Bryant, Wade Resume Rivalry

<div class="quote_poster">Brian Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well, Kobe manned up to D. Wade, and stopped him in the 4th and OT. Kobe also had a terrific game so I don't really see the problem </div>

Yes Kobe outplayed DWade. What pisses me off though is that he always has a ready-made excuse in case he gets outplayed. This game it was the groin, which seems kind of weird since he probably played his best defense of the season. Last game it was the "cold". He doesn't need excuses in case he gets outshone, he should just go into the game and play.

 

<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yes Kobe outplayed DWade. What pisses me off though is that he always has a ready-made excuse in case he gets outplayed. This game it was the groin, which seems kind of weird since he probably played his best defense of the season. Last game it was the "cold". He doesn't need excuses in case he gets outshone, he should just go into the game and play.</div>

Kobe injured it in the Houston game and had to leave early (and the flu-like problems appeared in the Nets game before Christmas btw). That seems like a real "nagging type" of injury to me; it was just two games ago. Even if you don't buy it, I'm just happy for the win.

 

<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yes Kobe outplayed DWade. What pisses me off though is that he always has a ready-made excuse in case he gets outplayed. This game it was the groin, which seems kind of weird since he probably played his best defense of the season. Last game it was the "cold". He doesn't need excuses in case he gets outshone, he should just go into the game and play.</div>

To be fair, there was so much talk about Wade being hurt during the playoffs last year. I think all in all it would be better to injuries and excuses out of it. I think Sheed had a nice quote about it in the papers. Not that I agree with what it said, but people (refs, media, etc) really need to let the guys play basketball.

 

Either way you look at it, if Wade or Kobe gets outplayed, neither of them are going to use the injury as an excuse.

 

I did read it, but I don't buy the claim that it was a nagging injury. I've had groin pulls before and it kills to get down into a defensive stance. As you could tell, Kobe played his best defense of the season last night, so it obviously wasn't an issue at all.

 

<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I did read it, but I don't buy the claim that it was a nagging injury. I've had groin pulls before and it kills to get down into a defensive stance. As you could tell, Kobe played his best defense of the season last night, so it obviously wasn't an issue at all.</div>

Maybe its because he has been playing through the pain... something Kobe Bryant is known for doing. Kobe is often injured and doesn't make it public knowledge when he is hurt.

What we should really talk about is how an injured Kobe takes it on himself to guard the Miami Heat's best player and one of the hardest players in the league to defend against and Wade can't reciprocate. In fact... all of the leagues superstar guards do the same thing. They get guarded by Kobe and then let some "Defensive specialist" on their team swtich up to guard Kobe on offense.

I give lots of props to Kobe for taking on the challenge of guarding the other teams best guard night in and night out.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Maybe its because he has been playing through the pain... something Kobe Bryant is known for doing. Kobe is often injured and doesn't make it public knowledge when he is hurt.

What we should really talk about is how an injured Kobe takes it on himself to guard the Miami Heat's best player and one of the hardest players in the league to defend against and Wade can't reciprocate. In fact... all of the leagues superstar guards do the same thing. They get guarded by Kobe and then let some "Defensive specialist" on their team swtich up to guard Kobe on offense.

I give lots of props to Kobe for taking on the challenge of guarding the other teams best guard night in and night out.</div>

Because everyone knows the amount of times that Wade gets hit, he's completely unscathed. Because everyone knows that if you calculated the amount of times a player hit the deck, Wade would be a head of everyone. The amount of times he ACTUALLY gets fouled. See, only Kobe can play through pain. Because he's special.

Leave injury out of this. It's even less controllably then dumb refs. And I'll be willing to bet you my life savings that Wade is getting a lot more hurt then Kobe.

 

<div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I did read it, but I don't buy the claim that it was a nagging injury. I've had groin pulls before and it kills to get down into a defensive stance. As you could tell, Kobe played his best defense of the season last night, so it obviously wasn't an issue at all.</div>

hold up... did kobe exactly say that 'hey if dwade outplays me remember i have a groin injury' ? i dont thinki so... remember it's the media that says it all

 

<div class="quote_poster">kobe23 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">hold up... did kobe exactly say that 'hey if dwade outplays me remember i have a groin injury' ? i dont thinki so... remember it's the media that says it all</div>

Wade never said "Hey, remember I'm injured! If I play bad it's not my fault!" during the playoffs. But Piston fans and Laker fans were giving him a hell of a time over it. Explicitly calling a baby, other perhaps more offensive terms which would receive me an infraction.

 

<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Because everyone knows the amount of times that Wade gets hit, he's completely unscathed. Because everyone knows that if you calculated the amount of times a player hit the deck, Wade would be a head of everyone. The amount of times he ACTUALLY gets fouled. See, only Kobe can play through pain. Because he's special.

Leave injury out of this. It's even less controllably then dumb refs. And I'll be willing to bet you my life savings that Wade is getting a lot more hurt then Kobe.</div>

If you can find one post where I say... or even imply... that Wade does not get hurt or play through pain then you may have a good enough reason for your rebuttal of my post.

In an effort to try and make me sound as ridiculous as you can by addressing my supposed "Kobe plays hurt, but Wade doesn't" remarks, you have avoided the real issue of my post: KOBE GUARDS WADE... KOBE GUARDS T-MAC, KOBE GUARDS LEBRON, KOBE GUARDS ARENAS. WHO GUARDS KOBE?

 

<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Wade never said "Hey, remember I'm injured! If I play bad it's not my fault!" during the playoffs. But Piston fans and Laker fans were giving him a hell of a time over it. Explicitly calling a baby, other perhaps more offensive terms which would receive me an infraction.</div>

Dude... seriously. No one has said anything about Wade in here. Its simple really: Neither player is known for, or has used injury as an excuse for anything. So lets get past that.

What I think is far more important is all these superstar guards in the league who don't guard marquee players.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If you can find one post where I say... or even imply... that Wade does not get hurt or play through pain then you may have a good enough reason for your rebuttal of my post.

In an effort to try and make me sound as ridiculous as you can by addressing my supposed "Kobe plays hurt, but Wade doesn't" remarks, you have avoided the real issue of my post: KOBE GUARDS WADE... KOBE GUARDS T-MAC, KOBE GUARDS LEBRON, KOBE GUARDS ARENAS. WHO GUARDS KOBE?</div>

I never implied "Kobe plays hurt, but Wade doesn't". I'm saying that people were ridiculing Wade for playing injured. Saying he's a cry baby, etc etc, and I ESPECIALLY remember Laker fans making fun of him. So saying something like that about Kobe is nothing but hypocrisy.

I don't think that Wade can go around say, hey, I have Kobe. They have a coach for a reason. And if Kobe is such a great defender, I don't understand why he continually lets Wade get the upper hand in the past.

Who else is supposed to guard Wade? Smush? Walton? The only way to stop Miami is to stop Wade. Since Shaq isn't playing they focus on Wade. And there isn't anyone capable of playing Wade besides Kobe. Kobe is your best outside defender, so putting Walton on him would be a disaster. No offense to Walton of course, I think he's pretty underrated. But he doesn't have the laterals to stay with Wade.

 

<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I never implied "Kobe plays hurt, but Wade doesn't". I'm saying that people were ridiculing Wade for playing injured. Saying he's a cry baby, etc etc, and I ESPECIALLY remember Laker fans making fun of him. So saying something like that about Kobe is nothing but hypocrisy.

I don't think that Wade can go around say, hey, I have Kobe. They have a coach for a reason. And if Kobe is such a great defender, I don't understand why he continually lets Wade get the upper hand in the past.

Who else is supposed to guard Wade? Smush? Walton? The only way to stop Miami is to stop Wade. Since Shaq isn't playing they focus on Wade. And there isn't anyone capable of playing Wade besides Kobe. Kobe is your best outside defender, so putting Walton on him would be a disaster. No offense to Walton of course, I think he's pretty underrated. But he doesn't have the laterals to stay with Wade.</div>

So because some stupid Lakers fans are going to call Wade a cry baby... your reaction is to do the same stupid thing to Kobe?! If you can find the specific Laker fan that did that then maybe you and them can have a private PM battle.... but to come in here trying to hit back at Laker fans for some percieved wrong many of us did not do is the real hypocrisy. And quite frankly... even if every last one of us did what you are saying we did, two wrongs don't make a right do they?

Kobe could conserve energy by allowing Mo Evans to guard Wade. But in any case, lets say Kobe HAS to guard Wade. Isn't Wade also the best perimeter defender on the Heat? If you actually watch the game Wade doesn't blow by Kobe too many times at all. He uses a screen off the pick and roll to take Kobe out of the equation and then goes to the paint. The help defense often doesn't rotate around fast enough for the Lakers... Lamar was doing a good job of that before he got hurt.

And it isn't just Wade that Kobe guards. Kobe also guards Lebron, McGrady, Carter, Ray Allen, and Arenas. Not one of those players regularly guards Bryant. To me that is the penultimate reason why Kobe has separated himself from the rest. Kobe remains one of the few superstars in this league who carries his team defensively as well as offensively when its necessary.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So because some stupid Lakers fans are going to call Wade a cry baby... your reaction is to do the same stupid thing to Kobe?! If you can find the specific Laker fan that did that then maybe you and them can have a private PM battle.... but to come in here trying to hit back at Laker fans for some percieved wrong many of us did not do is the real hypocrisy. And quite frankly... even if every last one of us did what you are saying we did, two wrongs don't make a right do they?

Kobe could conserve energy by allowing Mo Evans to guard Wade. But in any case, lets say Kobe HAS to guard Wade. Isn't Wade also the best perimeter defender on the Heat? If you actually watch the game Wade doesn't blow by Kobe too many times at all. He uses a screen off the pick and roll to take Kobe out of the equation and then goes to the paint. The help defense often doesn't rotate around fast enough for the Lakers... Lamar was doing a good job of that before he got hurt.

And it isn't just Wade that Kobe guards. Kobe also guards Lebron, McGrady, Carter, Ray Allen, and Arenas. Not one of those players regularly guards Bryant. To me that is the penultimate reason why Kobe has separated himself from the rest. Kobe remains one of the few superstars in this league who carries his team defensively as well as offensively when its necessary.</div>

Please quote me where I called Kobe a crybaby. I never said he was a crybaby. I said that we should leave injuries out of it. I respect Kobe, because the most talented player in the world. He's not a crybaby and he plays through pain. So, please quote me where I directly said, or even implied that he was a crybaby.

I never tried to start anything. I'm just saying that pointing out the Kobe was or wasn't injured and tried to guard the other teams best player is pointless, and has no place in the discussion.

Please stop accusing me of attacking anyone, I didn't nor do I intend to.

If you ask me, Gary Payton is the best perimeter defender, followed by Posey. Wade isn't too sharp of a 1 on 1 defender. I think he's much better at team defense, i.e. blocks, steals, etc.

Evans would get killed by Wade. There are only a few defenders who could make Wade adjust his game, and one of them is Kobe imo.

The Detroit pistons, imo, had the best defensive rotation in the league, and they couldn't keep Wade out of the paint. Why would the Lakers be able to?

So, the reason why Kobe is better then everyone else is because star players don't regularly guard him, while he guards them? That doesn't make too much sense to me, I'd rather base who's the best off their and their teams performance, and not their individual match ups.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">That doesn't make too much sense to me, I'd rather base who's the best off their and their teams performance, and not their individual match ups.</div>

So if Kobe played poor D on Wade but the rest of the Lakers played solid D you would say Kobe had a good game defensively? Wade played poor D through out the game. Luke Walton looked like an offensive beast against Wade. He spun him when Wade gambled for the steal and managed to get a couple of easy layups and draw a foul with his post offense.

 

<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Please quote me where I called Kobe a crybaby. I never said he was a crybaby. I said that we should leave injuries out of it. I respect Kobe, because the most talented player in the world. He's not a crybaby and he plays through pain. So, please quote me where I directly said, or even implied that he was a crybaby.

I never tried to start anything. I'm just saying that pointing out the Kobe was or wasn't injured and tried to guard the other teams best player is pointless, and has no place in the discussion.

Please stop accusing me of attacking anyone, I didn't nor do I intend to.

If you ask me, Gary Payton is the best perimeter defender, followed by Posey. Wade isn't too sharp of a 1 on 1 defender. I think he's much better at team defense, i.e. blocks, steals, etc.

Evans would get killed by Wade. There are only a few defenders who could make Wade adjust his game, and one of them is Kobe imo.

The Detroit pistons, imo, had the best defensive rotation in the league, and they couldn't keep Wade out of the paint. Why would the Lakers be able to?

So, the reason why Kobe is better then everyone else is because star players don't regularly guard him, while he guards them? That doesn't make too much sense to me, I'd rather base who's the best off their and their teams performance, and not their individual match ups.</div>

Ok point taken.

So on to the meat of the matter then:

So you are going to base who is best off of TEAM performance? Hmmm... are you sure that makes sense. Is it possible for a player on a not so well performing team to be better than a player on a better performing team. Even better... is Kobe better than Wade because the Lakers have a better record than the Heat. No. And this is not the thread for that argument.

But I will point out that the fact that Kobe does take on harder defensive assignments while carrying the same offensive load as the other guys does point to SOMETHING.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Laker_fan Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So if Kobe played poor D on Wade but the rest of the Lakers played solid D you would say Kobe had a good game defensively? Wade played poor D through out the game. Luke Walton looked like an offensive beast against Wade. He spun him when Wade gambled for the steal and managed to get a couple of easy layups and draw a foul with his post offense.</div>

The only reason Luke looked like an offensive beast against Wade is because thats a bad match up for Wade in terms of size and length down in the post. That match up was caused because the Heat did not want Wade guarding Kobe... so the switch up often meant that Wade was left guarding Luke some of the time. This worked in favour of the Lakers and I think they know it as evidenced by Kobe taking so few shots and deferring to Cook and Walton early on.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Laker_fan Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So if Kobe played poor D on Wade but the rest of the Lakers played solid D you would say Kobe had a good game defensively? Wade played poor D through out the game. Luke Walton looked like an offensive beast against Wade. He spun him when Wade gambled for the steal and managed to get a couple of easy layups and draw a foul with his post offense.</div>

Kobe played better then Wade because he had a good game off of his individual performance playing defense against Wade. And his team won. Props to Kobe for playing some good basketball. Just weigh the player individual performance, and see how it affected his team for that particular game. On Christmas Wade came on top. The last game Kobe did.

You do realize that Luke Walton has 4 inches on Wade. And he still went 4-12 for the game. That's pretty much asking Kobe to guard Chris Bosh in the post. Granted, Chris Bosh is a lot better then Walton. But as a guy who is good enough to play in the NBA, and who's dad is Bill Walton, he should be able to take someone who is 4 inches shorter then him. If he couldn't he should not be in this league.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok point taken.

So on to the meat of the matter then:

So you are going to base who is best off of TEAM performance? Hmmm... are you sure that makes sense. Is it possible for a player on a not so well performing team to be better than a player on a better performing team. Even better... is Kobe better than Wade because the Lakers have a better record than the Heat. No. And this is not the thread for that argument.

But I will point out that the fact that Kobe does take on harder defensive assignments while carrying the same offensive load as the other guys does point to SOMETHING.</div>

No, I'm saying you have evaluate both the individuals performance, and then the teams performance. And I agree with you, just because a player has a better team record then the other player does not make him worse or better. But when you get to such a high level like Kobe and Wade, you have to take record into account, and how much they matter to their team. Just like I think you have to do when evaluating the MVP. Of course, it's irrelevant either way.

You're right. He does have a lot tougher defensive assignment. And he does do just as much and a lot of the times more then any other player in the league on the offensive end. And you're right, it definitely goes to his favor for that point. However I don't believe it proves he's better or worse then any other guy. It just means he's the teams best available defensive option. If you guys had Ron Artest or Bruce Bowen, or someone like that, I don't believe Kobe would be guarding the best player.