<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe played better then Wade because he had a good game off of his individual performance playing defense against Wade. And his team won. Props to Kobe for playing some good basketball. Just weigh the player individual performance, and see how it affected his team for that particular game. On Christmas Wade came on top. The last game Kobe did. You do realize that Luke Walton has 4 inches on Wade. And he still went 4-12 for the game. That's pretty much asking Kobe to guard Chris Bosh in the post. Granted, Chris Bosh is a lot better then Walton. But as a guy who is good enough to play in the NBA, and who's dad is Bill Walton, he should be able to take someone who is 4 inches shorter then him. If he couldn't he should not be in this league. No, I'm saying you have evaluate both the individuals performance, and then the teams performance. And I agree with you, just because a player has a better team record then the other player does not make him worse or better. But when you get to such a high level like Kobe and Wade, you have to take record into account, and how much they matter to their team. Just like I think you have to do when evaluating the MVP. Of course, it's irrelevant either way. You're right. He does have a lot tougher defensive assignment. And he does do just as much and a lot of the times more then any other player in the league on the offensive end. And you're right, it definitely goes to his favor for that point. However I don't believe it proves he's better or worse then any other guy. It just means he's the teams best available defensive option. If you guys had Ron Artest or Bruce Bowen, or someone like that, I don't believe Kobe would be guarding the best player.</div> Kobe has played with defensive stoppers in the past, but is still called upon to defend the #1 option when the game is on the line. He did it when he played with Eddie Jones, and he did when Rick Fox was on the team. Kobe was the player the Lakers went with to cool down a hot player. I'm not sure how effective Bruce Bowen would be on the Laker team, we don't have Tim Duncan patrolling the post. Ron Artest I agree, is a better one-on-one defender than Kobe and probably any other player in the league he wants to be. Ron Artest can also shoulder a team's offense.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe has played with defensive stoppers in the past, but is still called upon to defend the #1 option when the game is on the line. He did it when he played with Eddie Jones, and he did when Rick Fox was on the team. Kobe was the player the Lakers went with to cool down a hot player. I'm not sure how effective Bruce Bowen would be on the Laker team, we don't have Tim Duncan patrolling the post. Ron Artest I agree, is a better one-on-one defender than Kobe and probably any other player in the league he wants to be. Ron Artest can also shoulder a team's offense.</div> I don't believe Eddie Jones was ever a premier defensive stopper. Jones is a good defender, but I don't consider him to be a stopper. Same goes for Fox, an excellent defender, but he isn't a guy that you just give him an assignment and he can lock him down. They're simply good, not great. imo anyway. And I'd take Payton at 37 years old (or however old he is) over Jones or Fox without thinking. If Gary really wanted to be one of the best defender in the league, he easily could. But he's old, and doesn't care much about the game anymore besides getting that ring last year. And I think his performance in the playoffs proved it. There isn't enough incentive for him to return to his old form. Bruce Bowen is dirty. That sums him up. He knows how to play dirty. And that's a tremendous advantage to any team, especially frustrating star players. I'm not trying to take anything away from Kobe. He's a brilliant defender. But if you guys had Artest or Bowen, or someone like that. You would not see Kobe defending Wade, unless of course Kobe explicitly told Phil he wanted the cover.
<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't believe Eddie Jones was ever a premier defensive stopper. Jones is a good defender, but I don't consider him to be a stopper. Same goes for Fox, an excellent defender, but he isn't a guy that you just give him an assignment and he can lock him down. They're simply good, not great. imo anyway. And I'd take Payton at 37 years old (or however old he is) over Jones or Fox without thinking. If Gary really wanted to be one of the best defender in the league, he easily could. But he's old, and doesn't care much about the game anymore besides getting that ring last year. And I think his performance in the playoffs proved it. There isn't enough incentive for him to return to his old form. Bruce Bowen is dirty. That sums him up. He knows how to play dirty. And that's a tremendous advantage to any team, especially frustrating star players. I'm not trying to take anything away from Kobe. He's a brilliant defender. But if you guys had Artest or Bowen, or someone like that. You would not see Kobe defending Wade, unless of course Kobe explicitly told Phil he wanted the cover.</div> Eddie Jones made a career out of being able to defend players. He was named to the NBA All-Defensive 2nd team three straight seasons. He was known as a lock down defensive specialist throughout his career. When he played with the Heat, he was their lockdown wing defender. Rick Fox was also known for his dirty, physical defense when he played for the Lakers.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Eddie Jones made a career out of being able to defend players. He was named to the NBA All-Defensive 2nd team three straight seasons. He was known as a lock down defensive specialist throughout his career. When he played with the Heat, he was their lockdown wing defender. Rick Fox was also known for his dirty, physical defense when he played for the Lakers.</div> Eddie Jones made a career out of playing good defense. When he was playing along with Wade, he was already getting the tough covers. He really helped Wade because it hid his weakness as a defensive player. But I never saw him lock anyone down. There is a difference between playing good or excellent defense and "stopping" someone. I think it's the definition of a stopper that we disagree with. Which really has no remedy except being agreed to disagree on. Rick Fox is not nearly as dirty as Bowen. I have yet to see anyone be more frustrating, obtrusive and dangerous then Bowen. He's a guy that will end a players career. I never considered Fox to be dirty, he was just a very physical player. They're quite a lot of physical players that stay in the league just because they are willing to fight and sacrifice their bodies. I've always put Fox in that category.
<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Eddie Jones made a career out of playing good defense. When he was playing along with Wade, he was already getting the tough covers. He really helped Wade because it hid his weakness as a defensive player. But I never saw him lock anyone down. There is a difference between playing good or excellent defense and "stopping" someone. I think it's the definition of a stopper that we disagree with. Which really has no remedy except being agreed to disagree on. Rick Fox is not nearly as dirty as Bowen. I have yet to see anyone be more frustrating, obtrusive and dangerous then Bowen. He's a guy that will end a players career. I never considered Fox to be dirty, he was just a very physical player. They're quite a lot of physical players that stay in the league just because they are willing to fight and sacrifice their bodies. I've always put Fox in that category.</div> You don't get named to the NBA All Defensive 2nd Team three straight seasons if you aren't getting it done on defense. It's one of the few awards that actually means something these days, because it's voted on by your peers. Eddie Jones was definitely locking down players even in Miami. In the Nets series, Eddie Jones made several defensive stops to allow Miami to advance. He was the difference maker defensively in that series. Rick Fox wasn't in the same league as Bowen for being dirty. But Fox was scrappy, and crossed the line quite a few times.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You don't get named to the NBA All Defensive 2nd Team three straight seasons if you aren't getting it done on defense. It's one of the few awards that actually means something these days, because it's voted on by your peers. Eddie Jones was definitely locking down players even in Miami. In the Nets series, Eddie Jones made several defensive stops to allow Miami to advance. He was the difference maker defensively in that series. Rick Fox wasn't in the same league as Bowen for being dirty. But Fox was scrappy, and crossed the line quite a few times.</div> If you're going to by those standards then PJ Brown is a defensive stopper. Which I certainly can't agree with. If you want to base a player off some crucial defensive stops then Prince is a stopper. Which again, I just don't agree with. I guess I don't remember the series too great, but I'll take your word for it, because I was probably about 13 years old when it happened.
<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If you're going to by those standards then PJ Brown is a defensive stopper. Which I certainly can't agree with. If you want to base a player off some crucial defensive stops then Prince is a stopper. Which again, I just don't agree with. I guess I don't remember the series too great, but I'll take your word for it, because I was probably about 13 years old when it happened.</div> Well if you're 13 then, you're 15 now? And when Eddie Jones was a Laker in the late 90's, you'd be 6 or so? You probably just didn't experience Eddie Jones back then, but he was a great defensive player. PJ Brown was also a great defensive player. Perhaps your defenition of a defensive stopper is different than mine, which I why we disagree.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">If you want to base a player off some crucial defensive stops then Prince is a stopper.</div> I would definitely consider Prince a defensive threat. Hard to say stopper, but in the end I would go with my gut and say yes. Also, I hope by stopper we aren't talking NBA Live standards where they just block shots out of nowhere.
When I say stopper I mean someone who literally just clamp down own a star and force him to play his game. Force him to adjust. Change their shots, change their game. You want them to hate playing your team just because of you. I don't think if I'm a superstar like Kobe, or Tracy, LBJ, or Wade for that matter I would be scared of what Rick Fox, or Eddie Jones is going to do to me. I've only see EJ plays with the Heat and the Lakers. I saw him save the Heat a lot in the playoffs. Because Wade or any other player on their wouldn't be able to guard the other teams best perimeter players. But he doesn't strike me as a stopper when I did see him. So I'll just give you guys the benefit of the doubt on EJ, because I'm in no position to give a reasonable judgment.
<div class="quote_poster">rafy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">When I say stopper I mean someone who literally just clamp down own a star and force him to play his game. Force him to adjust. Change their shots, change their game. You want them to hate playing your team just because of you.</div> Damn dude, where have you been? Prince does that a lot to his defensive assignments. In the Finals of Lakers vs. Pistons, Prince was the difference maker on Kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You don't get named to the NBA All Defensive 2nd Team three straight seasons if you aren't getting it done on defense. It's one of the few awards that actually means something these days, because it's voted on by your peers. Eddie Jones was definitely locking down players even in Miami. In the Nets series, Eddie Jones made several defensive stops to allow Miami to advance. He was the difference maker defensively in that series. Rick Fox wasn't in the same league as Bowen for being dirty. But Fox was scrappy, and crossed the line quite a few times.</div> Wade has also been named to the defensive 2nd team, yet may of you were quick to downplay that award, and still question his defense. I don't understnad this double standard.
