More importantly, wouldn't adding a Kmart sized contract totally jack up who we could afford to keep? I'd rather keep Diogu/Biedrins frontline over Kmart to be honest. Kmart IMO is too small and injured to play out west. He was good when Kidd got him the ball and he had good knees, but he's just not the same the last two years. His numbers are way down. Hold onto Ike. He's 6'8, but he's got 10 lbs and more offensive moves than Kmart. The raptors win wasn't exactly a blowout and we could have used an inside presence like Ike to keep us in the game. IMO we've got a possible Kmart like defensive player in Biedrins. He's just not as tatooed, headband wearing, nasty chest pounder like Kmart is. That stuff is good every once in a while, but sometimes it's like... whatever... get some substance to go with that style. For Kmart, unless he gets his leaping ability and strength back, he's just not that explosive semi-Amare Stoudamire type guy around the bucket. He's more known for his post defense, rebounding, and shotblocking. But he's probably even better known for his jaw dropping athleticism that he once had.
<div class="quote_poster">SkiptoMyLue11 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know why Denver would want Foyle. They already have Camby, Nene, Nahera, and Joe Smith.</div> Camby, Nene, and Najera are all injury prone, and none of them have the bulk to handle heavy minutes at center. The Nuggets need a banger in the middle to take up space, secure rebounds, and defend the post. Having someone like Foyle clog the middle, would allow Camby to come from the weakside again on defense and rack up on blocks. Foyle can give the right team a solid 22-25 minutes a night just doing dirty work on the inside. Setting picks, sealing out defenders to open up the driving lanes, and playing tough interior defense. CR2 -- I wasn't suggesting Foyle for KMart, I'm suggesting Foyle for Joe Smith's expiring contract.
KMart is out for the season now. His game would've fit in well with Golden State, but he's too expensive and too much of an injury risk. Never mind his attitude problems! Even before he went out, it would've been a horrible trade idea -- way too risky! Last season, Carlos Boozer was being shopped. He would've been a risk due to being injury-prone but a lot better risk than KMart. Our best chance is to buy out Foyle!
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Camby, Nene, and Najera are all injury prone, and none of them have the bulk to handle heavy minutes at center. The Nuggets need a banger in the middle to take up space, secure rebounds, and defend the post. Having someone like Foyle clog the middle, would allow Camby to come from the weakside again on defense and rack up on blocks. Foyle can give the right team a solid 22-25 minutes a night just doing dirty work on the inside. Setting picks, sealing out defenders to open up the driving lanes, and playing tough interior defense. CR2 -- I wasn't suggesting Foyle for KMart, I'm suggesting Foyle for Joe Smith's expiring contract.</div> Denver wouldn't do Foyle for Joe Smith. They would do Foyle for KMart, but there's no reason why we should.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> CR2 -- I wasn't suggesting Foyle for KMart, I'm suggesting Foyle for Joe Smith's expiring contract.</div> Oh man sorry. I must have read too quickly and totally missed it. My bad.
I'd make that trade in a heartbeat. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I wasn't suggesting Foyle for KMart, I'm suggesting Foyle for Joe Smith's expiring contract.</div>
I don't think Foyle will even play in those "situational" matchups that Nellie talked about. Biedrins is actually a better defender and shotblocker, though not as good as staying out of foul trouble. Anyone notice Biedrins is almost averaging a double double? Holy cow!
Biedrins is getting the good kind of double double, which includes offensive rebounds and second chance points at high%. People can get double doubles and shoot under 43% and play horrible defense at the rim. Biedrins is emulating something of an Erick Dampier in his last contract year with us. He is not quite the post player though, but he is nonetheless effective.
<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Biedrins is getting the good kind of double double, which includes offensive rebounds and second chance points at high%. People can get double doubles and shoot under 43% and play horrible defense at the rim. Biedrins is emulating something of an Erick Dampier in his last contract year with us. He is not quite the post player though, but he is nonetheless effective.</div> I was about to say the same thing. Biedrins gets tough rebounds. He gives up a lot of rebounds because he goes out to contest the shooter, thus giving up position. While Murphy just watches the shooter and doesn't budge cause he wants the rebound.
<div class="quote_poster">CohanHater Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'd make that trade in a heartbeat.</div> Me too. Now back to reality. What about foyle and a first rounder for an expiring deal? Is a first round pick too high a price to pay to get rid of his contract?
<div class="quote_poster">DTKennedy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Me too. Now back to reality. What about foyle and a first rounder for an expiring deal? Is a first round pick too high a price to pay to get rid of his contract?</div> Considering the next draft might be packed with talent it might be. It all depends on what Mullin and Cohan are willing to do. If they are willing to bite luxury for a little bit then I wouldn't do the trade. But if they won't pay luxury I would, or else theres no way to keep Ellis, Biedrins, etc.
<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">People can get double doubles and shoot under 43% and play horrible defense at the rim.</div> You wouldn't be talking about a certain forward with a fask mask and foot problems, now would you? I've always hated that "double-double" moniker, for two reasons: first, because it sounds like a hamburger and therefore Foyle should do every thing in his power to stay away from the 'ol "double-double." But second, and most importantly, it makes stats more important than production. Anytime a player is labed a "double double guy" they're automatically considered a very valuable player. Even if they're terrible defenders, poor passers and ball handlers, poor shooters, etc. Murphy actually now crowns himself a DD guy, and when asked what his role is on the team, he says "to go out there and get a double double." The thing about it is, when he could actually do that he was playing alongside Foyle and Dunleavy, probably the worst rebounding trio in the history of sports. Consequently, Murphy picked up a lot of loose junk just by default. Now that Biedrins--an actual explosive, wiry, strong rebounder--is on the floor, Murphy and his 2" vertical leap are suddenly finding it difficult to collect the stats. Beans is a legit double double guy for two reasons: 1.)His points will always come. Because they all come around the rim, and are set up by the point guard. It doesn't matter whether he can create his own shot, or even if his shot is "off" on any given night. Simply by being active and being ready to catch the ball, Beans will get 8-12 a night. Murphy, on the other hand, relies on jumpshots and one on one moves. He likes the iso with the jab-step, jab-step, one dribble and step-back jumper. He's too slow and unexplosive to run a good pick-n-roll (stepping out to shoot is okay but rolling to the rim is a no-go), and he's not especially active around the rim. Of course he's been getting his 10 to 15 points a night, but I think that will change in Nellie ball, because now you don't always get your 5 to 8 one-on-one iso plays. You have to work, move without the ball, and get open so the guards can pass to you. Beans is great at that; Murph not so much. 2.)Beans will always get his rebounds. He's a legit 7 feet with long arms for a 7-footer. He's got insane hops. He's got a motor. He's got gunpowder in his joints, and pine tar on his hands. He catches almost everything and puts it back in a flash. He beats guys for rebounds with his height, with position, and with athleticism - the big 3. Murph does it pretty much with position, and with garbage boards, including fighting with a teammate for a board so he can retain the "double-double" moniker. Beans would probably average 8 a game on a team with a guy like Ben Wallace. Murphy would not, IMO. Murphy had back to back games with 0 rebounds. Beans will never do that. Beans will commit fouls going for loose boards. If Murphy doesn't have position he'll make a token gesture at the ball and then get back. I hate foul trouble, but I love the majority of Biedrins' fouls. They often occur when he's just trying to bust his ass to help the team, trying block shots, rebound, and tip loose balls. In two jumps, Beans gains more inches of vert than Murphy gets in a 48 minute game. If he ends up averaging a double-double, Beans and Murph will be at the complete opposite ends of the double-double spectrum. Beans=good / Murphy=bad
Well said, Alley Oop. I think it's really about the chemistry our other players (especially our big players) have with Baron Davis. I mean it's all about inside-outside presence. We know we have some outside threats that can attack from the perimeter, but we got nothing going on inside. And Biedrins emulates a Ben Wallace, a Kmart, an Andrei Kirilenko, a Samuel Dalembert, or a Marcus Camby in some ways. I'm just throwing names out there. He's similar in impact when he gets it going and he stays out of foul trouble. High % dunker, blocks shots, rebounds, extremely active in the paint. That describes at least one or two of the above. I'm not sure if Nelson's game has caused Murphy's rebounding to go down, I think it's because he's injured. Or maybe it is Nelson when he tells him to run down the floor instead of stay back to secure the defensive rebound. I'm sure Murphy is being very cautious with his face and foot injuries. It's just hard to play big when one is worried about getting hit in the face. Also, trying to fight for rebound position is hard when a toe or heel is extra sore. I liked Murphy up until he got slower after his rookie or sophmore year. I can't remember. It's like he got further and further away from the rim. Maybe that's what the coaches want him to do, but look at our overall field goal % when our guards, our small forward, and what we had as a center in Adonal Foyle would miss layups and take awful threes. We know Jrich/Baron/Ellis/Pietrus have more talent to attack from the wing because they are more athletic, but only one of them knows how to drive and kick, and maybe two or three know when to finish with finesse or power or both. When we try to apply Murphy or Dunleavy (oversized guards) into those roles, it's not the same. I still argue that in order to build a team we need to have a PF that plays like a power forward and a center that plays like a center. That means tough rebounding, inside action, the ability to spread the floor some, and guys who will play tough and do the dirty work. We've always needed more effort on getting down on that block, backing down, and using footwork to score, setting screens, boxing out, and the ability to drop a bounce pass when needed. I still wonder why it was guys like Erick Dampier in 2003 and Brian Cardinal in 2003 who seemed a lot more effective in intangibles and tangibles than Dunleavy or Murphy. I think it's because we needed to get tougher and not soft like we are now with the old Dun/Murph/Foyle frontcourt/middle. Foyle's not a banger. Murphy's not a inside guy who can challenge anybody so he doesn't emulate a center or a hard driving power forward. Dun is just lame as a starter. He could fit in with Baron Davis, but not with Murphy and maybe not with Jrich. The reason I say not with JRich is because that makes both SG/SF having trouble at creating offense with the ball. Jrich can't dribble very well yet. Dunleavy can dribble, but he's too damned slow and he can't shoot that well like Jrich can. Both of them are out bombing free throws and shooting a terrible 3 point %. I never thought Dun could be more horrible than Jrich, especially because he takes fewer threes and usually Dun would launch a three if he knew he could make it. Otherwise, he'd step in and hit the 23 or 20 footer. The hardest positions in the nba to find are point guard and center. If we stick with Baron or Ellis and one of our other bigs, we got something. Now we just need to find a prototype shooting guard and a lockdown defensive or versatile offensive small forward who can score and post up and drive it some. All backcourt players should be good on the ball defenders because the opposing backcourt handles it most of the time. That's why I like the smaller lineup with Ellis at SG, Pietrus or Jrich at SF because I know even though they are handicapped defensively at SF, they still play better defense than Jrich at SG and Dunleavy at SF. It's kind of about footspeed and not so much trying to play sagging help defense because 4 of its players are too slow to cover their own guys. Now we just have to worry about the postups... bigger players usually hold the rebounding advantage and the easier inside scoring... unless we're playing Dunleavy or some other guy who plays kind of small for their intended position.
