Og15 you're mostly right (congrats). But my Finals bitching is still true though. In my opinion, I have to repeat myself because Wade supporters keep ignoring that 16 FTA is such a ridiculous number. They don't always include it in their discussion with people which flusters me.
I'm not saying he didn't get a lot of calls in the finals, HE DID, it's obvious he did. How legit they were, well, that's hard to say, almost every foul call made you can argue something about it. Also sometimes fouls are called due to body contact, and most people don't pay attention to that, people look mostly at the players arms. There's the obvious one's where a guy get's clobbered and everyone knows it's a foul. Part of Wade's FT attempts was Dallas' fault because they allowed Miami to get into the bonus too easily (due to fouling Shaq, and many times aimlessly), so then all the touch fouls on the perimeter became FT attempts. Also Dallas themselves had things go their way nicely on the way to the finals, and they also weren't being aggressive attacking the basket (that's also because they don't really have any "great" slashers).
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not saying he didn't get a lot of calls in the finals, HE DID, it's obvious he did. How legit they were, well, that's hard to say, almost every foul call made you can argue something about it. Also sometimes fouls are called due to body contact, and most people don't pay attention to that, people look mostly at the players arms. There's the obvious one's where a guy get's clobbered and everyone knows it's a foul. Part of Wade's FT attempts was Dallas' fault because they allowed Miami to get into the bonus too easily (due to fouling Shaq, and many times aimlessly), so then all the touch fouls on the perimeter became FT attempts. Also Dallas themselves had things go their way nicely on the way to the finals, and they also weren't being aggressive attacking the basket (that's also because they don't really have any "great" slashers).</div> Well I don't want to have a misunderstanding here; I really do agree with many things you said in your previous post (for the record).
<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I feel I understand it perfectly. "D'Whistle" never sreamed or screams at the ref because he gets the calls his way. Which isn't true because Wade was essentially a nonentity his first year in Miami. No one was talking about him, and it wall "LeBron this Carmelo that". He didn't get superstar calls, he played the game. Calls went against him, and he didn't whine or get angry at the refs.</div> Talking about the last two years. Can't comment on his rookie year to be honest, since I didn't watch him that much. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, because they don't attack the basket with nearly enough regularity. Perhaps it's even a fault that Kobe is so good with his jump shot. He slashes and cuts a lot less to the basket then Wade. You can't compare any player in the league when it comes to attacking the basket. Wade simply does it by far the most. Therefore he gets the most calls.</div> This is simply untrue. Dwyane Wade has a 38% inside shot selection. If I go to Dwight Howard of the Magic who stands at 81%, and Amare who stands at 59% they don't even scratch Wade's FTA's per game. I'm sure durvasa could help make this explanation more indepth, as I know he has some crazy stats that show calls made per 48 minutes or something towards that player. Wade has 11.1 FTA's per game, Dwight and Amare combine for 14.4. That is only a 3.3 differential. Considering who is inside the most, or according to you, attacking the rim more they don't even reach his numbers seperately. I had to combine their numbers. Even so, they hardly ever get B.S. calls that are head scratchers. Usually when they get fouled it is a hack to prevent them from going up strong which affects that FTA's quite obviously. Wade also holds the #1 spot for total number of FTA this year. http://www.82games.com/0607/06MIA5A.HTM http://www.82games.com/0607/06PHO14A.HTM http://www.82games.com/0607/06ORL12A.HTM Simply put, people attack the basket far more than Wade and they don't get anywhere near the amount of calls he does. Big men included. That isn't an accurate analysis though. Those big men don't have as many FGA's as Wade, by a lot to be honest. A more accurate representation would be Carter. His numbers are very similar to Wades in terms of attacking the basket, as well as FGA's. http://www.82games.com/0607/06NJN6A.HTM He still doesn't touch Wade in FTA's. Of course going on FTA's isn't the best arguement, it is the best example I can come up with as of now. I'm hoping durvasa or huevonkiller could help me with his/their crazy stats and show calls per way or something similar. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">It's impossible to argue with quite a lot of Kobe fans, because they simply refuse to acknowledge that another player may simply be better at something. When it comes to slashing and attacking the rim, Wade is the best. That's why he gets calls. Or at least, he does it a lot more then any other player in the league. It's a fact.</div> False. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">I'd rather stick to the facts, thanks.</div> Lighten up rafy. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">I acknowledged he was a big man. But my point was that when you're around the rim, you get calls. And it seems that I'm having a hard time getting it across clearly enough. While Wade gets the most amount of bad calls, it doesn't take away from the fact why. And I keep saying, that if any other player like Kobe, etc, attacking the rim as much as Wade, they would get just as many "B.S." calls.</div> False.
<div class="quote_poster">Franchise4Ever Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Talking about the last two years. Can't comment on his rookie year to be honest, since I didn't watch him that much.</div> Well, if you did, you did watch him you would see him pretty much driving off the dribble all the time. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is simply untrue. Dwyane Wade has a 38% inside shot selection. If I go to Dwight Howard of the Magic who stands at 81%, and Amare who stands at 59% they don't even scratch Wade's FTA's per game. I'm sure durvasa could help make this explanation more indepth, as I know he has some crazy stats that show calls made per 48 minutes or something towards that player. Wade has 11.1 FTA's per game, Dwight and Amare combine for 14.4. That is only a 3.3 differential. Considering who is inside the most, or according to you, attacking the rim more they don't even reach his numbers seperately. I had to combine their numbers. Even so, they hardly ever get B.S. calls that are head scratchers. Usually when they get fouled it is a hack to prevent them from going up strong which affects that FTA's quite obviously. Wade also holds the #1 spot for total number of FTA this year. http://www.82games.com/0607/06MIA5A.HTM http://www.82games.com/0607/06PHO14A.HTM http://www.82games.com/0607/06ORL12A.HTM Simply put, people attack the basket far more than Wade and they don't get anywhere near the amount of calls he does. Big men included. That isn't an accurate analysis though. Those big men don't have as many FGA's as Wade, by a lot to be honest. A more accurate representation would be Carter. His numbers are very similar to Wades in terms of attacking the basket, as well as FGA's. http://www.82games.com/0607/06NJN6A.HTM He still doesn't touch Wade in FTA's. Of course going on FTA's isn't the best arguement, it is the best example I can come up with as of now. I'm hoping durvasa or huevonkiller could help me with his/their crazy stats and show calls per way or something similar.</div> Firstly, I never claimed that Wade never edged people out when it comes to getting calls. I've said multiple times that he gets the most in the league. And, as I'm sure you know, they call things differently for guards. The physical contact down low is constantly going on. It's different for guards where they consistently call hand checks. Which I think is stupid, but that's beside the point. They call the game much differently for guards. As I'm sure you know. Also, of course the big men take a lot more shots in the paint. That's where they're supposed to be isn't? They're practically in there all the time. Also, there is a huge different between chucking up threes like VC and take your man off the dribble for the 10 foot baseline jumper. Suggesting that VC attacks the basket nearly as much as Wade is laughable. I don't care what kind of stats you give me. Again, I indicated before that it would be hard to compare bigmen to Wade, but look at how many FTA they're getting. 10. Wade is at 14. So a 4 FTW difference. You have to take into account the way that Wade plays. He's a guard. He goes off the dribble instead of a quick drop step/power move. He goes right from the three point line all the way into the land of the giants. And as og15 said, he practically got as many calls he does now as he did in his second season. Before the was at the level of getting superstar calls. So, your argument is moot. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">False.</div> True. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lighten up rafy.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">False.</div> True.
<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Also, of course the big men take a lot more shots in the paint. That's where they're supposed to be isn't? They're practically in there all the time.</div> So why did you bring that up? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, there is a huge different between chucking up threes like VC and take your man off the dribble for the 10 foot baseline jumper. Suggesting that VC attacks the basket nearly as much as Wade is laughable. I don't care what kind of stats you give me.</div> Then this arguement is pointless if you throw the stats aside. He doesn't drive as much as Wade, but it is only a 6 percent differential. Same FGA's as well(might be a .6 difference in favor of VC), yet VC doesn't get as many B.S.(or calls in general) as Wade. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, I indicated before that it would be hard to compare bigmen to Wade, but look at how many FTA they're getting. 10. Wade is at 14. So a 4 FTW difference. You have to take into account the way that Wade plays. He's a guard. He goes off the dribble instead of a quick drop step/power move. He goes right from the three point line all the way into the land of the giants.</div> I understand all of this, I was responding to your example with Amare. You used him first, arguing against it now is being inconsistent. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">And as og15 said, he practically got as many calls he does now as he did in his second season. Before the was at the level of getting superstar calls. So, your argument is moot.</div> You also have to take into consideration the manner in which he is getting those calls.
Actually in comparing Wade to Dwight Howard and Amare, they do get "as many calls". Now if you look purely FTA basis, no they don't, but you can't do that. Why? Well Amare and Dwight get less touches than Wade, and shoot something like 8-9 less FG's per game. The more touches you have, and the more you shoot, the more fouls you're going to draw. These are their foul draw percentages: Howard: 24.8% Amare: 23.8% Wade: 19.5% So Wade doesn't actually draw more fouls, in relation to how much they have the ball, he just has the ball more in shooting situations. It's kinda like the Miami vs Utah game, there was a HUGE amount of calls, something like 99 FTA's. Utah had an advantage of 9 more FT's, and had 3 players over 10 FT's. Now Wade attempted something like 23 FT's in the game, so it looks like he's just getting all the calls, but it's more like he handled the ball more than any other player in a game where the refs whistles were going crazy. Also in comparing Wade to Howard and Amare, we have a situation where these guys are big men. If you look at the numbers, Wade is assisted on 38% of his made shots inside, while Howard and Amare are at 72% and 58%. So what does that tell us? Howard and Amare first of all are getting more open attempts inside, eg: drive and dish from a guard and a pass for a dunk, Wade is the one doing that on his team, and you get fouled a lot less in those situaitons when you're a guy like Amare or Dwight who rocks the rim (and also because your guard has drawn the defender). Next, Howard takes almost all his shots inside, so these aren't drives at the basket, he's posting up and shooting hook shots, etc, those aren't foul drawing scenarios. When Wade is getting to the basket, the majority of the time it's on a slash to the basket, which is a foul drawing scenario. ...and with Vince, well Vince likes to shoot the floaters inside, and sometimes he's too athletic for his own good. He tries to manuever around defenders instead of just drawing fouls.
<div class="quote_poster">Franchise4Ever Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So why did you bring that up? </div> To prove the point that people who attack the basket get calls. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then this arguement is pointless if you throw the stats aside. He doesn't drive as much as Wade, but it is only a 6 percent differential. Same FGA's as well(might be a .6 difference in favor of VC), yet VC doesn't get as many B.S.(or calls in general) as Wade.</div> Saying that VC attacks the basket is absolutely hilarious. He attacks the basket like Rafer Alston, with his little gay floaters. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I understand all of this, I was responding to your example with Amare. You used him first, arguing against it now is being inconsistent.</div> Yeah, but I acknowledged the fact that it was different because of their positions. I was only trying to point out the fact that the more the player attacks the basket, the more calls he gets. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You also have to take into consideration the manner in which he is getting those calls.</div> Can you elaborate? In my opinion, Wade gets the most superstar calls in the league. But he got nearly as many calls now as he did when he was a nobody. Wade has been one of my favorite players since he left Marquette, and his FTA increased marginally, why? I believe it's because now that he is a superstar he is gets the calls that people like Kobe, etc do. And since he attacks the basket with a mix of ferocity and craftiness, he gets the fouls. And what he is doing, anyone could. Besides, I completely botched this debate. og15 is doing a fantastic job. props to him. I'd suggest you take the issue with him, because I really messed this one up.
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Actually in comparing Wade to Dwight Howard and Amare, they do get "as many calls". Now if you look purely FTA basis, no they don't, but you can't do that. Why? Well Amare and Dwight get less touches than Wade, and shoot something like 8-9 less FG's per game. The more touches you have, and the more you shoot, the more fouls you're going to draw.</div> Yeah I know, hence: <div class="quote_poster">Quoting F4E:</div><div class="quote_post">That isn't an accurate analysis though. Those big men don't have as many FGA's as Wade, by a lot to be honest.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">These are their foul draw percentages: Howard: 24.8% Amare: 23.8% Wade: 19.5%</div> Didn't look at that, thanks for pointing it out. Though like I said before, the big men were very poor examples. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">but it's more like he handled the ball more than any other player in a game where the refs whistles were going crazy.</div> Haha, well...when Wade has the ball it always seems that way. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Also in comparing Wade to Howard and Amare, we have a situation where these guys are big men. If you look at the numbers, Wade is assisted on 38% of his made shots inside, while Howard and Amare are at 72% and 58%. So what does that tell us? Howard and Amare first of all are getting more open attempts inside, eg: drive and dish from a guard and a pass for a dunk, Wade is the one doing that on his team, and you get fouled a lot less in those situaitons when you're a guy like Amare or Dwight who rocks the rim (and also because your guard has drawn the defender). Next, Howard takes almost all his shots inside, so these aren't drives at the basket, he's posting up and shooting hook shots, etc, those aren't foul drawing scenarios. When Wade is getting to the basket, the majority of the time it's on a slash to the basket, which is a foul drawing scenario.</div> Again, understood. Even I admitted that those were poor examples which is why I went to Vince Carter. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">...and with Vince, well Vince likes to shoot the floaters inside, and sometimes he's too athletic for his own good. He tries to manuever around defenders instead of just drawing fouls.</div> That is a moot point. Sometimes Wade doesn't even have a man next to him and he gets a call. The arguement rafy was trying to put up is he "drives more" than most so he gets the calls. That is simply untrue as many players attack the basket and don't get as many calls as Wade, as well as the manner in which he gets those calls. I will use Carmelo as an example. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">To prove the point that people who attack the basket get calls.</div> It was a poor example though. You used a big man who is in the paint for the majority of the game. They also draw a lot of fouls because of their size, notable Dwight with the hack'a Shaq method. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">Saying that VC attacks the basket is absolutely hilarious. He attacks the basket like Rafer Alston, with his little gay floaters.</div> They both get to the basket and slash, VC doesn't do "gay floaters" all the time. Wade gets a considerable more amount of foul drawing than VC, yet Wade only has a slight advantage in terms of going towards the hoop. These fouls he is drawing isn't due to him "slashing". <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">Besides, I completely botched this debate. og15 is doing a fantastic job. props to him. I'd suggest you take the issue with him, because I really messed this one up.</div> Not at all, you made an arguement without even basing it purely on stats. I am kind of done atm with this arguement. No one wants to back down, even though it is FACT that Wade gets arguably the most calls of all the superstars and the reason isn't solely because "he slashes".
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Way more than Wade in terms of attacking the rim and yet he still doesn't match Mr. Wade in terms of drawing the foul. A mystery don't you agree? </div> You're definately right on the fact that Wade doesn't "score inside" more than all other guys, but we have to distinquish attacking the rim and playing inside from each other. Vince drives and pulls up for a shot in the paint, that's considered an inside shot, similarly if Vince comes off a screen and pulls up for a 14 foot shot near inside the FT line. Wade does not do those things as much, I don't think he's as good as Vince at pulling up in those situations anyways. The majority of Wade's interior baskets are him driving all the way, or driving and doing his you could almost call a travel spin move. So while we can look at the numbers, we still have to look at them in context. Carmelo plays on Denver a fastbreaking team, so a higher percentage of his inside points come from layups and dunks on the fastbreak, which is a situation you're less likely to get fouled in. Wade shoots 33% of his attempts in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock, Carmelo has 48% of his. Dwyane Wade has 6% of his makes as dunks, Carmelo has 13% of his as dunks, so the numbers also support this assumption. Next, Carmelo plays inside without slashing. If you look at his numbers, he's the case of a guy scoring 30+ PPG while being assisted on more FG's than not. Carmelo is assisted on 61% of his makes. I know you've likely watched the Nuggets, your favourite team had to have played them once (though it might have been after he got suspended), so hopefully you would have seen this. Andre Miller handles the ball at the top, Carmelo would make cuts to the basket, Dre gives him a bullet pass, he dunks or lays it up, the defense doesn't really have much of a chance to foul in most cases. The Nuggets were also one of the best alley-oop teams in the league because of Dre's passing. Now Wade's scenario is Wade has the ball, everyone knows he's going to make a move, the defenders are waiting, then he drives to the basket and the help defense comes, and he draws a foul. That's really the difference there, it's not that Carmelo can't draw fouls or doesn't get calls, because if he was going to iso, he actually draws them very well, it's that the offense is in allows him to score more before the defense is even able to react. So what we have is that you're much more likely to draw a foul when driving in the halfcourt set than you are when catching an alley-oop, cutting for an open dunk/layup, or scoring on the break. Just to make it not just a Wade thing, look at Arenas another guy on a fast paced team. He scores just merely 24% of his baskets in the paint, almost half of Carmelo's. Yet Arenas has a 14.8% foul drawing rate to Carmelo's 12% (he was higher in previous seasons when Denver's offense was more iso related). Why? When Arenas is scoring inside, it's off a drive to the basket, he's not getting many alley-oops or easy inside scores in halfcourt. There's actually many other perimeter players that have a higher foul rate than Carmelo because of this. Again, for example, look at Shawn Marion, he scores a lot inside, but draws hardly any fouls, because when he's scoring inside, he's just moving very well off the ball, getting open, then getting a shot off quickly. Most of the time, you don't have time to foul him, and he also isn't a guy that looks for contact anyways. Lastly about Wade getting calls without anyone being near him, I'm going to say that it's not something just limited to him. It depends on the game, and the refs, but sometimes it's like ref's feel a guy can't fall down without someone having touched him. For example in the video shown, that's a legit play that can happen where a guy spins through two players and get's tripped. The ref was obviously quite wrong there, but I've seen the same thing happen with Iverson before, and obviously people are just highlighting it because Wade has been the guy to pick on in terms of foul calling.
I have to say og15 has backed up his opinion with this data very well. I'll just respond to Franchise4ever's using Carmelo and his drawF% of 12%. If the claim is that Wade's star power is due to his DrawF (or the claim he pays the refs), then it wouldn't make sense that Wade's rookie year DrawF% (without Shaq, not a star) was higher than Melo's right now. I think og said it was 14.6% in his rookie year.
<div class="quote_poster">Omarion Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If the claim is that Wade's star power is due to his DrawF (or the claim he pays the refs), then it wouldn't make sense that Wade's rookie year DrawF% (without Shaq, not a star) was higher than Melo's right now. I think og said it was 14.6% in his rookie year.</div> An interesting point. Would have to see the stats of all/most players labeled slashers personally for me to respond. Good point nonetheless. To og15, good points. What about LeBron James though? He is assisted the same as Wade, yet there is only a 5 percent differential in Inside%. James has a 15.8 DrawF%, and yet Wade has 19.5. James also shoots a slightly higher FGA than Wade. Is that 5 percent the difference between 3.7? Or does Wade favortism play a part in that scenario? Also og15, if Wade was assisted more (Carmelo like nuimber) would you say that his DrawF% would be down? I really wish I had access to stats for previous seasons so I can research this more indepth. I would like to see D-Wades stats for previous seasons. Can 82 games go into previous seasons?
<div class="quote_poster">Franchise4Ever Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Dwyane Wade has a 38% inside shot selection. If I go to Dwight Howard of the Magic who stands at 81%, and Amare who stands at 59% they don't even scratch Wade's FTA's per game. I'm sure durvasa could help make this explanation more indepth, as I know he has some crazy stats that show calls made per 48 minutes or something towards that player. </div> You're comparing apples to oranges. Perimeter players and big men draw fouls in very different ways. That's number one. Second, it doesn't make sense to compare % of FGA that were inside shots as one variable, and FTA per game as another. Wade will naturally average more FTA per game because he plays more minutes, and he attempts to score more often. If anything, look at how often the player drew a foul on a scoring attempt. For Howard it's 24.8%, for Amare it's 23.8%, and for Wade it's 19.5%. For 82games previous seasons: http://www.82games.com/teams06.htm
I dont have the time to read through all of this, but from what ive seen, i came to this conclusion... Og15 and durvasa are the best at argueing ever, and are the real "untouchable" ones here. Now what are we arguing about so i can join in?
superstars like wade are always gonna get calls, so people should get used to it even if its not fair (which is completely true).
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You're comparing apples to oranges. Perimeter players and big men draw fouls in very different ways. That's number one. Second, it doesn't make sense to compare % of FGA that were inside shots as one variable, and FTA per game as another. Wade will naturally average more FTA per game because he plays more minutes, and he attempts to score more often. If anything, look at how often the player drew a foul on a scoring attempt. For Howard it's 24.8%, for Amare it's 23.8%, and for Wade it's 19.5%.</div> Yes, I understand that durvasa. Like I've said a million times, comparing Wade and Amare is a poor example. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">For 82games previous seasons: http://www.82games.com/teams06.htm</div> Thank you for that. I've now seen Wades previous seasons compared to this one, and each year he's attacked the rim less and less, and yet his DrawF% is either staying the same, or getting higher. That just puts the "he is a slasher" arguement to a stand still. If he is attacking the rim less and less, yet his DrawF% is either still the same, or higher, then something isn't right. Same thing goes for LeBron James. His FGA rises slightly each year, as well as his Inside% always fluctuates, yet his DrawF% is going gradually up. Can we attribute this to his "superstar" status? One thing to note though, is that even though James' DrawF% is gradually going up, it doesn't even touch Wades. For example: James was ast'd slightly less than Wade, had more FGA, but his DrawF% isn't near his. Granted Wade was inside more, but only by a 4% margine in 2005-2006. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Omarion:</div><div class="quote_post">I have to say og15 has backed up his opinion with this data very well. I'll just respond to Franchise4ever's using Carmelo and his drawF% of 12%. If the claim is that Wade's star power is due to his DrawF (or the claim he pays the refs), then it wouldn't make sense that Wade's rookie year DrawF% (without Shaq, not a star) was higher than Melo's right now. I think og said it was 14.6% in his rookie year. </div> Now I can answer this. Because Wade was constantly inside his rookie year(50%), and had a low FGA(13.0) his DrawF% was high. It is the same scenario with Tony Allen and Corey Magette with their high DrawF%. It is attributed to that they are attacking the rim most of the time, and they don't attemot many shots per game. This isn't the case for Wades 2nd year forward. He has attacked the rim less and less, and gotten more and more FGA, yet his DrawF% either went up or stood the same at 19%. Wade does get more calls than others, and it isn't solely attributed to "he slashes". I don't know what conclusion to come at, other than Wade gets a higher level of superstar status than others. Maybe durvasa or og15 can help me here. By the way, thanks for showing me previous seasons durvasa.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade paying the refs? no not at all, David Stern sorts the payment out.</div> LMAO
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This isn't the case for Wades 2nd year forward. He has attacked the rim less and less, and gotten more and more FGA, yet his DrawF% either went up or stood the same at 19%. </div> I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that he has matured as a player and is now more adept at drawing fouls.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">To og15, good points. What about LeBron James though? He is assisted the same as Wade, yet there is only a 5 percent differential in Inside%. James has a 15.8 DrawF%, and yet Wade has 19.5. James also shoots a slightly higher FGA than Wade. Is that 5 percent the difference between 3.7? Or does Wade favortism play a part in that scenario?</div> Lebron has never been as good at drawing fouls as Wade, even when they were rookies. From watching games, to me, part of that is because at times when Lebron drives, because of his power, people will clear out when he's taken off, while with Wade, the same thing doesn't really happen since Wade isn't going to eat you alive. That would cause a slight difference, and also because Wade is better at drawing fouls, I don't think it's anything devious. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also og15, if Wade was assisted more (Carmelo like nuimber) would you say that his DrawF% would be down?</div> Well I don't think he can play like Carmelo does. First of all, Carmelo is in a different offense, but he's also a power SF, and can seal his man well, and get those easy baskets, Wade can't do that at SG. If Wade was to get assisted more, it would be him just shooting more of his jumpers off catch and shoots coming off screens as opposed to his inside shots being assisted more, so it wouldn't change anything really. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Because Wade was constantly inside his rookie year(50%), and had a low FGA(13.0) his DrawF% was high. It is the same scenario with Tony Allen and Corey Magette with their high DrawF%. It is attributed to that they are attacking the rim most of the time, and they don't attemot many shots per game. This isn't the case for Wades 2nd year forward. He has attacked the rim less and less, and gotten more and more FGA, yet his DrawF% either went up or stood the same at 19%.</div> Three things come into play here. Remember the touch foul rules started being called more in 04-05, there was a league wide increase in most (it's never all) slashing type players' FT attempts that year, not just relating to Wade. I'll show the numbers from non 03-04 rookies. <u>03-04 to 04-05, Inside%, FTA/48 and Foul Draw %</u> Pierce - (23%, 9.8 and 13.3%) to (30%, 10.8 and 15.4%) Iverson - (28%, 10.7 and 13.7%) to (32%, 11.9 and 14.1%) Vince (22%, 7.2 and 7.5%) to (on the Nets, 30%, 8.4 and 10.7%) McGrady (20%, 9.0 and 12.0%) to (23%, 8.4 and 12.2%) Kobe (34%, 10.5 FT/48, 14.8%) to (29%, 11.9 FT/48, 16.0%) Corey (37%, 11.4 FTA/48, 20%) to (29%, 12.9 FT/48, 21.2%) Rip (29%, 5.9 FT/48, 9.6%) to (26%, 7.0 FT/48, 11.6%) We can see a general increase for most guys. Some guys like Kobe, Rip and Maggette were scoring inside less, but drawing even more fouls. Vince is an interesting case because while he scored inside more on the Nets, they used him more in the post, so part of his inside increase is more fadeaway jumpers from the block, and not actually driving inside. There's also that natural progression as a player, you can't expect him not to be capable of improving his ability to draw fouls. For example, look at Bosh, as a rookie, he had 38% of his shots inside, and 15.6% FoulD, in 04-05, 39% inside, and 19.9% FoulD. Amare from 03-04 to 04-05 had 47-48% inside play, but increased his foul draw% from 19.7 to 23.0%. Young players can improve in an area like this, especially when they rise in the option rank. Lastly, when a player rises as an option, there also seems to be a corelation to increased drawing of fouls. They have the ball in the hands more, so they're the ones getting the FT's for no shooting fouls when the team is in the bonus. Another example, Kevin Martin going from just another option to almost a first option in Sacramento. Comparing last season to this season: (33% inside, 5.6 FT/48, 14% foul draw) to (27% inside, 9.3 FTA/48, 18% foul draw)
<div class="quote_poster">Franchise4Ever Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Way more than Wade in terms of attacking the rim and yet he still doesn't match Mr. Wade in terms of drawing the foul. A mystery don't you agree? </div> Not really. There is a difference between going into account, and going away from contact. VC is a prime example of a player who avoids contact. Hence his slightly less FT attempts. I'm a Raptors fan. I should know. He's notorious for being a baby. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It was a poor example though. You used a big man who is in the paint for the majority of the game. They also draw a lot of fouls because of their size, notable Dwight with the hack'a Shaq method.</div> Fair enough. You're right, it was stupid to mention it on my part. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">They both get to the basket and slash, VC doesn't do "gay floaters" all the time. Wade gets a considerable more amount of foul drawing than VC, yet Wade only has a slight advantage in terms of going towards the hoop. These fouls he is drawing isn't due to him "slashing".</div> That's where you're wrong. VC does do gay floaters, he does do gay 10-12 foot fades. He doesn't go into the defender, he goes away. Wade is the best slasher in the league. It's impossible to prove me wrong because it's true. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not at all, you made an arguement without even basing it purely on stats. I am kind of done atm with this arguement. No one wants to back down, even though it is FACT that Wade gets arguably the most calls of all the superstars and the reason isn't solely because "he slashes".</div> I made an argument from watching Wade play. Which to me is a lot more reliable then stats. You're "fact" is a matter of opinion, and I actually agree with you. However it is because "he slashes".
