<div class="quote_poster">Laker_fan Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The Kings also played 13 of their 15 games against teams with records of .500+ in December. They also played 6 games against the Suns, Mavs, Spurs and Jazz. Hence, the deflated stats for December. Artest is averaging 16/7/3 this season. He had 19/3/2 against the Lakers in a game that went into overtime. Artest also picked up 6 fouls in the game, something that could be credited to Kobe. The performance was not well above average at all.</div> Since we're talking about Kobe "shutting down" players, I was referring to Artest's offense. And, yes, Artest offensively was much better against the Lakers than his season averages. The Kings played 6 games against the Suns, Mavs, Spurs, and Jazz, true. Artest actually only played in 4 of those games, however. He averaged 14 points in 32 MPG on 41% shooting from the field in those games, which is actually much better than his averages that month. You can't blame his poor numbers on playing against elite teams.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Eric Snow is down right awful to watch......you'd be insane to want the guy on your team....saying Shaq is a top 10 center is like saying Eddie Curry is a top 10 center.....the diesel is running on fumes...the rest of your post isn't worth me picking apart because it's just that bad. I don't mind debating the topic with people like Shape,Durvasa,huevonkiller, etc. because they all bring up good points, BUT the fanboys.....that craps is just annoying. EDIT I couldn't resist I MUST pick apart the rest of that lame post. keyword EX-ALLSTARS........Yes Jason Williams is capable of putting up 20/10, so am I..the point is that he DOESN'T....Gary hasn't been a "solid" defender in years, does anyone remember Francis/Parker/Billups lighting him up a couple of years ago when he was in LALA land????........Walker is a BUM, he can get hot once every blue moon.</div> uh oh, this is a sign of someone getting piss . So you think Shaq is not a top 10 center, then which 10 center in the league would you rather have over Shaq (minus his huge contract)? <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">One way to quickly compare who has the better supporting cast would be to just compare their average stats, per 48 minutes, adjusting for pace. GS rating is a PER-like summary statistic. TS% is scoring efficiency. It really isn't close: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>PTSOR TRAS ST BK TO PF TS% GS-rating<br/>LgAvg 19.5 2.28.2 4.11.41.03.04.553.9% 14.4<br/>Lakers18.1 2.38.3 4.21.41.23.14.556.0% 14.0<br/>Cavs16.8 3.09.1 3.51.21.12.74.850.5% 12.1<br/>Heat16.4 2.28.8 3.11.01.12.74.751.1% 11.4<br/></div> The numbers for Lakers, Cavs, and Heat exclude Kobe, LeBron, and Wade respectively. These stats are naturally more reflective of offensive potency, and there's no question that Kobe's teammates have been more effective offensive than LeBron's or Wade's. That's why the Lakers as a team are 6th in offensive efficiency, while the Cavs are 20th and the Heat are 27th. Defensively, the Cavs and Heat probably have an edge, but not nearly enough to offset the gap offensively. Particularly in the case of Wade's teammates. They have been just pathetic offensively.</div> I would like to know, is this statistic account for the fact that the Heats are missing Shaquille O'Neal and that the Lakers are with Odom?
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">One way to quickly compare who has the better supporting cast would be to just compare their average stats, per 48 minutes, adjusting for pace. GS rating is a PER-like summary statistic. TS% is scoring efficiency. It really isn't close: <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>PTSOR TRAS ST BK TO PF TS% GS-rating<br/>LgAvg 19.5 2.28.2 4.11.41.03.04.553.9% 14.4<br/>Lakers18.1 2.38.3 4.21.41.23.14.556.0% 14.0<br/>Cavs16.8 3.09.1 3.51.21.12.74.850.5% 12.1<br/>Heat16.4 2.28.8 3.11.01.12.74.751.1% 11.4<br/></div> The numbers for Lakers, Cavs, and Heat exclude Kobe, LeBron, and Wade respectively. These stats are naturally more reflective of offensive potency, and there's no question that Kobe's teammates have been more effective offensive than LeBron's or Wade's. That's why the Lakers as a team are 6th in offensive efficiency, while the Cavs are 20th and the Heat are 27th. Defensively, the Cavs and Heat probably have an edge, but not nearly enough to offset the gap offensively. Particularly in the case of Wade's teammates. They have been just pathetic offensively.</div> I think the last few Cavs games have already shown us how good supporting cast Lebron has. The reason you guys think Cavs supporting cast = or < lakers is that Lebron demands the ball too much and make the other players look worse. Now he is struggling, the other players can step up easily and show us the true potential.
<div class="quote_poster">kobe4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I would like to know, is this statistic account for the fact that the Heats are missing Shaquille O'Neal and that the Lakers are with Odom?</div> How/why should it account for that? If you're making arguments based on what their team has done this season, then it only makes sense to examine the players that have been playing this year and not the players that theoretically should have been playing if there were no injureis. <div class="quote_poster">TopLake Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think the last few Cavs games have already shown us how good supporting cast Lebron has. The reason you guys think Cavs supporting cast = or < lakers is that Lebron demands the ball too much and make the other players look worse. Now he is struggling, the other players can step up easily and show us the true potential.</div> LeBron's usage rate (possessions used via field goal attempts, free throws, assists, and turnovers) is exactly the same as Kobe's this year. He has played a lot more minutes, however, so overall his teammates have had less opportunities to do stuff on the offensive end. But that's no excuse for their shoddy offensive efficiency.
<div class="quote_poster">kobe4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I would like to know, is this statistic account for the fact that the Heats are missing Shaquille O'Neal and that the Lakers are with Odom?</div> How/why should it account for that? If you're making arguments based on what their team has done this season, then it only makes sense to examine the players that have been playing this year and not the players that theoretically should have been playing if there were no injureis.
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Brian First off, stats don't mean everything, but they do mean something, and are really the only concrete method of judging a player's performance. Secondly, who do I think is the best player in the NBA? In my opinion, it's between Kobe, Wade, and Lebron, and right now it's just too close to call. Wade is my favourite player, so obviously I favour him. What pisses me off though is certain Kobe fans who think he is "in another league" or drastically overrate his defense or cling to past accomplishments, or support their arguments with blind speculation or wild, factless statements and refuse to acknowledge Durvasa's stats that clearly refutes these statements. I also believe that Arenas is severely underrated, and deserves mentioning in this category. I'm sick of people saying "Well keep this up for the rest of the season or the next few years and then we'll consider mentioning him." We're talking about the best current player, and currently, Gil is top 4 or 5 in the NBA. You could make an argument that he's the best as well.</div> yeah, well if I'm not mistaken aren't you somebody who said Nash isn't one of the best cause "it's the system" not Nash that's the reason for the Suns winning so many games? So everyone has an excuse as to why their non-favorite player isn't the best.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">uh oh, this is a sign of someone getting piss . So you think Shaq is not a top 10 center, then which 10 center in the league would you rather have over Shaq (minus his huge contract)? </div> yes I think he's a top 10 center, but that's still not saying much considering the NBA is "lacking" in quality centers.
<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">yeah, well if I'm not mistaken aren't you somebody who said Nash isn't one of the best cause "it's the system" not Nash that's the reason for the Suns winning so many games? So everyone has an excuse as to why their non-favorite player isn't the best.</div> Nope, I don't believe I've ever said that. I give most of the credit to Nash in making the Suns successful. The reason he's not in my top 4 is that he doesn't have the ability to really take over a game in the 4th.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Since we're talking about Kobe "shutting down" players, I was referring to Artest's offense. And, yes, Artest offensively was much better against the Lakers than his season averages. The Kings played 6 games against the Suns, Mavs, Spurs, and Jazz, true. Artest actually only played in 4 of those games, however. He averaged 14 points in 32 MPG on 41% shooting from the field in those games, which is actually much better than his averages that month. You can't blame his poor numbers on playing against elite teams.</div> Since we're talking about being "much" better than his season averages, he scored 3 more points in a game that went into overtime. He also managed to pick up 6 fouls. I really don't see how he was "much" better. Talking about how much someone averages in a month is really not relavent. You're basing statistics on around 10 games. In November, Artest averaged 18 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists and 3 steals. It wouldn't be relavent to bring up statistics as the number of games played in a month are minute. For example, Kobe averaged 31 points in December and only scored 8 against Denver. Can we say Allen Iverson or whoever was guarding him shut him down? No.
<div class="quote_poster">Laker_fan Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Since we're talking about being "much" better than his season averages, he scored 3 more points in a game that went into overtime. He also managed to pick up 6 fouls. I really don't see how he was "much" better.</div> Who cares that it went into overtime? He played 35 minutes in the game. And I don't see how his foul trouble has any relation to the Laker's defense against him. Again, I'm talking strictly about what Artest did offensively while he was on the court. He exceeded his season averages. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Talking about how much someone averages in a month is really not relavent. You're basing statistics on around 10 games. In November, Artest averaged 18 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists and 3 steals. It wouldn't be relavent to bring up statistics as the number of games played in a month are minute.</div> The season is only two months old. You think what he did in the month of November is more relevant than what he did in the month of December? That makes no sense. And I don't know why you're bringing up rebounds and steals. Anyways, what he did against the Lakers offensively exceeds what he did in November as well, so that doesn't prove anything. He averaged 17.6 on 39% shooting in November in in 38 MPG. He scored 19 on 50% shooting in 35 minutes against the Lakers. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">For example, Kobe averaged 31 points in December and only scored 8 against Denver. Can we say Allen Iverson or whoever was guarding him shut him down? No.</div> True. And if Kobe scored 31 against Denver, would it make any sense to say that Iverson shut him down? Obviously not. If a player meets or (in this case) exceeds his season averages, it's strange to say that he was "shut down" by the opposing defender. That's all I'm saying.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How/why should it account for that? If you're making arguments based on what their team has done this season, then it only makes sense to examine the players that have been playing this year and not the players that theoretically should have been playing if there were no injureis.</div> It is not a fair accessment to include LO but exclude SO. And when I'm referring to who have a better casts, I'm basically including both side when at full strength. When both are at their best, the Heats are still 1/2 notch above the Lakers due to Shaq factor. You can't predict how Shaq is going to play. One game he can gives you 10/5 and next goes off for 30/20. And btw, Heats are in the east, Wade shouldn't be struggling to keep them in the playoff hunt. Kobe does a better job at holding his team together than D-Wade. Don't even argue with that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">yes I think he's a top 10 center, but that's still not saying much considering the NBA is "lacking" in quality centers.</div> Not saying much? When you have a 350lbs that nobody can guard 1-1 and can dominate the game whenever he wants to, and that's not saying much? Wow...you're win, I'm giving up
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not saying much? When you have a 350lbs that nobody can guard 1-1 and can dominate the game whenever he wants to, and that's not saying much? Wow...you're win, I'm giving up </div> Shaq is no longer dominate anymore, he can't take over at will like he once did in his career....
<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">yeah, well if I'm not mistaken aren't you somebody who said Nash isn't one of the best cause "it's the system" not Nash that's the reason for the Suns winning so many games? So everyone has an excuse as to why their non-favorite player isn't the best.</div> The reason why I said that was because Nash was never that great of a player in Dallas. He wasn't even considered one of the top 10 players in the league. Then all of a sudden he comes to Phoenix and he wins MVP in back to back seasons. I'm not taking anything away from Nash though, he's a great player. It's just that I think the offensive system Phoenix has contributes a lot to Nash's success
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq is no longer dominate anymore, he can't take over at will like he once did in his career....</div> So what if he isn't the player he once was. He still creates attention and teams still have problems matching up to him. He may no longer put up huge numbers, but he still is a huge presence on the court
Brian thats a good answer and for once and for all close this thread is obvious kobe is the best is that simple
I just don't see how (other than hatred) Kobe isn't the best player in the league. If you know basketball, you know that this really isn't a debate. Judging on what he's done and what he's doin this year, Wade and Lebron couldn't hold a candle to him.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I just don't see how (other than hatred) Kobe isn't the best player in the league. If you know basketball, you know that this really isn't a debate. Judging on what he's done and what he's doin this year, Wade and Lebron couldn't hold a candle to him.</div> What does that mean? I agree Kobe is a great player, very well could be the best in the league, but I just don't see it as clear-cut as you other guys. I think Kobe does a great job, but that is not to say I don't think Lebron, Wade, Nash, Tim Duncan, Yao, Arenas, Dirk, and Boozer haven't been doing great jobs as well.
<div class="quote_poster">Omarion Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What does that mean? I agree Kobe is a great player, very well could be the best in the league, but I just don't see it as clear-cut as you other guys. I think Kobe does a great job, but that is not to say I don't think Lebron, Wade, Nash, Tim Duncan, Yao, Arenas, Dirk, and Boozer haven't been doing great jobs as well.</div> I agree with you. I do feel that Kobe is the best player in the league, but he isn't LEAGUES ahead of everyone else.
Well last night Miami dropped its losing streak with the return of Wade, that shows just how important his presence on the court is, they have yet to win a game without him as well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So what if he isn't the player he once was. He still creates attention and teams still have problems matching up to him. He may no longer put up huge numbers, but he still is a huge presence on the court </div> I'm not so sure about that "huge" presence....he can make a difference, but at times in the finals last year I thought the heat were a better team with Zo on the floor rather than Shaq.....Shaq is really no more than a role player at this point in his career.
