Post Your Ideal Warriors Lineups

If we didn't have the injury problem here's mine:

pg: Baron Davis
sg: Jason Richardson
sf: Matt Barnes
pf: Zarko Cabarkapa
c: Andris Biedrins

bench:
pg: Monta Ellis
sg: Mickael Pietrus
sf: Mike Dunleavy Jr.
pf: Ike Diogu
c: Adonal Foyle

I guess I left Murphy out because I felt he and Dunleavy don't coexist very well off the bench and he would only serve to get Biedrins into worse foul trouble if he loses sight of the wing or his own man trying to play zone. I think if Zarko was any healthy, he'd be a good compliment to the running game (a type of Toni Kukoc point forward) and he can set up his buddy Biedrins or find guys like Jrich, Barnes or Baron for cutting to the rim. Zarko is soft, but I think he can move his feet well enough to give opposing shooters some challenge.

I put Mike Dunleavy Jr. on the bench because he can find guys like Ellis or Diogu and it might be something like he had at Duke where he had Boozer and Jay Williams to feed to and feed off from. I put Foyle in because he's a good bench center and Patrick O'Bryant is nowhere near nba ready. I'd play him if he was nba ready. I'd put in Pietrus as a guy who can help rebound and play tough perimeter defense on his assignment. Ellis and Pietrus would be very tough on defense as ballhawks. I think Foyle and Diogu would be good defending inside. Since neither Foyle or Pietrus are counted on for offense, I'm relying on Dun, Ellis, Diougu for the three man game.

The style of play I'd use with the starters would be mid screen offense when running through Zarko or Biedrins. The Z man has a monster first step and is a good midrange shooter from the top of the key to the elbow (although somewhat streaky last year maybe due to injury or mental issues). He can also drain it off the catch and shoot or with a running floater down the lane. He's got excellent ballhandling skills for his size (although not Dunleavy level) and he's got great passing skills (again not Dunleavy level), but he's more athletic and taller and can play some center. The other component is to get the ball in Baron's hands more and make sure he gets the ball back in a give and go from guys like Barnes, Biedrins or Zarko. I'd like to see some good backdoor or v cuts or even a slipcut a la possible Baron/Barnes chemistry. No more guard ballpounding and shots off the dribble that wind up in a less than 40% chance of making it. We want good ball movement, plenty of motion, and the defense always reacting rather than daring us to shoot from outside. We want to turn our guards and Biedrins into efficient scorers.

It's a stretch to say Z's a starter even when healthy, but if the Suns did it once and we're doing it for Barnes now and we used to do it for Cardinal, then Zarko could be promoted if he fits the other four players out on the floor. We could sub in Dunleavy or Barnes for point forward, but whoever can create the shot and free up the scoring guards from having to direct offense on the floor.

If we used all the bench players (and aside from Foyle), I'd go with the flex offense and create some shots using constant screens and give and gos. Maybe a very simple Eric Musselman pass and cut offense is in order for guys who need to have complicated offenses be dumbed down a bit (ie free up and get the ball to Ellis and Diogu!). We'll make Ike, Dun, Ellis the center of most plays since we need two guards, and a big that can emulate some center. We can run a variety of simple motion plays or isolations. Maybe even a few high low sets if we throw POB in there.

 

If we had to choose now I'd go with:

pg: Baron Davis
sg: Jason Richardson
sf: Matt Barnes
pf: Ike Diogu
c: Andris Biedrins

Ellis is awesome but I like the sparkplug effect he has when Baron sits down. We need somebody who can emulate Baron off the bench.

 

Right now I don't think JRich should be starting.

But if everyone were 100%, I'd probably go with the current 5:

1)Baron
2)JRich
3)Pietrus
4)Barnes
5)Biedrins

Barnes has been playing so damn well he deserves to start. Then, if they're playing a bigger team (like the clips with Brand/Kaman) We could start Ike or Murphy at the 4 to guard Brand, or even just try the running game and see if the size issue is a problem. Nellie's pretty good at hiding weaknesses, He gets away with small ball at times when he really shouldn't be able to.

 

All right fine, subbing in Pietrus to SG for Barnes at SF, move Jrich from SG to SF. It's not a big deal. The SF and the PF on the team will probably be 4th and 5th scoring options anyway, unless Ike gets promoted. I just feel Pietrus does some really bonehead stuff that really affects the other players out there. Everytime I watch, Pietrus is doing something wrong and gets yanked by Nelson or high IQ players like Baron and Dunleavy have to talk to him. Like tonight's game he totally threw the ball away to the other team, he called for the ball and then went opposite from where the passer thought he would receive (Pietrus is hard to read on what he's thinking) and had a bunch of plays where he just made some bad decisions on how to finish around the rim. His effect on this team has clearly been about hustle and quickness. He's pretty hard nosed when he puts his mind to it (sort of like how Biedrins plays)

But heck Barnes swap for Pietrus is really no big deal since either is capable of having a big game. Same with Dunleavy. It doesn't matter as long as Baron, Jrich (or Ellis or whoever) + Biedrins set the tone. 2 guards and a big man with the other two feeding from that big 3 production is fine by me.

And I can't really justify Zarko being anywhere near the starting lineup because he's been hurt and he was so bad in recent memory. But he was really good during that one stretch where he was basically like how Barnes, Dunleavy, or Pietrus is playing right now. High energy, athletic mismatch that can pass or do other things to help fuel the team. But I guess the hardest thing is trying to find consistent players on this team. Guys could be playing like how Wally Sczerbiak was playing on the outside tonight. Just no dice.

 

Don Nelson said tonight on the pre-game that Pietrus is his second best player after Baron.

I think the mistakes are due to his over-exuberance, which I personally don't fault because his energy is contagious, his defense sparks rallies and his corner three has been deadly all season.

 

And MP can play some power forward, too.

 

Pietrus is second best player after Baron?? Nelson said that!?? Damn this team must be worse than I thought.

No just kidding. Props for Pietrus. If he wants that big contract next offseason he's going to have to prove he's got the upside and the results. He's got all-star physical abilities and some good basic skill, but at the nba level he's a bit behind still. French all-star is one thing, but nba is another. I'm sure if he started younger at basketball like Tony Parker or had the natural mindset like Boris Diaw, he'd be already be there maybe. But I can't complain. At least the guy can go left and he's the only quick 6'6 guy we have that's any good defensively. Jrich is not quick in the feet compared to him. Pietrus' quickness/leaping ability is one reason he can get to the ball faster on the rebound and play the passing lanes better than anyone on our team (except for maybe Ellis or Baron because those guys are pretty quick too).

 

I like: Baron/Ellis/JRich/Pietrus/Biedrins.

But when Ike can get with the system then things change up a bit. But that has yet to happen. Of course this lineup doesn't work against every team, but I think it's the Warriors' best lineup or at least most fun to watch, at least if JRich isn't hogging all the shots and shooting bricks. But since this is the ideal lineup and historically JRich has been a better shooter than this season, then I say he stays in the lineup. Of course now I would put Barnes in for JRich if we were talking about production only from this season.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Clif25 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I like: Baron/Ellis/JRich/Pietrus/Biedrins.

But when Ike can get with the system then things change up a bit. But that has yet to happen. Of course this lineup doesn't work against every team, but I think it's the Warriors' best lineup or at least most fun to watch, at least if JRich isn't hogging all the shots and shooting bricks. But since this is the ideal lineup and historically JRich has been a better shooter than this season, then I say he stays in the lineup. Of course now I would put Barnes in for JRich if we were talking about production only from this season.</div>

I like that one too and I feel the same about Jrich.

I'm just worried about when we have to face more opponents in our own conference and we start going on the road a lot more. So far, we've had a relatively easy schedule compared to seasons passed. We still have been losing very winnable games and we've won a few close games by one point or two when we should have maintained a double digit lead throughout the game. I think maybe this is natural for teams that don't play a whole lot of defense and not every player on the floor is an efficient/consistent/versatile scorer and setup guy to maintain the offensive production.

 

<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I like that one too and I feel the same about Jrich.

I'm just worried about when we have to face more opponents in our own conference and we start going on the road a lot more. So far, we've had a relatively easy schedule compared to seasons passed. We still have been losing very winnable games and we've won a few close games by one point or two when we should have maintained a double digit lead throughout the game. I think maybe this is natural for teams that don't play a whole lot of defense and not every player on the floor is an efficient/consistent/versatile scorer and setup guy to maintain the offensive production.</div>

I agree that lineup will not work against everyone, such as when we face the Spurs or other teams with two good post players (how many teams like that is there anymore by the way?). Also I believe statistically the Warriors have one of the most difficult schedules so far at least. However not all statistics share the whole story. I agree there have been some heartbreakers, starting from the first game. I will not try to push you to be optimistic but I think the Warriors have done a good job so far. If they won a few more games such as some of those close games, that would just be frosting on the cake by my viewpoint. Well maybe after three of them maybe...

Oh but what you are looking for is defensive rebounding. The Warriors have statistically the worst rebounding in the whole league. That is what's hurting the team this season. I see losing close games being related to rebounding by a much higher degree than any lack of offensive production or even the team being inconsistant. I think the defense has been fine as well. I agreed with Steinmetz last night about the defense not being very bad like some may think. I also agreed when he said that it's been the rebounding which has been the problem. The other downside so far has been a stretch of many turnovers. But again I say I am satisfied with the team this far.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Clif25 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I agree that lineup will not work against everyone, such as when we face the Spurs or other teams with two good post players (how many teams like that is there anymore by the way?). Also I believe statistically the Warriors have one of the most difficult schedules so far at least. However not all statistics share the whole story. I agree there have been some heartbreakers, starting from the first game. I will not try to push you to be optimistic but I think the Warriors have done a good job so far. If they won a few more games such as some of those close games, that would just be frosting on the cake by my viewpoint. Well maybe after three of them maybe...

Oh but what you are looking for is defensive rebounding. The Warriors have statistically the worst rebounding in the whole league. That is what's hurting the team this season. I see losing close games being related to rebounding by a much higher degree than any lack of offensive production or even the team being inconsistant. I think the defense has been fine as well. I agreed with Steinmetz last night about the defense not being very bad like some may think. I also agreed when he said that it's been the rebounding which has been the problem. The other downside so far has been a stretch of many turnovers. But again I say I am satisfied with the team this far.</div>

I think the Warriors are doing a good job as well so far, but it's like the first three quarters of a game, and worrying about the 4th. It's really all about the 4th and we haven't gone into the 4th yet.

I also think Steinmetz is right about the defense. It's really good without Murphy in there. All starters have steals, blocks, and rebounds. If we take away Murphy's 10 then we have Pietrus or Barnes coming up with 10. Don't forget Murphy's double double won't happen unless he's playing his usual minutes. But we know what that does offensively and defensively whenever he touches the ball or plays near the basket on D. All that defensive movement and shuffling of the feet probably injured Murphy. j/k.

 

I like Clif's lineups too. People say we should figure out what works with our own players and to find chemistry from within... but I'm thinking we need to analyze and project what we could do based on what other teams have already done to be successful. Why try to make Dun nothing fit with 4 other players that are guards?

Why can't we emulate what the Clippers have shown? I think Biedrins could be like a lightweight Chris Kaman. Ike could be Elton Brand xtra-lite. Baron could be like Sam Cassell. Which Warriors are Mobley and who is whoever their small forward was... Quinton Ross?

I value PG, SG, PF-C as the franchises most important positions. Maybe we can try to achieve this and fill in the gaps at SF or C. I think C and PF should be somewhat interchangeable since most C's nowadays need a midrange game in addition to some post game. PF's should be more like a cross between a SF and a C (skillwise).

 

<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I like Clif's lineups too. People say we should figure out what works with our own players and to find chemistry from within... but I'm thinking we need to analyze and project what we could do based on what other teams have already done to be successful. Why try to make Dun nothing fit with 4 other players that are guards?

Why can't we emulate what the Clippers have shown? I think Biedrins could be like a lightweight Chris Kaman. Ike could be Elton Brand xtra-lite. Baron could be like Sam Cassell. Which Warriors are Mobley and who is whoever their small forward was... Quinton Ross?

I value PG, SG, PF-C as the franchises most important positions. Maybe we can try to achieve this and fill in the gaps at SF or C. I think C and PF should be somewhat interchangeable since most C's nowadays need a midrange game in addition to some post game. PF's should be more like a cross between a SF and a C (skillwise).</div>

I think what we can say about your comments here CR2 is that the half-court game will only be consistant with Ike Diogu getting involved. I am not going to argue against this statement because I agree with it. I can't tell you why we cannot be like the Clippers because I really don't watch that team play that much. I think part of it is that Ike does not equal Elton Brand, this is especially on the defensive end. The other part of it is probably due to Don Nelson being relunctant to create an offense solely around a player that has proven very little besides a few outstanding games. Since his "only very good player" is Baron Davis this season and also since Jason Richardson his other very good player which he has gotten "half of what he expected" from so far and considering that many other players like Ellis, Pietrus, Biedrins, Barnes, etc. excel playing an up-tempo game, and since the defense is not really something to rely on to make stops it is only logical that Nelson tries to focus on playing towards the team's majority's strength and also the strength of the best player and players on the team, rather than Ike Diogu who has not proved so much yet and who has not transformed his game enough to play with his teammates and the new style of ball this season. (wow that was a long sentence...)

Once Ike can become like a secret weapon off the bench this team will excel that much more because there would likely be less three point shots taken and more free throws taken and made with him in and clicking with the team. But seriously Ike is almost a complete outsider on this team, he is probably more outside of the team with his game than even Troy Murphy.

In theory it would be great if Ike was getting it. But in reality he is not, and so Nelson has to work from there - reality.

 

Sorry I'm late to the game. My idea lineup? hehe

PG: Baron Davis
SG: Pietrus
SF: Barnes
PF: Jermaine O'Neal
C: Biendrins

Hey, I just did a trade on NBA 2k7 (PS2) that got Jermaine O'Neal, Toni Kukoc, and Lamond Murray for Murphy, Dunleavy, and J-Rich. LOL.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Clif25 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think what we can say about your comments here CR2 is that the half-court game will only be consistant with Ike Diogu getting involved. I am not going to argue against this statement because I agree with it. I can't tell you why we cannot be like the Clippers because I really don't watch that team play that much. I think part of it is that Ike does not equal Elton Brand, this is especially on the defensive end. The other part of it is probably due to Don Nelson being relunctant to create an offense solely around a player that has proven very little besides a few outstanding games. Since his "only very good player" is Baron Davis this season and also since Jason Richardson his other very good player which he has gotten "half of what he expected" from so far and considering that many other players like Ellis, Pietrus, Biedrins, Barnes, etc. excel playing an up-tempo game, and since the defense is not really something to rely on to make stops it is only logical that Nelson tries to focus on playing towards the team's majority's strength and also the strength of the best player and players on the team, rather than Ike Diogu who has not proved so much yet and who has not transformed his game enough to play with his teammates and the new style of ball this season. (wow that was a long sentence...)

Once Ike can become like a secret weapon off the bench this team will excel that much more because there would likely be less three point shots taken and more free throws taken and made with him in and clicking with the team. But seriously Ike is almost a complete outsider on this team, he is probably more outside of the team with his game than even Troy Murphy.

In theory it would be great if Ike was getting it. But in reality he is not, and so Nelson has to work from there - reality.</div>

Yeah, I hope in theory we can become a better basketball team overall that can respond to different strategies and lineups that oppose us. But maybe I don't know what results Nelson is looking for in his system/style. The team's success can be very unpredictable especially because we're so young that we don't know what we have or what we're going to get each and every night (esp with injuries). Right now Barnes is looking like a star player in the stat column, doing a little bit of everything. I hope we have more guys like that. As long as they play both ends of the floor competitively and pass it some, I'm happy with those guys.

I think what I get flustered over are players that have maybe two dimensions to their game at the most. I like Ike and Dunleavy's dimensions for their intended inside/outside roles on a team, but I don't like Dunleavy as a physical matchup in the nba at SF or PF. I think he's a boy amongst men, doesn't dominate/perform very well in any one thing, and that's the real reason why he is inconsistent. The nba is too quick, physical, intimidating, skilled for the likes of him as a player on a lot of nights.

I like Ike's game as a big man player, but he's untested as any of our rookies (I guess), especially since we haven't seen him on tougher, heavier, athletic F/C's that can play PF as well as play center. He's played/practiced against Amare Stoudamire, but Stoudamire's upside is larger, and it's harder to play against Stoudamire in a real game when he's backed up with teammates that can help him out. Ike's got to play team ball and I'm sure he can do that one day as he is a fundamentally smart, physically well built, aggressive mentality, and he's got great finesse and agility for somebody packing the weight.

Those two players, opposed to the "underrated" player like Murphy, I tend to value more in concept because let's say all Murphy does is rebound and shoot. What else does he do? How does he change the roles for everyone around him? What kind of game would the center have to have to protect the team and Murphy against a drive down the lane? What about post-positioning, boxing out, natural passing instinct, etc. Okay, now what about small forward and shooting guard? If we can't find a center that can do the things that most scoring power forwards do, would we have to find a jamison/al harrington of some sorts to provide the scoring mismatch there? What about the double edged sword of defense/offense ability? We got guys who put up as many points as they give up or a lot worse. I tend to think that Ike Diogu would not be a bad nba defender as our current crop of PF/C's. Ike was actually pretty decent despite being instructed not to worry about D in college level because of the 5 foul limit. This is compared to Dunleavy or Murphy who weren't good man-to-man defenders in college or had to worry about much physical contact on offense or defense. Dunleavy had his help defenses and Duke flopping. Murphy was just Murphy. He's there to collect the rebound once everyone else plays the D, and maybe he's stronger and more athletic at that level to play more of a true big man's game. I think if we had either Ike, Sean May, young Zach Randolph, Al Jefferson or any of the natural big players who can do the footwork moves and score with either hand would be guys that would be way better than Murphy. That's my opinion.

It's obvious to each of us why Dunleavy and Murphy just won't work, especially if Jrich is not that good at defense, Fisher kept getting burned, or Baron kept reaching for steals. He's probably doing it knowing that if he doesn't, the opposing team is going to isolate Murphy or Dunleavy to attack the basket from their side. Basketball, being the game of matchups it is, will always have the other team constantly hitting the weakest link. It's just like in football. If there's weak coverage by an individual or individuals, or guys are getting run over or outquicked, the team with the physical matchup win is going to exploit the other team's defense over and over and over until they win more posessions than not. Lately, it's just been worse because of Nelly's style + injuries. I feel it's gotten worse because now we're playing softer, we've got less control of the glass, we're smaller and less intimidating, and we focus more on offense than our effort on defense. I think there's things we can do, but there's little room to manuever given the current state of the franchise and this roster... I guess the more I talk about it, it feels good to get it all out because it's a vicious cycle and I keep dwelling on it. It's like a pot that's overboiling.

whew.. sorry for long sentences and posts. I hope this all makes sense. I know I probably made a similar post each and every day by now. So you don't have to respond, Clif It is more for me and complete strangers who happen to lurk around.

 

Cus, one thing you touched on that frustrates me of the recent warriors over the years... They never seem to recognize a mismatch, nor do they exploit it when there is one. This is not just under Nelson but the previous few coaches as well. To me if you have Telfair guarding Baron post him for the entire game til the other team either comes to double or switches off of B or simply pulls the guy form the game. Yeah we might go to it once.... but we never expose a weakness and then pound that weakness.

For example, Beans was killing in the first quarter last game, and then we never go back to it. Ok. Teams make adjustments. But i just get frustrated when there are easy buckets to be had.

I can point at the times Dun has a mismatch and an easy post up.... but he seems to have the mentality to wait for a double team instead of attacking.... the nature of his game.... the pacifist approach...

There are too many examples of this.... too mention.

It just makes me wonder what exactly Nelson's goals are for this team. Ike, depsite making dumb blunders occasionally which are no worse than Ellis or BArnes's turnovers, or for that matter the vets as well, but he cant get any floor love. I dont see how Murphy gets up the floor any better than Ike... Ike has better hands and can finish in transition. Also if i remember at the end of last season Ellis and Ike seemed to have a connection similar to what we see with Beans and Baron....

It just seems right now..... Nelson is content to hold his jaw in his hand as he sits there stone faced over dumb errors and just refuses to make adjustments when clearly momentum shifts and strategies during the game have shifted. I like that he rides the hot guy and that he pulls the cold guy for the most part... but when the team is playing cold is when he could really change things up and ride Ike and Beans in the paint for a bit...

Disjointed ramblings ugh

 

Excellent points, boogielew, you are so right about the Warriors not fully exploiting matchup advantages. It seems like we have a lot of Warriors who have great quarters, but then like you said we go away from what was working (and not because the other team has adjusted) and they disappear. Biedrins should be scoring 30+ on a lot of these teams if we made him an offensive focal point, but it seems like some nights he just gets scrap baskets off bad perimeter shots, or the occasional drive and dish from Baron. Even if the other team starts bringing doubleteams, that doesn't mean you necessarily stop going to that player. That's when you tell your teammate whose defender left him for the doubleteam to cut to the basket for layups.

 

<div class="quote_poster">boogielew Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Cus, one thing you touched on that frustrates me of the recent warriors over the years... They never seem to recognize a mismatch, nor do they exploit it when there is one. This is not just under Nelson but the previous few coaches as well. To me if you have Telfair guarding Baron post him for the entire game til the other team either comes to double or switches off of B or simply pulls the guy form the game. Yeah we might go to it once.... but we never expose a weakness and then pound that weakness.

For example, Beans was killing in the first quarter last game, and then we never go back to it. Ok. Teams make adjustments. But i just get frustrated when there are easy buckets to be had.

I can point at the times Dun has a mismatch and an easy post up.... but he seems to have the mentality to wait for a double team instead of attacking.... the nature of his game.... the pacifist approach...

There are too many examples of this.... too mention.

It just makes me wonder what exactly Nelson's goals are for this team. Ike, depsite making dumb blunders occasionally which are no worse than Ellis or BArnes's turnovers, or for that matter the vets as well, but he cant get any floor love. I dont see how Murphy gets up the floor any better than Ike... Ike has better hands and can finish in transition. Also if i remember at the end of last season Ellis and Ike seemed to have a connection similar to what we see with Beans and Baron....

It just seems right now..... Nelson is content to hold his jaw in his hand as he sits there stone faced over dumb errors and just refuses to make adjustments when clearly momentum shifts and strategies during the game have shifted. I like that he rides the hot guy and that he pulls the cold guy for the most part... but when the team is playing cold is when he could really change things up and ride Ike and Beans in the paint for a bit...

Disjointed ramblings ugh</div>

Good points man. I understand. It's hard to post these days without being passionate in a concerned/frustrated way and then going into several other side issues or examples which exacerbate the bigger issues. We're in limbo it seems... too many things wrong going with the things that are actually right.

But I totally agree about not finding the weakness to exploit and hitting it over and over and over again to run up the score. If they make adjustments, then we make adjustments, unless our remaining pool of players makes it so we can't match up what the other team has. We all know as basketball fans that basketballl is a game of matchups (individual players), adjustments (team depth), and production on both sides of the ball (offense/defense teamwork). For every successful basket made by us or basket given up by us, there's a certain amount of stops or play execution we need to successfully make or else the other team outproduces us when time runs out. So right now we're counting on being an offensive team despite not having the league's most consistent shooters or shooting variety. We don't control any defensive tempo which causes us to turn up the temp on offense that may not be there every night.

And it's like we totally fail to make defensive adjustments to prevent the other team from exploiting us, but maybe it's because we don't have the size and guard-like skill that Nelson wants in his bigger players. I guess Ike will have to learn some point guard skills and Foyle will have to learn how to dribble drive. heh. If we could have gotten decent coaches after Nelson left and more balanced role players, this wouldn't be such a love-hate relationship with any of our warriors past and present coaches. They always do something to irk me.

In hindsight, I think Muss was the better coach for whatever group of players we decided to assemble. He could play x's and o's or a game where he lets the players figure it out. Nelson is doing fine right now with his current available players and his style, but I just think the direction of this team is not going too well and that may not be Nelson's fault. But, when the warriors play really bad it's frustrating to watch than one of the 2002-2003 teams lose.