Nice win! Too bad we couldn't get Powe to backup our power forward lineup. The guy would be instant fan favorite here.
<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Nice win! Too bad we couldn't get Powe to backup our power forward lineup. The guy would be instant fan favorite here.</div> I still scratch my head over this one. We could have gotten a local fan favorite that could help us out. Instead we pick a 7'2" softie who is in another country and may never play in the NBA. Good one Mullin.
Yeah, Powe looks pretty good out there. I like his vibe, he's got toughness which the Warrior bigs lack.
<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think Ike can be pretty late passing the ball out of the double team at times, but maybe the guy is hungry to start scoring. And whenever he tries to get a rebound, it's like watching Foyle trying to come up with the ball in traffic sometimes.</div>Ike was interviewed on KNBR a few days ago and he did acknowledge that he needs to be more aware of passing out of double teams, and he did mention that Nellie has been warning him that until he does get better at recognizing developing double teams and looking to always score when he gets the ball, other teams will exploit that. And there is something to that. It's a double-edged sword because it's certainly true that the doubleteams will come frequently if you don't look for open teammates, yet if Ike gets too tentative on offense and hesitates, he loses part of what makes him good. I think he needs that dogged aggression to be effective. I agree with you CR2 that when Ike tries to get to fancy on offense it can get ugly. He has some great post moves but I do see him often overthink the situation and get in trouble, for instance sometimes a single pump fake could get the job done without a need to put the ball on the floor.
<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Ike was interviewed on KNBR a few days ago and he did acknowledge that he needs to be more aware of passing out of double teams, and he did mention that Nellie has been warning him that until he does get better at recognizing developing double teams and looking to always score when he gets the ball, other teams will exploit that. And there is something to that. It's a double-edged sword because it's certainly true that the doubleteams will come frequently if you don't look for open teammates, yet if Ike gets too tentative on offense and hesitates, he loses part of what makes him good. I think he needs that dogged aggression to be effective. I agree with you CR2 that when Ike tries to get to fancy on offense it can get ugly. He has some great post moves but I do see him often overthink the situation and get in trouble, for instance sometimes a single pump fake could get the job done without a need to put the ball on the floor.</div> Yeah, Ike was such an awesome scorer in college it didn't matter who the other team sent at him. Even in the NBA as a rookie his scoring talent was so evident. But the key to being a truly great scorer is becoming a great passer. The better your court vision and passing, the more the defense must honor that and stay true to their assignments / passing lanes. It's just like how in football the run sets up the pass, and in basketball the ability to drive sets up the jumper. rather than crowding you, the defender must honor that drive and play off you a bit, giving you those extra few inches to rise up for a jumper. Same thing with the ability to pass. If you can become a true threat to pass whenever you touch the ball, you'll lull defenders to sleep and suddenly the lane will open up wide for you. Uh.... Steve Nash anyone?
Hey, if you guys missed the Baron touch-pass alleyoop to JRich last night, you should definitely try to find a clip of it, it's one of the best highlights of the year. Unbelievable play, looked like the old JRich we know and love, he got way up high and brought it down hard. I think it happened just a minute or two before halftime.
<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, Ike was such an awesome scorer in college it didn't matter who the other team sent at him. Even in the NBA as a rookie his scoring talent was so evident. But the key to being a truly great scorer is becoming a great passer. The better your court vision and passing, the more the defense must honor that and stay true to their assignments / passing lanes. It's just like how in football the run sets up the pass, and in basketball the ability to drive sets up the jumper. rather than crowding you, the defender must honor that drive and play off you a bit, giving you those extra few inches to rise up for a jumper. Same thing with the ability to pass. If you can become a true threat to pass whenever you touch the ball, you'll lull defenders to sleep and suddenly the lane will open up wide for you. Uh.... Steve Nash anyone?</div> Steve Nash? Uhh... no. Unless you mean Ike is short. I'm ready to trade Ike. While Ike is a good offensive player, he reminds me that he'll grow into being a Zach Randolph type of player. Same on the court stuff, not off the court. If we could get a David Lee, Hakim Warrick or Alexander Johnson for Ike, I'm down.
<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Steve Nash? Uhh... no. Unless you mean Ike is short.</div> Heh heh, no. What I mean is that Steve Nash is the ultimate example of a guy who can get wide open shots any time he wants, simply because he is a deadly passer. Nash is an assassin point guard who can dribble circles around people and all the while see every passing lane available, plus a few that aren't but that he can still use. Because of his deadly passing ability, defenders forget where they're supposed to be when he enters the lane, often times sagging off and allowing an easy lay-up of floater. Nash is an unathletic short white dude with no hops, yet he can score pretty much at will and finish over 7-footers simply because of his triple threat at all times, and if defenders are determined not to let him score, then he'll drop an easy 15-18 assists. So I agree with the point HiRez brings up about Ike's passing out of the double team. Once he can establish himself as a good passer, his scoring will come so much easier. Until then, they'll just double and crowd and force turnovers or misses.
<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Ike was interviewed on KNBR a few days ago and he did acknowledge that he needs to be more aware of passing out of double teams, and he did mention that Nellie has been warning him that until he does get better at recognizing developing double teams and looking to always score when he gets the ball, other teams will exploit that. And there is something to that. It's a double-edged sword because it's certainly true that the doubleteams will come frequently if you don't look for open teammates, yet if Ike gets too tentative on offense and hesitates, he loses part of what makes him good. I think he needs that dogged aggression to be effective. I agree with you CR2 that when Ike tries to get to fancy on offense it can get ugly. He has some great post moves but I do see him often overthink the situation and get in trouble, for instance sometimes a single pump fake could get the job done without a need to put the ball on the floor.</div> Ike has a whole array of finish inside skills which will--IF AND WHEN HE GETS MINUTES-get polished and adapted. As-is,he's apt to score on 55% with a lot of FTA's. You want a low post power finisher-well,if he's not challenging the D what is he? Dunleavy. Seems Ike is getting put into some no-win thing. What's with getting a guy who can be a 20/9 POWER F then you ask him to basically become Danny Fortson playing center?
I would say don't worry: Ike will get it rolling again. I know he's had bumps in the road, reported minor conflict with Nellie, awkward fit into small ball, etc., but remember that he's still out of shape, recovering from injury and behind on the offensive/defensive sets. Even though he's on the court, he needs to get fully healthy, strong, and read up on the play book. Remember when he went to town against the Pistons and put the Wallace brothers in his back pocket, scoring 27 points on 13-15 shooting, as a rookie? That's the Ike I know. That was pure low post scoring. Once he gets back to rolling and rocking in the paint, Nellie will start using him more and his "slump" will be over. Especially with Murphy being hurt, I really think it's only a matter of time before Ike is out of the doghouse and into the highlights on sportscenter.
Warriors need to realize there's 2 sides to a coin. Murphy has become a high efficiency shooter and a passer-but gets no respect, Foyle plays good D-but can't shoot like Murphy or pass as well-gets no respect. Ike is the relentless scorer who can beat good D,get to the line make the FT,but he does not kick out when he's able to-relentlessly score (usually) so-no respect. Result-----Warriors instead play Dunleavy who's got none of the above,is basically another G. Well-I guess we just have to wait till a Tim Duncan do-it-all guy drops in our lap,natural born with all the superstar instincts and skills because we'd rather play a G as a PF than have a PF who's just 3/4 of perfect.
...anyhow,we won even with Nellie making Beans go it alone as the big man. Despite his 17 rbd-we were out rebounded. Fortuinately,J Rich was pretty mobile and Pierce wasn't playing. Pietrus has been playing very well,he's becoming our Richard Jefferson,a big plus on D,a solid contributor overall,often our second scorer,second rebounder. A lot of assists for Dun-though pretty bad shooting and a mixed bag on D.
Nellie should take note that while the Suns play a small-fast game-they have Marion grabbing 10-12 boards from the F spot.
Yeah, Pietrus and Barnes have been rebounding pretty dang well, too, but I totally agree Dunleavy should not be in there at PF. But I guess it works at times because of style of play, but I just don't think GS can get away with that kind of stuff for 82 games or in the playoffs. Eventually, they're going to need a big, solid PF in there to rebound, bang, and block shots on nights when small ball is just silly. I mean, that first loss to the Rockets, Nellie went with this starting line-up!?! 1)Baron 2)Roberson 3)Monta Ellis 4)Pietrus 5)Biedrins I mean, that was cute an all, but Yao had about 50 points in the first quarter -- plus they had Battier in there to start, with Juwan Howard off the bench, and the Rockets out-rebounded them by 15 boards, and won by 28 points. Now, Nellie had Murphy, Foyle, and POB available, they played off the bench, but he refused to start Murphy or even Foyle+Beans and the Rockets were up by 15 at the end of 1 and it was over. At times during the game Dun or Barnes at PF is great vs. certain line-ups, but if they want to be a legit 8th seed GS absolutely must find a solid 6-10 PF who can rebound.
<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Ike was interviewed on KNBR a few days ago and he did acknowledge that he needs to be more aware of passing out of double teams, and he did mention that Nellie has been warning him that until he does get better at recognizing developing double teams and looking to always score when he gets the ball, other teams will exploit that. And there is something to that. It's a double-edged sword because it's certainly true that the doubleteams will come frequently if you don't look for open teammates, yet if Ike gets too tentative on offense and hesitates, he loses part of what makes him good. I think he needs that dogged aggression to be effective. I agree with you CR2 that when Ike tries to get to fancy on offense it can get ugly. He has some great post moves but I do see him often overthink the situation and get in trouble, for instance sometimes a single pump fake could get the job done without a need to put the ball on the floor.</div> Actually, HiRez, did Ike put the ball on the floor all that much? I remember him putting up a lot of shots on goal before, but the problem now was either his pivot foot got dislodged or he shuffled his pivot foot accidentally or he got stripped or partially blocked (but not necessarily from holding the ball low because he he usually keeps it high). Heck, I think this happens with a lot of bigs who use the spin moves and passing out of the double team. I think his moves are kind of similar to Zach Randolph (mostly), and he has the same problem with passing out of the double and sometimes travelling. I remember Ike especially got in trouble whenever he got in the double team and then he tried to toss something up when he thought he got the foul call. I can understand that. Maybe he does get in trouble when he tries to dribble the ball and back someone down and then when somebody comes to help, he stops the dribble and then tries to force something when he uses his pivot foot and his hip/shoulder to clear some space and try to draw some contact when they try to crowd him. When he does draw the double teams and triple teams, he tries to score anyway. His instinct is to get to the line rather than pass, I guess. Heh, Ike's got the Corey Maggette/Kobe Bryant mentality. I think Ike is actually a solid passer, but he's only good from the top of the key at this point. So if Biedrins develops some reliable post moves without turning the ball over in iso, Ike could be there to feed him and both are assumed to be intelligent enough to know where each other will be moving off the ball. And we wouldn't need to rely on Zarko who is out anyway or Dunleavy for PF who can understand the high post/high low passing game. That's why I'm not big on dealing a playmaker, unless we're getting a 20ppg scorer who can shoot, defend, and has a little bit of power/above the rim play and finesse to his scoring.
<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, Ike was such an awesome scorer in college it didn't matter who the other team sent at him. Even in the NBA as a rookie his scoring talent was so evident. But the key to being a truly great scorer is becoming a great passer. The better your court vision and passing, the more the defense must honor that and stay true to their assignments / passing lanes. It's just like how in football the run sets up the pass, and in basketball the ability to drive sets up the jumper. rather than crowding you, the defender must honor that drive and play off you a bit, giving you those extra few inches to rise up for a jumper. Same thing with the ability to pass. If you can become a true threat to pass whenever you touch the ball, you'll lull defenders to sleep and suddenly the lane will open up wide for you. Uh.... Steve Nash anyone?</div> Yeah, I agree with everything. If Steve Nash was a classic college point guard, his role is to setup people first and run the offense like a quarterback. But the guy just is so creative, he probably doesn't have much scripted. His job ain't to score unless he wants to stretch the defense, attract attention away from the play, or punish guys for playing off him. I'd be disappointed if he tried to score as much as Baron Davis unless he could hit at the % he's doing since he joined Phoenix. But what he's doing now is incredible. He's such a good ballhandler/terrific shooter that he's probably more effective than he ever was because of who he has on his team right now. In Dallas, he was underrated. Now he's older and a bit slower, but he's still incredible because he can shoot, he's fantastic turning directions, selling the fake, great first step, nice fadeaway, and he's got a quick mind like all elite point guards. Now with Shaquille O'neil, T-mac, AI, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, young Chris Webber those guys are supposed to be scorers, but they have very good passing skills. Their roles on any franchise is pretty unique. It's the difference between getting a guy like Zach Randolph or Jermaine O'neil who aren't typically known as passers and probably won't lead their teams very far if they don't have the ability to make the game easier for others like guys like Shaq and Duncan do. Even Yao, Brand and Boozer have got some very good passing skills, but if they're dominating the posts, they're going up with it. I think if Beans or Ike get stronger and understand the team game, they'll become those type of players (to some degree). I have that much faith in their ceiling and skill. I think Beans could be a solid passer one of these days. I think Ike could improve his passing out of the post, but I think his real skills are operating from the high or mid post where he can pump fake drive or spin move pull up jumper or feed the entry pass. The team really has no limits in the frontcourt on how they could force defenses to react if both Biedrins and Ike (and maybe POB someday) master as many post moves as they can and develop some form of midrange game. Biedrins has the quickness and length. Ike has the quick footwork, low center of gravity and strength to clear people out. Lots of mismatches inside if we can play that game. Right now Baron is basically our passing/scoring threat (Steve Nash), but damn I wish he could shoot 45% or more, more often in addition to hitting free throws.
Beans has already shown the ability to make some very creative, sharp passes on the fly. More importantly, dude is like an eager sponge who works tiredlessly to get better. Just like how he's dramatically upped his FT% over a short span, I think he's able to improve in any other area the coaching staff requires. I have no worries about anything in Beans' game. This kid is going to be one of the best draft picks in the history of the franchise. Ike, not so much. While he can still be a terrific low-post scorer, I haven't seen the cognitive skills yet; the ability to at least pass out of the double, let alone recognize a dive-cut midway through his move and passing rather than trying to complete his move. That's when you know you've got it. Making a low-post move with a mindset to score, and midway through the move, altering your plan of action because you instinctively recognize the proper play; an easy dish to a dive-cutter or even simply slowing up or pumpfaking rather than commiting to the movement 100%. For instance, once Pietrus learns how to change speeds -- to nurse the gas peddle, pressing sometimes and laying off at other times -- he'll be a 20pt scorer. That's probably what Nellie is waiting for. So Ike hasn't shown that instinct to pass yet. Heck, I don't know if he ever will. It would sure help his game, but damn! if that guy can't score left-handed over a triple team of forwards lol.
<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> So Ike hasn't shown that instinct to pass yet. Heck, I don't know if he ever will. It would sure help his game, but damn! if that guy can't score left-handed over a triple team of forwards lol.</div> I think that because he knows he gets so little minutes that he just looks to score. If he got consistent minutes I'm sure he'd pass more.
