J. O'Neal for JRich and Murphy does not seem that out of the question. Apparently there is still some friction between O'Neal and Pacer coaching/management, although it's as of now not to the Artest level (but it could be getting there). We've seen that Indiana can be a shrewd negotiator, they would almost certainly be asking for Ellis, Biedrins, or Diogu in that package as well (IIRC they were asking for Diogu in the Artest negotiations). Ellis and Biedrins are almost certainly not going anywhere soon, so that leaves Ike. I would not want to give up JRich or Ike (Murphy I won't miss), but Clif is right, J. O'Neal playing alongside Andris, Baron, and Monta would be pretty scary.
I'd go JO for Murph/JRich. I dunno about salaries, but a twin tower tandem of him and Beans with Monta and Baron at the helm (toss in Pietrus for fun) and that would be downright sick. I love JRich but there are limitations to his game that he will never overcome. He'll never be a good ball-handler or passer. Decent, sure. Servicable, okay. But he tries way too hard to show that he's been working on his handle, and the only thing it shows me is how he is forcing the issue, wanting to be considered a guy who can handle in traffic when in reality he is not a good ball handler. He's awesome, but he'll never be a great ball handler, and in some respects I'd rather have Ellis and Baron out there than JRich Baron. I'm not throwing him under the bus, I'm just saying I'd consider a trade like that given the GS roster situation.
<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">J. O'Neal for JRich and Murphy does not seem that out of the question. Apparently there is still some friction between O'Neal and Pacer coaching/management, although it's as of now not to the Artest level (but it could be getting there). We've seen that Indiana can be a shrewd negotiator, they would almost certainly be asking for Ellis, Biedrins, or Diogu in that package as well (IIRC they were asking for Diogu in the Artest negotiations). Ellis and Biedrins are almost certainly not going anywhere soon, so that leaves Ike. I would not want to give up JRich or Ike (Murphy I won't miss), but Clif is right, J. O'Neal playing alongside Andris, Baron, and Monta would be pretty scary.</div> Yep, if we do deal for JO we'll surely lose JR, probably Diogu, and perhaps one of Murphy (most likely), Foyle (least likely), or Dunleavy. I'd be very sad to see JR or Diogu go but you gotta do what you gotta do to get a JO type guy. Can you imagine the team after that? PG: Monta/Baron/Dun SG: Baron/Pietrus/Roberson SF: Pietrus/Dun PF: JO/Dun/Pietrus/Barnes C: Dre/JO/POB/Foyle Nuts.
People get too excited when they hear what they want to hear. I said that JRich may be expendable if Ellis keeps playing like this. That's a pretty broad statement. The point that was made about JRich being relatively cheap is exactly why he would be expendable. You could, in theory, package him with a huge contract and get back a franchise player. I'm assuming that you could trade Zarko, Murphy, and JRich for Oneal. As much as I love JRich, the thought of Oneal, Baron, Beans, Ellis, Pietrus, and Ike and Dundun coming off the bench is exciting to me. It would give POB time to grow into a decent role as well. That's not only a playoff team, but a top 4 seed team in my opinion.
<div class="quote_poster">Run BJM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yep, if we do deal for JO we'll surely lose JR, probably Diogu, and perhaps one of Murphy (most likely), Foyle (least likely), or Dunleavy. I'd be very sad to see JR or Diogu go but you gotta do what you gotta do to get a JO type guy. Can you imagine the team after that? PG: Monta/Baron/Dun SG: Baron/Pietrus/Roberson SF: Pietrus/Dun PF: JO/Dun/Pietrus/Barnes C: Dre/JO/POB/Foyle Nuts.</div> I would be relunctant to give up Jason Richardson, Troy Murphy and Ike Diogu to the Pacers for Jermaine O'Neal. Dunleavy being the backup PF doesn't seem to be very ideal...But then again O'Neal would help this team against teams like the Spurs and Rockets... Part of me wants to see what this current roster can do before we make any 3 for 1 deals unless if two of the three players consists of Murphy, Foyle, or Dunleavy and we are getting a player that will honestly help the team a lot...The good thing is that there is a lot of time until the trade deadline so we can see what this team is all about. One week they were a disappointment the next week - a true contender. I bet we will get a better idea of what exactly this team needs in at least another few weeks if not a month or two.
<div class="quote_poster">CohanHater Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">People get too excited when they hear what they want to hear. I said that JRich may be expendable if Ellis keeps playing like this. That's a pretty broad statement. </div> You forget that Ellis and Richardson also play different positions..
Is there no concern about J o'neal's fragile body? The guy just doesnt seem to have the character as j-rich does to battle through and play with pain. Not many do really. O' neal has not played a full season ever and the last two seasons i think he played like 90 something games out of 164 possible. I wouldnt give j-rich for that ..... murph and diogu sure.... I agree with the posters that want to wait it out and see what we have. It is too bad we didnt go after those disgruntled off season guys over the summer. Well, rumoured to be at least. Zach Randolph and Carlos Boozer stock has certainly risen with their stellar recent play. With D Walsh stepping down after this season it will be interesting to see what developes with Indiana. I read an article where he said he was pleased with his patience with the Artest deal getting what they wanted, but admitted as the deadline approached things were feeling shakey. The Closer to the dead line if the O 'neal situation blows up the less leverage walsh will have.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You forget that Ellis and Richardson also play different positions..</div> In this system Ellis and Baron can share the backcourt and Pietrus can play the 2/3 as well, so no, I didn't. This system is flexible enough for that. Also, I wouldn't want to trade JRich, he's been great and I have more respect for him than any other player in the league as far as work ethic and heart are concerned. But I believe that the 2 is the easiest position to fill with a capeable player, and JRich is a 2/3. If you get a guy like Oneal that is truly gifted, then you can insert players at the 2 and push the ball up with regularity. Trust me, if you could give up Murphy and Ike and get a guy like Oneal, I'd say go for it, but you're going to need to move JRich to get that guy.
Trades are not going to be the solution. I do not want any trades for players who have already maxed out their talent unless its a salary dump (like Baron). Development of the young players is what is going to bring winning and stability to the Warriors. Biedrins, Diogu, Monta. Look at all pro sports, baseball, football, basketball. You rarely win by importing a fading All-Star for young players. There are exceptions, O'Neal to LA/Miami (but they won more because of their draftee Wade); Alcinder to LA; Rasheed to Det. Nash. A Garnett/O'Neal is not going to get the Warriors over the hump. They are going to get over the hump because of the development/improvement of their players. The surest way to lose progress is to trade for an aging player and lose your building blocks. Let's keep this core around for a while. (I do not believe that JRich is the franchise; the Warriors could survive without him, he lacks handles so he cannot create his own shot at the end of a shot clock.)
Yeah, I agree - good as JRich is in many areas, he is not a franchise guy. He just lacks the primacy to dominate, and he lacks the ball-handling skills to get an easy shot and get to the line. When JRich has a 30 point game, it's usually because all his shots--turn-around fade away jumpers and threes--were going down that night. Sure he can dunk, but if his jumper isn't falling he isn't going to get 30 by dribbling and going to the rack. He just isn't a guy you want to have the ball in his hands all night. He'll get stripped, dribble the ball of his toe or make a poor pass. He's got some nifty moves (see the 360 spin move three to beat Dallas at the buzzer) but those moves are scripted, rehearsed, and what he lacks is natural ball-control ability. He's worked on it but in some ways that's something you can't teach. On the other hand, Baron can own the rock all day in his sleep. Baron is more of a franchise guy because he can do everything and wants to dominate and take over a game. It's just he has yet to prove that he can do it consistently and be a leader. This year, he's doing everything Nellie asks, but we'll see a true test once they hit the road and start (perhaps) losing some games. If you combine JRich's durability, character, and work ethic with Baron's natural ability, now there you have the ultimate franchise guy.
I'd keep Jrich as a forward if we're not playing defense anyway. But like so many 6'6 forwards trying to play shooting guard like Bonzi, Desmond Mason, and Corey Maggette, they just lack certain elements that guys like Dwade, Ginobilli, Afernee Hardaway, Allan Houston, Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Kobe Bryant, Jerry Stackhouse' offense have to be stars in their position. Those guys are all or were blazing quick and could shoot in any way, pass, dribble, and have enough quickness in their step to do a lot more things than Jrich. Very good ball control and balance. Their steps are very good and their one-on-one games are nice. Jrich is probably average in a lot of areas for shooting guard, but if we're even considering giving up Jrich we better have a dynamic 20 points per game scorer in place or at least a 16 ppg game kind of guy with a dynamic shooting guard's game. Like having a Cuttino Mobley would be serviceable just as long as we have a real good small forward. The shooting guard getting at least 16ppg, with 4 assists, a steal, low turnovers. At small forward we want a guy like Jrich who can score, post up, dribble some, and equally important, rebound the ball. If we can help it, I'd rather keep Ellis at the two, Jrich at the three, until we're looking to swap star players. i.e. if Carmelo or Rashard Lewis were ever run out of town, take Melo/Lewis for Jrich.
Look at all pro sports, baseball, football, basketball. You rarely win by importing a fading All-Star for young players. There are exceptions, O'Neal to LA/Miami (but they won more because of their draftee Wade); Alcinder to LA; Rasheed to Det. Nash. A Garnett/O'Neal is not going to get the Warriors over the hump. They are going to get over the hump because of the development/improvement of their players. Normally I would agree with you on that point. But this case is a little different. If you're essentially moving talented players that don't fit the system, i.e. Murphy with a large salary too, then I think it's a bit different. Plus, I am not for moving any of the young core (Ellis, Beans, Pietrus) and keeping Baron. I think that it's not really the same as getting the veteran that has led teams to the promised land and is on his last legs. Garnett isn't that old even though he's been around for awhile, the same with JOneal. We'll see what happens though. I'd be happ with keeping these guys if they keep winning.
<div class="quote_poster">CohanHater Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Look at all pro sports, baseball, football, basketball. You rarely win by importing a fading All-Star for young players. There are exceptions, O'Neal to LA/Miami (but they won more because of their draftee Wade); Alcinder to LA; Rasheed to Det. Nash. A Garnett/O'Neal is not going to get the Warriors over the hump. They are going to get over the hump because of the development/improvement of their players. Normally I would agree with you on that point. But this case is a little different. If you're essentially moving talented players that don't fit the system, i.e. Murphy with a large salary too, then I think it's a bit different. Plus, I am not for moving any of the young core (Ellis, Beans, Pietrus) and keeping Baron. I think that it's not really the same as getting the veteran that has led teams to the promised land and is on his last legs. Garnett isn't that old even though he's been around for awhile, the same with JOneal. We'll see what happens though. I'd be happ with keeping these guys if they keep winning.</div> I agree. JR still has upside.
<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I agree. JR still has upside.</div>Sure, but upside = trade value as well. You gotta give quality to get quality, in most cases. It's more about finding which pieces fit best into the whole puzzle than it is about just collecting all the best pieces. And as much as I love JRich, I'm not completely convinced he's going to be the best fit for this team. Things have changed a bit because last year Monta was not much of a factor and Pietrus was terrible most nights. Now Ellis is clearly a permanant new piece and MP has been playing consistently and in control under Nellie. This team can't afford slump nights out of their star scorer. If you're going to be putting up 15 shots, you can't just hit 5 of them. JRich cannot create his own shot like so many of the new Warriors can, and he's still making poor decisions on his shot selection. Now yes, of course he's injured and I'm willing to give him some time to see what happens when he gets healthy. But if at that point he's still making poor decisions and still can't hit his freethrows...I dunno... Still wondering why the heck he waited so long to have that surgery too.
<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Sure, but upside = trade value as well. You gotta give quality to get quality, in most cases. It's more about finding which pieces fit best into the whole puzzle than it is about just collecting all the best pieces. And as much as I love JRich, I'm not completely convinced he's going to be the best fit for this team. Things have changed a bit because last year Monta was not much of a factor and Pietrus was terrible most nights. Now Ellis is clearly a permanant new piece and MP has been playing consistently and in control under Nellie. This team can't afford slump nights out of their star scorer. If you're going to be putting up 15 shots, you can't just hit 5 of them. JRich cannot create his own shot like so many of the new Warriors can, and he's still making poor decisions on his shot selection. Now yes, of course he's injured and I'm willing to give him some time to see what happens when he gets healthy. But if at that point he's still making poor decisions and still can't hit his freethrows...I dunno... Still wondering why the heck he waited so long to have that surgery too.</div> This is one of the most sensible posts I've read in a while. Thanks
<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Sure, but upside = trade value as well. You gotta give quality to get quality, in most cases. It's more about finding which pieces fit best into the whole puzzle than it is about just collecting all the best pieces. And as much as I love JRich, I'm not completely convinced he's going to be the best fit for this team. Things have changed a bit because last year Monta was not much of a factor and Pietrus was terrible most nights. Now Ellis is clearly a permanant new piece and MP has been playing consistently and in control under Nellie. This team can't afford slump nights out of their star scorer. If you're going to be putting up 15 shots, you can't just hit 5 of them. JRich cannot create his own shot like so many of the new Warriors can, and he's still making poor decisions on his shot selection. Now yes, of course he's injured and I'm willing to give him some time to see what happens when he gets healthy. But if at that point he's still making poor decisions and still can't hit his freethrows...I dunno... Still wondering why the heck he waited so long to have that surgery too.</div> Trading Jrich wasn't out of the question, it is about finding the right players that fit together. I think the free throw problem, sometimes defense, and inability to control the ball quickly really goes against what he should be doing for this team if we want him playing shooting guard. It's like how several teams tried to get Desmond Mason to play shooting guard, but he just couldn't handle that role and Rashard Lewis is not a tall shooting guard. Most teams have the prototype shooting guard (which is more like a point) or they have small forward emulate guard (point forward). Like for instance Rip Hamilton will score from about anywhere nowadays, but he mostly does it from midrange and he doesn't put the ball on the floor that much compared to guard-like Tayshaun Prince. And the Suns of recent had guys like Diaw/Joe Johnson operate small forward while Raja Bell/Quentin Richardson type SG/SF's didn't handle the ball so much. The point forward role also applied once in Memphis Grizzlies rotation when they had Eddie Jones/James Posey play shooting guard and Mike Miller handle the ball like a point forward. Clippers experimented with this role when they had Corey Maggette play shooting guard and had Qrich coming off the bench in favor of Marko Jaric or Bobby Simmons or somebody who can emulate shooting guard, but are tall or big like small forwards. I don't think Dunleavy can emulate the true point forward because he's just too damned slow for small forward position and he's too damn weak for power forward. If we had Lamar Odom, I think that might work because he's the tallest, best ballhandling big guy, but his attitude has always been in question. Plus, he's known to be injured quite a bit in his years as a pro. But that quickness, first step, and ballhandle control is just excellent. Plus, he rebounds and blocks shots. The only thing he can't do well is shoot free throws. Groan... If Jrich wants to be shooting guard, hell, we need a better point forward. If Murphy wants to be a power forward, we need a better center. Well... we need a better center anyway because that position we need to have in order to win. I don't care if he's short like Amare Stoudamire or Emeka Okafor, we need somebody to emulate inside presence inside the paint and get on that offensive glass. Defensive rebounds are important, but not if the team isn't getting that many stops or the kind that leads to fastbreak offense. Jrich has upside to improve, but it depends on how patient or how much of a believer we want to be. I know that 20ppg game scorer is hard to find and we can't just swap those kinds of players unless the other team sees something in Jrich. All I know is we need another guy to move the ball like Ellis does, but won't be so undersized...or slow.
<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Sure, but upside = trade value as well. You gotta give quality to get quality, in most cases. It's more about finding which pieces fit best into the whole puzzle than it is about just collecting all the best pieces. And as much as I love JRich, I'm not completely convinced he's going to be the best fit for this team. Things have changed a bit because last year Monta was not much of a factor and Pietrus was terrible most nights. Now Ellis is clearly a permanant new piece and MP has been playing consistently and in control under Nellie. This team can't afford slump nights out of their star scorer. If you're going to be putting up 15 shots, you can't just hit 5 of them. JRich cannot create his own shot like so many of the new Warriors can, and he's still making poor decisions on his shot selection. Now yes, of course he's injured and I'm willing to give him some time to see what happens when he gets healthy. But if at that point he's still making poor decisions and still can't hit his freethrows...I dunno... Still wondering why the heck he waited so long to have that surgery too.</div> First, we do not know whether Richardson isn't fitting with the system or not. And, if we are making that decision based on Richardson's first 12 games, that would be way too premature. There is no question that Richardson isn't doing well right now, and Nelson never hesitate to pull players if they struggles. However, despite being injured, Richardson averaged 32 mins including 4th quarter mins. That indicates that Nelson is putting a lot of trust on Richardson, even though he is just playing with one leg. If Richardson becomes healthy and still struggles, then we may start the talk whether he fits with the system or not. However, I have little doubt that Nelson will utilize Richardson the way he utilize Pietrus, Dunleavy, Biedrins and Monta. Richardson may not be the best player who can create his own shot. However, he has been that way for last 5 years, and he still became an excellent player. So, just because Monta emerged, I don't know why Richardson's inability to create his own shot should be an issue. Also, Richardson showed a lot of improvement in that part too. Last year, he went the foul line 5.5 times and shows steady improvement over years. He may not slice the defense with a speed like Monta, but Richardson is doing his way to get to the FT line. Monta's future lies in PG not SG. Unless he is Iverson, I don't see how 6'3", 177 lb player can take poundings against bigger SGs every day for his career. And, Richardson can play both SG and SF position. Last year, some people demanded to trade Davis, because he wasn't fitting into the system. If Warriors actually traded Davis just because of the struggle, we would have regretted that decision. This year, Richardson is injured and had little chance to fit into Nelson's system. First, let Richardson get healthy and give Nelson a chance to utilize him. If he still fails to contribute, we may start the trade talk. But, I just don't think now is the right time...
<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Trading Jrich wasn't out of the question, it is about finding the right players that fit together. I think the free throw problem, sometimes defense, and inability to control the ball quickly really goes against what he should be doing for this team if we want him playing shooting guard. It's like how several teams tried to get Desmond Mason to play shooting guard, but he just couldn't handle that role and Rashard Lewis is not a tall shooting guard. Most teams have the prototype shooting guard (which is more like a point) or they have small forward emulate guard (point forward). Like for instance Rip Hamilton will score from about anywhere nowadays, but he mostly does it from midrange and he doesn't put the ball on the floor that much compared to guard-like Tayshaun Prince. And the Suns of recent had guys like Diaw/Joe Johnson operate small forward while Raja Bell/Quentin Richardson type SG/SF's didn't handle the ball so much. The point forward role also applied once in Memphis Grizzlies rotation when they had Eddie Jones/James Posey play shooting guard and Mike Miller handle the ball like a point forward. Clippers experimented with this role when they had Corey Maggette play shooting guard and had Qrich coming off the bench in favor of Marko Jaric or Bobby Simmons or somebody who can emulate shooting guard, but are tall or big like small forwards. I don't think Dunleavy can emulate the true point forward because he's just too damned slow for small forward position and he's too damn weak for power forward. If we had Lamar Odom, I think that might work because he's the tallest, best ballhandling big guy, but his attitude has always been in question. Plus, he's known to be injured quite a bit in his years as a pro. But that quickness, first step, and ballhandle control is just excellent. Plus, he rebounds and blocks shots. The only thing he can't do well is shoot free throws. Groan... If Jrich wants to be shooting guard, hell, we need a better point forward. If Murphy wants to be a power forward, we need a better center. Well... we need a better center anyway because that position we need to have in order to win. I don't care if he's short like Amare Stoudamire or Emeka Okafor, we need somebody to emulate inside presence inside the paint and get on that offensive glass. Defensive rebounds are important, but not if the team isn't getting that many stops or the kind that leads to fastbreak offense. Jrich has upside to improve, but it depends on how patient or how much of a believer we want to be. I know that 20ppg game scorer is hard to find and we can't just swap those kinds of players unless the other team sees something in Jrich. All I know is we need another guy to move the ball like Ellis does, but won't be so undersized...or slow.</div> I agree with you CR. We need JRich to reach all-star status, but he's not there yet and he's injured to boot. At this point, I rather see JRich take time to recover completely. Even though he was given the green light by the doctor, it seems the knee is not 100% so he should give it some more rest and rehab and have the doctor look at it again. Once JRich is ready to play again, then we'll have to see how he does at SG. JRich will have to be able handle the ball some if he wants to play SG in Nelson's uptempo scheme. That's another area JRich has to improve upon.
