<div class="quote_poster">sportsaholic Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Allen Iverson? Are you serious? For a point guard he score's a lot but he doesn't play point guard. 6.2 assist a game isn't that good for a point guard and he can't win like Nash can. Yes, he's good but not the best.</div> Last year he averageed I think 7.4 assists and was like top 10 in the assists category which is decent for him, but you have to realize Iverson is really not a true point guard. The guy played a little shooting guard with Ollie and now he is playing a little shooting guard with Boykins. He isn't a true point guard who you expect 8-10 assists from. If he gets minutes as a PG in Denver than no doubt he'll average 8+ assists a game.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> And I'd also stick Kobe in there somewhere (I don't have his PER since he got back to being mostly healthy).</div> If you can give me a date, I can try to calculate it for you.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If you can give me a date, I can try to calculate it for you.</div> Well try November 21 I guess, the day he played the Clippers (though his defensive skills are still lagging at the moment, unfortunately). I estimate his PER will be 25/26. We'll just have to see how he finishes the year.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well try November 21 I guess, the day he played the Clippers (though his defensive skills are still lagging at the moment, unfortunately). I estimate his PER will be 25/26. We'll just have to see how he finishes the year.</div> Here are the top guys in PER only considering stats since 11/21 (minimum 150 minutes): <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>PlayerTeamGPMin PER<br/>-------------------------------------------------------<br/>1 wade,dwyane mia 17637 29.1<br/>2 ginobili,manu san 13321 28.5<br/>3 nowitzki,dirk dal 18609 26.6<br/>4 ming,yaohou 16542 26.5<br/>5 duncan,timsan 18594 26.4<br/>6 garnett,kevin min 17650 26.2<br/>7 arenas,gilbertwas 19757 25.6<br/>8 randolph,zach por 16536 25.6<br/>9 gasol,pau mem 8 186 25.5<br/>10bryant,kobe lal 18705 25.4<br/>11anthony,carmelo den 14535 25.2<br/>12may,seancha 13308 24.9<br/>13cardinal,brianmem 14167 24.7<br/>14stoudemire,amarepho 16495 24.3<br/>15nash,stevepho 16582 23.8<br/>16james,lebroncle 17683 23.8<br/>17lewis,rashard sea 15551 23.4<br/>18brand,elton lac 20741 23.4<br/>19marion,shawnpho 16593 23.1<br/>20o'neal,jermaine ind 16572 22.8<br/>21billups,chaunceydet 17649 22.8<br/>22pierce,paul bos 14532 22.6<br/>23howard,josh dal 17577 22.5<br/>24boozer,carlos uta 18680 22.4<br/>25redd,michaelmil 19743 22.4<br/>26parker,tony san 18591 22.0<br/>27camby,marcusden 15466 21.9<br/>28gordon,benchi 19553 21.6<br/>29carter,vincenjn 19740 21.4<br/>30paul,chrisnor 17649 21.3<br/></div>
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Here are the top guys in PER only considering stats since 11/21 (minimum 150 minutes): <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>PlayerTeamGPMin PER<br/>-------------------------------------------------------<br/>1 wade,dwyane mia 17637 29.1<br/>2 ginobili,manu san 13321 28.5<br/>3 nowitzki,dirk dal 18609 26.6<br/>4 ming,yaohou 16542 26.5<br/>5 duncan,timsan 18594 26.4<br/>6 garnett,kevin min 17650 26.2<br/>7 arenas,gilbertwas 19757 25.6<br/>8 randolph,zach por 16536 25.6<br/>9 gasol,pau mem 8 186 25.5<br/>10bryant,kobe lal 18705 25.4<br/>11anthony,carmelo den 14535 25.2<br/>12may,seancha 13308 24.9<br/>13cardinal,brianmem 14167 24.7<br/>14stoudemire,amarepho 16495 24.3<br/>15nash,stevepho 16582 23.8<br/>16james,lebroncle 17683 23.8<br/>17lewis,rashard sea 15551 23.4<br/>18brand,elton lac 20741 23.4<br/>19marion,shawnpho 16593 23.1<br/>20o'neal,jermaine ind 16572 22.8<br/>21billups,chaunceydet 17649 22.8<br/>22pierce,paul bos 14532 22.6<br/>23howard,josh dal 17577 22.5<br/>24boozer,carlos uta 18680 22.4<br/>25redd,michaelmil 19743 22.4<br/>26parker,tony san 18591 22.0<br/>27camby,marcusden 15466 21.9<br/>28gordon,benchi 19553 21.6<br/>29carter,vincenjn 19740 21.4<br/>30paul,chrisnor 17649 21.3<br/></div></div> Yeah, thanks a bunch durvasa. That's pretty much how I estimated his PER would be (for now at least). What does surprise one is how LeBron is doing though... 23.8? Wow, that's fascinating.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Unlike Nash, Lebron, Wade, or Arenas, he annualy one of the NBA's top defenders.</div> I think you accidentally added Wade to this statement. Wade is a shutdown defender as well as an excellent help defender. Kobe's D is good, but Wade's D > Kobe's D
The most talented are Allen Iverson, Kobe, Wade, LeBron and yes...KG. Kobe is a great leader and look how far he took his team last year, when Odom wasn't the guy who he should've been. This year, Odom was great and Kobe's role changed a little bit. Now without Odom, they still play pretty good basketball. Kobe is the best guard in the league imo, or Nash.
Wade? lol Wade? As good as he is there is still a big questionmark over his head. The same questionmark that hovers over Agent Zero's head. Is he a leader? Can he consistently lead his team by himself? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and if your going to be as good as he is, then you better have a good reputation.</div> Sounds like a 13 year old saying. The cliche' bravado have to have good attitude must be good with the people thing. If you're great, you're great... that's all there is to it.
<div class="quote_poster">GiantMidget Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think you accidentally added Wade to this statement. Wade is a shutdown defender as well as an excellent help defender. Kobe's D is good, but Wade's D > Kobe's D</div> Wade is not a shutdown defender. Neither is Kobe. Both are good when it comes to defense, but they are each overrated.
EARL BOYKINS, im being serious, this guy is 5 foot 5! hes close to the 5 foot mark then the 6 foot mark. and its obviously real hard to make the nba when your under 6 foot. theres only a hand ful and this guy is the smallest. and hes a pretty damn good scorer and player. i think if earl was taller he would be an allstar (maybe not the best player but he would be up there)
<div class="quote_poster">thedude9990 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">EARL BOYKINS, im being serious, this guy is 5 foot 5! hes close to the 5 foot mark then the 6 foot mark. and its obviously real hard to make the nba when your under 6 foot. theres only a hand ful and this guy is the smallest. and hes a pretty damn good scorer and player. i think if earl was taller he would be an allstar (maybe not the best player but he would be up there)</div> Agreed, man. I respect that guy a lot!
<div class="quote_poster">Kafiah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wade? lol Wade? As good as he is there is still a big questionmark over his head. The same questionmark that hovers over Agent Zero's head. Is he a leader? Can he consistently lead his team by himself? </div> Were you in a coma during the playoffs last season?
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Were you in a coma during the playoffs last season?</div> So what is he doing while Shaq is gone? Is he doing okay without the big guy? Take away Shaq and people are questioning Kobe's leadership. Take away Shaq from Wade and it's only fair to ask the same thing.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Were you in a coma during the playoffs last season?</div> Yeah, he was. He must have lapsed into one during one of Wade's 97 free throw attempts in the finals, along with the thousands of others like us.
<div class="quote_poster">Kafiah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So what is he doing while Shaq is gone? Is he doing okay without the big guy? Take away Shaq and people are questioning Kobe's leadership. Take away Shaq from Wade and it's only fair to ask the same thing.</div> Ok, so I guess you were in a coma. Wade absolutely carried the Heat in the Finals while Shaq was averaging 13 ppg and hardly having any impact late in games. There should be no question marks about how good Wade is. If you look at the rest of the players on the Heat's roster, it's obviously why they are struggling. Payton is geriatric, and Walker's aim is so off he probably misses the urinal when he pees. Outside of Wade, the only players they're getting solid production out of is Mourning and Haslem. I don't care how good Wade is, that team is not going to be an elite team unless Shaq returns to superstar form. IMO, that's unlikely.
Wade carried an older Shaq that didn't average as many points as he did w/ Kobe. Kobe won "3" championships with a prime Shaq who did most of the work for Lakers and had a bigger part in their championship. Wade did most of the part for Heat to win it, and did it with an older Shaq. Shaq barely had any impact during the Finals, and Wade in his 3rd year had led Heat to the Finals. During the Lakers threepeat, you can't argue that Shaq had a bigger hand in it. So I give more credit to Wade.
lol @ Walker missing the urinal...Wade is a proven leader...if I'm not mistaken a couple of years ago, I think the Heat won a series without Shaq.
<div class="quote_poster">Pakman Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Man... the decision between Lebron/Kobe/Wade is hard. I wake up one day thinking Lebron is better, next thinking Kobe, next Wade. It really is hard. But most days, I'll take LeBron</div> Yeah, I agree with you <div class="quote_poster">sportsaholic Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Tim Duncan is very overrated. His stat's are just as good as Marion's and Marion doesn't get any credit. So, if I'm gonna put him on the list, then I'm putting Marion. Yes, he is very good when it come's to winning but he isn't doing it by himself. He has the players around him, so don't go and kiss his a**. Am I saying he sucks? Of course not, but he's not as good as people say he is.</div> <div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well, most of you keep talking about points and rebounds, but Shaq's pace-adjusted-per-minute numbers are higher. In fact he's got the second highest efficiency rating (after Michael Jordan). Wilt played in a much more up-tempo league, its not fair to compare his and Shaq's PPG/RPG (e.g. Shawn Marion's stats look a bit better than Tim Duncan's, but Tim Duncan is more useful offensively because he produces in fewer ball possessions).</div> I took huevonkiller's post from a different thread (Chamberlain or Shaq?) But it's actually talking about the same thing EDIT: <div class="quote_poster">Playmaker15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think right now the best player in the league is Dwyane Wade, he's showing us now that he can carry the team without Shaq. This season he's almost a 30/10 guy every night which is pretty damn impressive for being a 4th year shooting guard. Kobe's defense at the moment is horrific, Dwyane Wade just lit him up on Christmas day. I think Duncan needs to show what he can do without a great supporting cast around him because he's always had great players around him unlike Kobe, Wade, or Lebron. LeBron can be the best as well but he has yet to show he is as much of a leader as Wade. Steve Nash is an amazing point guard, but his defense sucks, and look at the guys he has around him? Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire are All Stars even without Nash giving them the ball. Kevin Garnett is also a guy you can make a case for because of his versatilty, but, the lack of a supporting cast has hurt him all throughout his career and he can thank a lousy front office for that.</div> Despite the fact that LeBron is my favorite player I also think Wade has proven to be more of a leader than him. As for Wade's defense, I don't know, but I think his agressiveness helps him make stops. And also while I was watching some highlights, I saw Kobe get a big rejection on some guard and I heard a commentator say, This is the defensive explosiveness we've been missing from him this season. I also used to think Phoenix is so good because they have good players. But now I see it's not that they're good but the team knows each other well and so they "gel" well. Also, on the Duncan-Marion topic, I think sportsaholic made some good points, BUT, although I am a fan of Phoenix and Marion himself, I think Duncan has a big effect on the game. When I see Marion score 30, it doesn't change the game that much...
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">lol @ Walker missing the urinal...Wade is a proven leader...if I'm not mistaken a couple of years ago, I think the Heat won a series without Shaq.</div> Yep, I think it was vs. Washington about 2 years ago in the 2nd round, Shaq was out........and we swept them. Not only did we sweep them but if my memory serves me right Wade dropped 40 + like 3 times in that series. He's obviously shown he can lead his team (with or without Shaq), if you don't see it you must be blind.
Kobe is the best player in the league. The argument that he hasn't done it by himself is useless bein that he lead his team to the playoffs last year (when he wasn't supposed too) and this year his team has one of the best records in the league. Better records than Wade, Lebron, and I believe Carmello. End of discussion
