't matter or if he's taking shots earlier like in the Dallas game he got thrown out of. If he gets two shots and doesn't touch the ball much, he's kind of useless.
<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">A student of moneyball right there Nice Kwan.</div> I have to say I am learning a lot of how people's mind works with Warriors fans. Saint was constantly mocked when he had to clean up and his last two season ended with 38 and 37 wins. Then Mullin stepped in with absolute financial freedom and inherited number of young talents. In last two years, we actually regressed and 0 long term financial committment turned into 60 mils financial committment. Yet, many people still refuse to believe that Mullin is the main reason why we are in where we are, just because he was a great Warriors player. It would be really interesting to see how fans react when our financial problem really became a problem...
<div class="quote_poster">Kwan1031 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I have to say I am learning a lot of how people's mind works with Warriors fans. Saint was constantly mocked when he had to clean up and his last two season ended with 38 and 37 wins. Then Mullin stepped in with absolute financial freedom and inherited number of young talents. In last two years, we actually regressed and 0 long term financial committment turned into 60 mils financial committment. Yet, many people still refuse to believe that Mullin is the main reason why we are in where we are, just because he was a great Warriors player. It would be really interesting to see how fans react when our financial problem really became a problem...</div> Yeah, the Warriors have not recovered from the Jamison trade, Musselman firing, Montgomery hiring, and it may be difficult for the Warriors to get passed Foyle's contract or Dunleavy's contract. But otherwise, he has drafted well, Baron is a nice pickup, Nelson seems good (though how much this trumps his two previous coaching decisions has yet to be seen), and that's about it. Also this team has continued to be one of the league's youngest teams for the past 6 years I believe. The age and losing have been the two constants on this team for the past several years. Andris with 3 blocks tonight was sweet. Somehow they have to get the ball to him more in the paint though. 3-3 (6 points), 3 boards, 3 blocks, 3 fouls, for Andris tonight.
If there is any hope for today's game, at least our young players looked quite good. Biedrins showed a lot of improvement, Diogu played very well, Monta was basically the only bright spot we had, and even POB's sky hook shot looked very interesting... Still... It's a depressing night...
<div class="quote_poster">Kwan1031 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I have to say I am learning a lot of how people's mind works with Warriors fans. Saint was constantly mocked when he had to clean up and his last two season ended with 38 and 37 wins. Then Mullin stepped in with absolute financial freedom and inherited number of young talents. In last two years, we actually regressed and 0 long term financial committment turned into 60 mils financial committment. Yet, many people still refuse to believe that Mullin is the main reason why we are in where we are, just because he was a great Warriors player. It would be really interesting to see how fans react when our financial problem really became a problem...</div> That's what I like from this board. I can learn from you, Clif, Wtwalker, Run BJM, Shape, Rudeezy, REREM, AF, and where everybody's viewpoints are, no matter how different in philosophy or perspective. And if we disagree it's something to keep in mind because maybe both sides of an argument can be right. But I like the fact you're all pretty patient with one another, especially you, wtwalker, rerem, run bjm, af, wfsnc93, gohn, zhone, philsmith and others. I get on Mullin because I know I just don't like him after it's been building up for the last two years since you, Kwan, brought up the subject of Mullin's first FA move. I was like damn you are so right when nobody was really concerned about salaries except for a few other people. Maybe Mullin isn't that bad in some eyes, maybe he is. Don't know unless it's a neutral standpoint and enough people, who know about basketball, weigh in on it. Anyway, I liked what you've said two years ago about the salary issue and that really stuck with me as something to expect for this season. A franchises' success all depends on the talent that fits, the flexibility to move those talents, and the flexibility to add more pieces once we build a foundation. That's continuity + season to season improvement. Now the Warriors did not follow those steps and it's why one bad offseason can affect the many seasons afterwards. It's how a young team like Chicago can suddenly gain momentum even though they picked two high school bigs that weren't franchise worthy. They managed to get good value for them though. Now if only we could get those high picks like the Bulls did all those years and not waste them on mediocrity. We just can't go anywhere with our midrange picks unless we have Jerry West in the front office or some GM coach who knows what kind of teams he wants to build. It seems like Mullin built the team around players like himself much like Isiah Thomas is doing with quick guards. I don't like that. PR stunt all the way. We should have gotten Muss to be GM so he can do all the screaming and bickering from the front office at his players, not shoot hoops with them. Now if we weren't saddled with Dun and Murphy, who knows maybe it would be clearer who to surround Jrich and Baron with. If we don't like Baron or Jrich, then let's not jump right out and sign people that don't fit with them. Sign placeholders or cheap talent. If we settle for something without knowing what it is, then there's a chance it won't be good. Like Dunleavy or Foyle at starter. I've always agreed with you and Clif on that reasoning to weigh long term and short term goals. Either let the market set the price or be damn sure of a guy's upside so we can figure out if we want to trade him later or keep him for good. If we can't keep the guy and we suspect the market is inflating his contract, let him walk. I mean look at the crap that went down with Carlos Boozer and Erick Dampier.
