Well, I can't remember a team losing a close game or series who hasn't complained about the officiating. The calls aren't all going to be perfect, and everybody always thinks the refs are against them. The people who complain about the calls Wade gets are either the ones whose team just got picked apart by him, or Kobe fans who feel threatened that their favourite player has some serious comepetition for the title of best player in the league. People complained about Jordan for getting all the calls for the exact same reasons.
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well, I can't remember a team losing a close game or series who hasn't complained about the officiating. The calls aren't all going to be perfect, and everybody always thinks the refs are against them. The people who complain about the calls Wade gets are either the ones whose team just got picked apart by him, or Kobe fans who feel threatened that their favourite player has some serious comepetition for the title of best player in the league. People complained about Jordan for getting all the calls for the exact same reasons.</div> Uh no, 16 FT a game is not normal. The founder of 82games.com already wrote about this and he has plenty of credibility. The Finals was messed up, this is not just some instance of a team complaining about calls. You have already been proven wrong by stating Wade didn't "alter" the Finals with the calls he got. People should realize that Championships are a team accomplishment anyway, they mean little. Wade played great in the playoffs, that's more important in determining how good of a player he is than actually getting a ring. Wade is a top 5 player, but the Mavs are a better team. Even if the Heat lost that series, that shouldn't change where people rank Wade. It shouldn't even matter to you at all that the Heat stole a title, you should just be happy Wade played well.
So its messed up when Wade gets 16 FT in a game, yet you don't comment when Kobe gets 19, 1 less than the Warriors combined? Just face it, Kobe gets just as many questionable calls as Wade, it just seems like less because he is attacking less. I believe Og15 already proved this earlier. Yes Wade got questionable calls in the finals, but when you are just attacking relentlessly, you are bound to get a lot of calls and the refs are going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Besides, we saw many times last year that the Mavs defense wasn't exactly adept at stopping perennial guards (a la Kobe dropping 60+ on them).
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So its messed up when Wade gets 16 FT in a game, yet you don't comment when Kobe gets 19, 1 less than the Warriors combined? Just face it, Kobe gets just as many questionable calls as Wade, it just seems like less because he is attacking less. I believe Og15 already proved this earlier. Yes Wade got questionable calls in the finals, but when you are just attacking relentlessly, you are bound to get a lot of calls and the refs are going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Besides, we saw many times last year that the Mavs defense wasn't exactly adept at stopping perennial guards (a la Kobe dropping 60+ on them).</div> What did og15 prove about Wade in the Finals? I missed that. I do know though, that Game 5 ended in a phantom call. A Championship game decided by a no-call; that's terrible. Guy, you can whine all you want but I already stated the Lakers stole that Game 6 against the Kings in the WCF. I'm very objective as you can see. When Kobe averages a ridiculous amount of FTs in the Finals (in a 6 game series), not some regular season game against the Warriors, you'll hear me bitch about it.
Have you considered that the Mavs had poor perimeter D last year, thus accounting for a lot of fouls? Kobe averaged nearly 17 FTA per game last year against the Mavs including a 25 FTA game. Well gee, that's as many as Wade averaged, and we can almost certainly say that Wade is not only a better slasher than Kobe, but he's better at drawing contact. Hmm maybe there is something to this theory about the Mavs D being foul-prone.
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Have you considered that the Mavs had poor perimeter D last year, thus accounting for a lot of fouls? Kobe averaged nearly 17 FTA per game last year against the Mavs including a 25 FTA game. Well gee, that's as many as Wade averaged, and we can almost certainly say that Wade is not only a better slasher than Kobe, but he's better at drawing contact. Hmm maybe there is something to this theory about the Mavs D being foul-prone.</div> But if you acknowledge that Wade got a bunch of BS calls whether or not he is a good slasher, and the games in the Finals were only decided by a few points, then my original comment is true (and a game was still decided by an imaginary foul). The series was altered. That's all that matters.
Alright, the series was altered. Doesn't change the fact that Wade has a ring and a finals MVP under his belt, and the Lakers-King series alteration doesn't change the fact that Kobe has that extra title. My stats for Kobe against the Mavs though prove that Kobe gets just as many calls as Wade. I'll say it again, Wade was attacking so much in that series that the refs were forced to give him the benefit of the doubt.
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Alright, the series was altered. Doesn't change the fact that Wade has a ring and a finals MVP under his belt, and the Lakers-King series alteration doesn't change the fact that Kobe has that extra title. My stats for Kobe against the Mavs though prove that Kobe gets just as many calls as Wade. I'll say it again, Wade was attacking so much in that series that the refs were forced to give him the benefit of the doubt.</div> But those stats are misleading imo. First, Kobe was on Pace for 80 points when he had those 25 FTs. He was having a "good day" to say the least. The Finals should also be officiated more strictly. Game 5 will always be a terribly officiated game in the history books. Wade and Kobe are still great though, so you fans shouldn't even mind to be honest.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brian:</div><div class="quote_post">lol. Okay. So the NBA Finals were fair right? The refs were definetly not on Dwyane Wade's side. Riiiiiight</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brian:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not saying the Finals were rigged. It's just that refs now have the ability to decide to outcomes of the games. They just simply have too much power</div> You were saying/implying that they were rigged. The refs don't have some sort of agenda heading into a game. Now they can consistently make the same sort of b.s. calls, but that doesn't mean they're trying to help a team win. I mean, what possible reason would they have to do that? (Don't say Stern wants them to, because the League and the referees have had a notoriously shaky relationship). btw, I was wondering if anyone had the FTA of the rest of the players during the Finals. If the other players (guards in particular) attempted more FT's than their average, than I don't see how the criticism can be focused solely on Wade. It might not have happened that way at all, but I'm curious.
<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> btw, I was wondering if anyone had the FTA of the rest of the players during the Finals. If the other players (guards in particular) attempted more FT's than their average, than I don't see how the criticism can be focused solely on Wade.</div> <u> Doesn't look good:</u> Game Five: Dal- 25 FT Mia- 49 FT (Wade attempted 25) Game Six: Dal- 23 FT Mia- 37 FT (Wade attempted 21)
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"><u> Doesn't look good:</u> Game Five: Dal- 25 FT Mia- 49 FT (Wade attempted 25) Game Six: Dal- 23 FT Mia- 37 FT (Wade attempted 21)</div> But if you watched those games, Dallas wasn't being agressive. When I was watching the game, I was thinking Dallas you got to take it to the rack. But I think Mourning was in the back of their minds or something. Also I want to ask, (og15 or Durvasa if you guys are up for it, if not its all good) what was the second highest (or top 5) FTApg (or per 48 minutes) throughout a series that year and by which player(s). As well as if that was higher than the player(s) season average.
<div class="quote_poster">Omarion Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">But if you watched those games, Dallas wasn't being agressive. When I was watching the game, I was like Dallas you got to take it to the rack. But I think Mourning was in the back of their minds or something.</div> And if you watched those games, the Heat were also getting calls (and Wade had the most FTpg in the history of the Finals I believe). Just take Game 5 for example. The Mavericks lost by one point and the Heat had 24 more FTs. It only took one bad call to decide this game.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And if you watched those games, the Heat were also getting calls (and Wade had the most FTpg in the history of the Finals I believe). Just take Game 5 for example. The Mavericks lost by one point and the Heat had 24 more FTs. It only took one bad call to decide this game.</div> Sorry I shouldn't have said "but if you watched those games" (I'm guessing you did), I meant when I watched those games. As well to note that guys like Damp and Diop are willing to foul guys and make them earn it at the stripe. Miami is less willing to let Shaq/Mourning get into foul trouble. I think if Dallas attacked the rim hard they would have gotten more calls, the refs were in a calling fouls mood, but I think having Mourning patrolling the paint and having a guy like Diop on the floor who isn't a great offensive presence allowing Mourning to rotate more easily messed up Dallas' penetrations. It only took one bad call to decide the game, however maybe Dallas got a bad call go there way (which would have equally changed the score as a call later in the game, but one wouldn't know it at the time) earlier in the game (obviously wouldn't be as instilled in one's memory as the last play of the game).
<div class="quote_poster">Omarion Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> It only took one bad call to decide the game, however maybe Dallas got a bad call go there way (which would have equally changed the score as a call later in the game, but one wouldn't know it at the time) earlier in the game (obviously wouldn't be as instilled in one's memory as the last play of the game).</div> No, the Mavs deserved that one. http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm And for a summary of every single call: http://www.82games.com/gamerefs.htm
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">No, the Mavs deserved that one. http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm And for a summary of every single call: http://www.82games.com/gamerefs.htm</div> I'm glad you posted that, I find it an interesting article. It seems well done, I do still think that the Mavs lack of agressiveness did play a big role and the Refs played a smaller role. One thing to note from the article:<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">the NBA officials have very tough jobs, and it's one thing to make calls after watching the plays in slow motion several times, another to do it instantaneously as it happens.</div>
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You're obviously acting all pissy about this because Wade dismantled the Pistons in the semis. He shot 70% from the field. 70%. He didn't need the refs to single-handedly own the Pistons. When Wade goes to the line 18 times in a single game, you guys are whining regardless of whether the fouls are legit or not. I admit he does get superstar calls and he got some questionable calls in the finals, but only about 1 or 2 a game, not enough to alter the finals or enough to account for the fact that Dirk got calls too. Kobe shot 19 FTs the other night, 1 less than the entire GSW team. Why isn't anybody b*tching about that?</div> Questionable calls? only 1 or 2 a game? funny stuff. The guy took like 70+ FT's in the final 4 freaking games. It isn't just about the free-throws It's how he gets the calls and what he gets away with Is what annoys people. BTW Wade shot 61% Vs the Pistons not 70%. Credit where's due, Miami beat the Pistons last season. However Pistons beat them the year before and they have won 3 championships. Seeing as how you like to mention previous series.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">No, the Mavs deserved that one. http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm And for a summary of every single call: http://www.82games.com/gamerefs.htm</div> I didn't read the article, just the calls from quarter to qaurter, so I assume the questionable calls were the highlighted ones? Wade had 2 questionable calls in his favour all game, and they could have gone either way. Way have already seen evidence that he was fouled twice on that last drive, so I don't see how this article proves the refs gave Wade the game in that game 5.
<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't read the article, just the calls from quarter to qaurter, so I assume the questionable calls were the highlighted ones? Wade had 2 questionable calls in his favour all game, and they could have gone either way. Way have already seen evidence that he was fouled twice on that last drive, so I don't see how this article proves the refs gave Wade the game in that game 5.</div> Wow fellow, just read both articles, why would you only look at one? Wade was not fouled on that last play either. Game 5: The Heat got 50 favorable calls, and the Mavs got 38 favorable calls. There were about 18 questionable calls, the Heat won 13 of them. And why do you keep mentioning that there is evidence Wade was fouled on the last play? Jesus Christ, he palmed the ball, committed an offensive foul, and then got a touch/phantom call from the ref at the three point line (the ref at the baseline said nothing). It says "very dubious" next to that call. Wade had 73 FTs in the last four games they won, that is 18.25 a game.
In terms of questionable calls, I don't know if there's a game where there aren't a decent amount of questionable calls. Sometimes it's due to angle of ref/viewer, what people are looking at in terms of calling the foul (body, arm etc), and sometimes it's just a bad call. I don't believe that total amount of calls means much, Miami has a team that should draw more fouls anyways, because they have an elite slasher on their team. Anyways, in terms of drawing fouls, Wade through the playoffs as a whole averaged 10.9 FTA/G, 0.9 more FT's a game than Dirk. There's obviously problems with the rigged idea like why would they not be giving Wade "crazy" calls all the way through the playoffs, then suddenly decide to give them to him in the finals. Also the refs and the league aren't the best of friends, so I don't see how this is actually a realistic situation in anyone's mind. Arenas actually led the playoffs in FTA/G, but he only played 6 games, he actually played about 6 more minutes per game than Wade, and in the series against the Cavs averaged 11.7 FT's, or 70 FT's in 6 games. Carmelo though he played horrible against the Clips averaged 10.4 FTA/G in 5 games, 0.5 less than Wade, and playing 38.5 MPG to Wade's playoff 41.7 MPG average. Dirk himself averaged 10 a game through the post season, and was actually beating Wade heading into the finals IIRC. I mean seriously, even Vince averaged 9.8 FTA/G through 11 playoff games. Let's remember, we're talking about Wade. If you look at the foul by foul possible questionable call analysis, there were 3 calls (I'm not sure about one, but I think it was him) relating to Wade, two were maybe's (blocking fouls), and one was a v.dubious late game call. I don't believe that that actually supports the idea that Wade was getting phatom calls all over the place. I don't think the overall amount of calls actually favoured Miami down the stretch, I think it was really just the last call that favoured them, nothing else was really that bad. In the 4th according to the guy on 82 games, Miami had 3 maybe calls, Dallas had 1 dubious call. In OT, Miami had 1 v.dubious call, the last call, and Dallas had 2 maybe calls.
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> Let's remember, we're talking about Wade. If you look at the foul by foul possible questionable call analysis, there were 3 calls (I'm not sure about one, but I think it was him) relating to Wade, two were maybe's (blocking fouls), and one was a v.dubious late game call. I don't believe that that actually supports the idea that Wade was getting phatom calls all over the place. I don't think the overall amount of calls actually favoured Miami down the stretch, I think it was really just the last call that favoured them, nothing else was really that bad. In the 4th according to the guy on 82 games, Miami had 3 maybe calls, Dallas had 1 dubious call. In OT, Miami had 1 v.dubious call, the last call, and Dallas had 2 maybe calls.</div> The Heat experienced a net gain of 8 FTs per contest in the Finals (observing from a pre-final view). Btw, people are pissed off about the Finals, not the playoffs in general. Right, so how did the guy from 82games not show the Mavs got screwed in game five? They lost by one point. One more time, Wade was averaging 18 Free Throws a game (don't sit there and justify that) during those last four wins (during the Finals). From my own memory I could tell you Wade committed an offensive foul at the end of game six (with 26 seconds left) that wasn't called (they called it on Dirk instead); and that changed that entire game. The dubious calls don't just stop and start in game five and they were annoying (and for the record the "v. dubious" call was three calls in one).
