Warriors @ NO/OKC Hornets Jan 2, 2007 5:00pm FSN

I think Ike will see some pt tonight against Memphis -- they have some bigs that he can match-up with, like Brian Cardinal, Hakim Warrick, even Stro Swift and Gasol at times. I think Nellie will try to run like always, but due to the back-2-back and the fact that Baron played the whole game last night, he'll probably be forced to slow down a bit and play Diogu, Beans and Murph a bit more.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Run BJM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I did.</div>

Just wondering whose comments were actually based on watching the whole game last night.

Your previous comments -- about getting it up for the big teams but deflating for the easy teams -- almost came true last night. Even with a 10pt lead in the 3rd, it always looked like NO was on the verge of snatching the momentum. Baron and Barnes stepped up at the end of the 4th but still NO missed several easy shots at key times. Let's hope the Warriors don't take Memphis lightly either.

 

Ike hasn't played very well. He also slows down the offense and is weak on defense at least the type of defense Nelson likes to play. The running game is how the Warriors were going to beat the Hornets, slowing it down would have just allowed the Hornets to get back in it even more than they were letting them. I don't think it is devastating that he didn't get much PT. I do see him getting more PT vs the Grizzlies however. Nelson focuses a lot on matchups, so based on that I see Ike getting off the bench today.

 

<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Just curious - How many people actually watched the game?</div>

I watched it, kind of regrettably. Awful game to watch. Glad they won though. It was kind of fun watching that NBDL guy play, but that was about it.

But I'm trying to watch and enjoy every game I can before I head back to school next week.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you look at Ike's per48 stats, they are quite high. In fact, he is #2 on the Warriors for PTS/48, just behind Baron. And he's a far more efficient shooter than Baron, 54% compared to 43%. And let's not forget that it's pretty hard to put up big numbers with injuries, sporadic playing time, and playing out of your natural position, all of which Ike has had going against him this year. And in rebounds per 48, Ike is also at #2, just below Andris, 15.1 to 14.3. More than Troy, more than Dun.

His big negative is a fairly high rate of turnovers, although that's something that will probably be reduce with more playing time. He gets hassled for his defense but I really don't think it's that bad. He can block the ball. Let's put it this way, is his defense worse than Murph's or Dun's? I think it'd be hard to argue that.

Now I can hear you getting all lathered up thinking "but per 48 stats aren't necessarily a reliable indicator of performance!". Well, that's true, and who knows if he can translate those numbers into higher minutes? But don't we owe it to the team to find out? I say his stats indicate more minutes might be a good idea. Scoring, rebounding, blocks, high FG% and FT%...those are things the Warriors need, especially on the road where they seem to have the most trouble sticking to the game plan and they get blown out. I just don't get why Ike's not playing more, I'm pretty frustrated with Nellie right now in regards to Diogu.</div>

I guess I'm a bit bias, but I'm not that big a fan of Ike. I just don't think he's that good. I do think he can help the team, but with Nellie's style of play, Ike will never be effective in this system.

Sure Ike can score, but he's a black hole right now. If he gets doubled he gets in trouble because he has trouble passing out. Or either that or he will be forced to take a tough shot. Also you also have to realize that teams have not really game planned for him yet. Once they do that he will have to make more adjustments, same for Monta and Biedrins, which is one of the reasons why Biedrins has been less effective lately, because people are taking away his strengths. Like one thing about Ike is that he relies on a lot of pump fakes, so if players learn his tendency and don't bite on his fakes, he will have to find a different counter.

I'm sure that Ike will learn to adjust because he is that good of a scorer (notice that I did not say offensive player). But the bigger problem with being a black hole is that disrupts the flow the offense. Players play better when the ball is moving around and everyone gets touches. Then they don't feel the need to throw up a shot because they haven't touched the ball in a while.

Also, I remember in preseason, Ike was having trouble learning the offense. I wonder what his progress is on that.

Not to mention, Nellie has said that Ike is a "blamer". That is not a good thing. He definitely needs to accept responsibility. Basketball is a team game, and sometimes he plays too selfishly.

Defensively, it is hard to tell if Ike is better than or equal to Dunleavy and Murphy. All three are pretty bad. But I will give more credit to the coaches who know how to critique their defense, which they do for every game. There's a lot of nuances that coaches will see and the average fan will not. So maybe Ike is missing a lot of rotations and committing too many stupid fouls. More than Dun and Murphy.

Blocks and steals may not be a good criteria for defensive ability. I read that in some ESPN article, not sure how much credibility I give to it, but it made sense. If the team is good defensively, teams would get less blocks because opposing teams cannot get into the lane as much. Also there would be less steals because steals are more of a gamble than playing straight up D. Because you make a steal and miss the other player will get drive to the hoop or an open shot. For example the warriors get a lot of steals and blocks but are one not a very good defensive team.

Sure Ike can get some blocks, better than Murph and Dun, but at the same time he doesn't provide much inside presence, doesn't make people worried about entering the lane against him. That presence is more important than the actual blocks. Neither of those three have it anyway. I think this is where Ike's being undersized hurts him. He doesn't have much toughness when I see him on the court, like Barkely or even Fortson.

Again, I do think that Ike can help this team, but in short spurts, maybe a 8-10 minutes a game. He does need to get on the court because some of his flaws can be attributed to lack of experience and court time.

But I really don't think Ike is a future starter in this league. He's more of a Kenny Thomas or Corliss Williamson, which is not bad, but not great.

Also, I hope there is something about Ike that the coaches know and we do not, that is keeping him out of the game. I hope it is not just because Nellie is being stubborn.

 

Let's ask ourselves how many more times could Ike get to the foul line if we gave him the ball, how many three point plays could he get, and is his turnover rate higher than Biedrins or Ellis?

Let's also ask ourselves do Dunleavy or Murphy play a physical game? Are Murphy and Dunleavy considered soft compared to Ike Diogu? Are Dun and Murph both versatile and strong enough to score on various opponents on either sides of the post? Last I remembered, Dun couldn't post up a 5'11 160 lb guard and Murphy got blocked by a 6'2 midget or couldn't finish with layups over smaller players despite being almost 7 feet tall.

We've got some embarassingly soft big players. If we're going with the NBA's biggest "bullseyes" at least give us a guy who can lay somebody out and intimidate. I don't care if it's Danny Fortson or Nick Collison. Damn nobody is physical enough except for maybe Murphy for rebounding, but then forget about playing zone because he won't help you cover his/or your spot.

 

(This is a long post that kind of goes nowhere. I confused myself and over complicated things. I gave up on it after while. But the main point is that some of my Ike hate is not that warranted because the players on this team are not much better)

Good points CR2. You are right that with the alternatives that the warriors have right now at PF, Ike is a viable option, especially because this team lacks scoring punch from the inside. Might as well let him make the same mistakes as Monta, as others have mentioned in other posts. I kind of forgot about the other players on this team that are playing in front Ike. Comparing him to the players on the team, makes Ike look a lot better for sure.

I mean Murphy's defense has been pretty bad and is even worse that now that he is recovering from injury. Murphy can definitely play better than what he has shown so far this season. It's been a nightmare for him, broken nose and then the achilles. So Ike can't be much worse and at least he can provide some offense. Both are kind of black holes, though Murphy seems to be passing more this season, but I haven't really seen Murphy play much this season to see how he's been getting his assists. So if both are black holes and terrible at D, I would go with Ike because he is a more efficient scorer. I wonder how he will handle it once teams game plan for him more though. Plus it's not like Murphy adds much else to the offense. If he can't score he's basically useless.

Also I was thinking about the whole notion of being a black hole and what that meant in relation to basketball. I guess my thinking is that it may not be that bad a connotation, since it is kind of a hypocritical and flawed metaphor, the more I think of it. Or maybe for a player to be called a black hole is more nuanced in terms of criteria (i.e. not just someone who takes a shot every time he touches the ball). Like around this forum, I don't think Davis or Richardson have been associated with as black holes, but they do take a lot of shots and have the ball in their hands a lot. Also you could say Monta is kind of a black hole, which I guess is related to "ball hog" but are do not have the same meaning, though they are similar. So I guess it is not fair to call Murphy a black hole or Ike, if my above simple definition is used. So there has to be something more that make Murphy and Ike associated with being black holes. Is it the ratio of the amount of touches versus shots on goal (or alternatively passes)? I don't think that would work either since Davis has the ball in his hands much of the time. Or do we also take into account what position the player is playing? And do we judge it by the offense and how smoothly it runs? Like in Washington's offense, Jamison, Butler, and Arenas take most of the shots. A lot of isolations and quick jumpers. So they would they be considered black holes? I can go on and on. I guess my point is that my calling Ike a black hole makes very little sense, unless the definition of a "black hole" type player is more clear and defined.

Now comparing Ike to Dunleavy, both are terrible at D. I assume Dun is better in terms of understanding how the Defense works, but he's just not skilled enough to defend all that well. Ike sometimes gets lost on D and makes some petty fouls, but is still not much worse than Dun on man to man D. Dun is better in the zone. Offensively, Dun occasionally makes good passes, but his shot is inconsistent. He sometimes makes good cuts. So again, I guess Ike has the advantage on Offense, just because he's more consistent in putting the ball in the basket. But he does not really add much else on offense, those "intangibles". But sadly neither does Dun, at least on a consistent basis.

One of the hardest things to judge is how players play as a team. How the players complement each other. I think it some of it has to do with flow, like how players get their shot in the rhythm of the game or something like that. Dunleavy and Murphy do not fit. I think Dunleavy is the better fit of the two, but that's not saying much. I do not think Ike is a good fit either. But I guess when it comes to Ike, it is because he reminds me too much of Kenny Thomas and Corliss Williamson. It has more to do with him being a post up player, which slows down the game a lot, to wait for him to get position in the post, and reposts, and then watching him go one on one. Then maybe there is a kickout and a repost. And then maybe another kick out for a three. Or a double comes and he passes it to the cutter. Overall this kind of offense slows up the game a lot, stagnates offenses. But the same could be said about having the pg drive and kick out to the open shooter, stagnate offense.

(incomplete)

 

Gohn, you're right about our players not complimenting each other and I think it's also because of Nelson's tendencies and his style. He plays small and his history shows it. It's ineffective in the long run and its tactics are better applied to teams who aren't executing well offensively or rebounding the ball. Well we just faced a team who was executing effectively both inside and outside. It's kind of like the Kings game. They got in the lane anyway they wanted, nobody stopped them, they hit outside shots. Meanwhile we couldn't do anything offensively, but take three pointers and guys were too lazy or unskilled to do anything else but rely on Baron.

Also blackhole to me means: that you get the ball, you don't get it back out when there's a better shot somewhere else on the floor, or you don't make the effort to get to the foul line with the ball IF you decide not to pass. There were many times Foyle was a blackhole because he simply could not catch the freakin' ball and if he did, he didn't know what to do with it. Low basketball I.Q. Him and Pietrus both.

Well hell Ike to me is the better alternative than the lazy low% three point shot and guys not getting to the foul line enough. Ike ain't going to save us but he reinforces several areas that our poorly built team doesn't do well in: rebounding, inside shooting, foul shooting, shotblocking, getting to the line. This is a team that relies on nothing but outside offense, the fastbreak, and guys trying to play off turnovers which they won't get if the other team is moving the ball away from our traps and play on the passing lanes.

When comparing a player like Dun's defense to Ike, Ike is way way way better! AT least the guy alters shots more effectively and he also is willing to get physical with people rather than roll over and play dead like Dunleavy does. You go up and put the ball back in somebody's grill or you stand your ground. That's what Ike will do. Dunleavy just plays pssy and flops like they teach all the softies at Duke who can't make a stop, can't front people, can't post up, can't stuff anyone. In other words, can't play defense. Defense takes things like effort, quickness, mental quickness and strength.

I'm convinced guys like Dunleavy, Murphy have no concept of this, but at least Ike has shown signs he could be way better than those guarding the rim any day of the week! At least he'll take the foul rather than play matador D or flop at the first sign of getting beat or feeling contact. Ike's problem is he was misused last year and misused this year. They keep playing his ass at center and he's not a freakin' center. He's a power forward and he's a guy who could provide a role similar to Portland's Zach Randolph. Let's not try to make this guy a defender because hell nobody on this team is... we just need low post scoring, at a high % clip, and can make free throws so he can convert on many 3-point plays.

In addition, Ike'll be smart off the ball, he'll help with his energy and his knack for grabbing offensive rebounds, he'll box out, he'll set screens, he'll keep fighting. Biedrins + Ike could offer more variations in how we score inside the paint rather than just rely on dive cuts and dribble penetration.

Compare Ike to Dun and Murph as shotblockers or guys who could force somebody into a travel when guarding the post. Which guys could also provide physical intimidation or gain us an extra posession because of high energy and high court awareness? Dun and Murph ain't enough of a mismatch to play all perimeter at their positions. They need an inside outside guy to take over and that's Ike for the moment until Biedrins refines his footwork, midrange shooting, and his ability to go right shoulder.... and make free throws.

Whew!