<div class="quote_poster">Blur Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Deng is a good scorer, but most of his points come within the flow of the game. He is not as good as creating his own shot as Gordon is, nor can he put the ball on the floor as well as Gordon.</div> So wouldn't that make Deng all the more expendable? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Gasol can get the job done if there is more than five seconds left on the shot clock, enough time for him to get post position and back his man down a little, but with three seconds or less I don't think he can be considered a reliable option down the stretch. Gordon has improved steadily in each category each year he has been in the league. Who is to say it won't continue. His defense has improved by leaps and bounds as has his shot selection. I'm sure you as a Knicks fan know what Gordon brings to the table down the stretch of games better than anyone.</div> Gasol can consistently hit the outside jumper very well too. He doesn't need to back his man down all the time to score. Even if he won't be able to score with that amount of time on the clock, the Bulls have other options like Hinrich for instance. Either way a team can learn how to play under pressure. Gordon has improved every year he's been in the NBA, but that doesn't mean he'll be as good as Gasol. He is what he is: a one-dimensional scorer, which there are plenty of in this league. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He led them to the first round of the playoffs twice, and managed to win, one game? I can see if it was a respectable series, but it was a complete domination. I don't see Gasol as a transcending big men. He has hovered around the 20 point mark for several years, has not averaged double digit rebounds, and has had some injury problems. Like I said before we would be better off holding on to our young guys and waiting for a guy like O'Neal or Garnett to become available as opposed to going after Gasol.</div> As I said before those are elite, championship contending teams. Gasol can't lead a team because his team was swept by two championship contenders, one with an MVP winner and the other team was two games shy of a championship. And don't try to discredit Gasol; 20 PPG is always welcomed in this league, especially from a post scorer playing in the Western Conference. And while we?re on the topic let?s mention Gasol?s FG% which has only dipped below 50% once. I think it's doubtful O'Neal or KG are coming to the Bulls. Waiting around for too long could blow their chances.
<div class="quote_poster">MrJ Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So wouldn't that make Deng all the more expendable?</div> If you have seen my posts these past couple of days in the Bulls forum, you would know I have said that trading Deng is something I would consider if I was Paxson. However, at the same time I would not be too quick to jump at that trade, considering the other names that might be available this summer (O'Neal/Garnett). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Gasol can consistently hit the outside jumper very well too. He doesn't need to back his man down all the time to score. Even if he won't be able to score with that amount of time on the clock, the Bulls have other options like Hinrich for instance. Either way a team can learn how to play under pressure. Gordon has improved every year he's been in the NBA, but that doesn't mean he'll be as good as Gasol. He is what he is: a one-dimensional scorer, which there are plenty of in this league.</div> Gordon is more than a one dimensional scorer, any Bulls fan will tell you that. Although, his numbers don't show it when he is on the court the attention he draws from the defenders, and his movement off picks, etc. help setup other guys. Although, those things relate to scoring, it helps the team out in other areas, such as ball movement, etc. You say Gordon won't be as good as Gasol, but to be frank I already think he is better than him. You repeatable mentioned Kirk Hinrich thus far in this debate, but Hinrich has struggled with his shot all season long, and shoots 43% not to mention is not really that good at creating his own shot. I would not want him to be the guy I'm relying on to hit a big shot. Every team that has won a championship in recent memory has had a good big man/guard combo. Getting Gasol, while losing Grdon would keep us in the same position we are now/if not make us worse. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As I said before those are elite, championship contending teams. Gasol can't lead a team because his team was swept by two championship contenders, one with an MVP winner and the other team was two games shy of a championship. And don't try to discredit Gasol; 20 PPG is always welcomed in this league, especially from a post scorer playing in the Western Conference. And while we’re on the topic let’s mention Gasol’s FG% which has only dipped below 50% once. I think it's doubtful O'Neal or KG are coming to the Bulls. Waiting around for too long could blow their chances.</div> How is it doubtful either O'Neal or KG will come to the Bulls? The Bulls have the most young talent/draft position to offer than anyone in the league, and both O'Neal and Garnett are in and situations right now. There is nothing factual to lead us to believe either of them will not be on the block in the future. If Gasol is really this transcending big man that people make him out to be shouldn't he at least be able to muster one win with his team counting on him in the playoffs? I don't expect him to beat the Spurs or Suns, but at least make a series out of it. The 76ers managed to get a win against the Pistons the year they won the title, because Iverson is a star who a team can count on to carry it. Even if he does not have help, just having him on your team means you are in every game. You cannot say the same for Gasol. You can quote all the stats in the world, but you cannot measure a players will to win. This is something I question in Gasol. If we were to acquire him without giving up Gordon or Deng I'm all for it, but if it involves giving either up, I think we should wait and see what other options open up.
I can't agree with that statement on Gasol and leading his team through the Playoffs. No single man can lead a team through a series or contend through one. Jordan wasn't alone, Shaq wasn't alone, Magic wasn't alone, etc. The team surrounding Gasol has always been rather mediocre or just plain unsuccessful. They never seem to have chemistry on that club and that is what hampered the Grizzlies from moving on and going forward. Instead they seemed to just build on gaining too much depth, which ultimately killed them to this date. However I do agree that the Bulls have a better chance then anyone else in gaining a top big man. They have plenty to offer in all catagories to struggling teams with top guys like the Wolves and Pacers. While both teams are not out of their respected Conference playoff picture they both have no sense of where to go from here on out. That gives us a shining opportunity to make a move given the right expenses. We have many draft picks, solid youth and plenty of cash to offer. I just don't think the Bulls management is in interest to blow money and take a chance of ruining the current way the franchise is rolling. As I mentioned I give a trade for a big man or any trade at all before the deadline a 65% chance of not happening. They just don't seem to be interested enough.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Blur:</div><div class="quote_post"> If you have seen my posts these past couple of days in the Bulls forum, you would know I have said that trading Deng is something I would consider if I was Paxson. However, at the same time I would not be too quick to jump at that trade, considering the other names that might be available this summer (O'Neal/Garnett).</div> Fair enough, you should be willing to give up Deng in a heartbeat for Gasol. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Gordon is more than a one dimensional scorer, any Bulls fan will tell you that. Although, his numbers don't show it when he is on the court the attention he draws from the defenders, and his movement off picks, etc. help setup other guys. Although, those things relate to scoring, it helps the team out in other areas, such as ball movement, etc. You say Gordon won't be as good as Gasol, but to be frank I already think he is better than him. You repeatable mentioned Kirk Hinrich thus far in this debate, but Hinrich has struggled with his shot all season long, and shoots 43% not to mention is not really that good at creating his own shot. I would not want him to be the guy I'm relying on to hit a big shot. Every team that has won a championship in recent memory has had a good big man/guard combo. Getting Gasol, while losing Grdon would keep us in the same position we are now/if not make us worse.</div> As I said, the only thing Gordon does is score. He’s not an efficient passer (as evident in his A/T ratio), he’s not a good rebounder, and despite his improvement, he’s still a subpar defender. If you think Gordon’s presence helps open up things for the other guys on offense, then Gasol will make things even better. The ball movement for the Bulls only runs around the perimeter. However, with Gasol the ball movement can go from inside-out which opens up things on the perimeter. In fact, with such a dangerous low post threat, the Bulls can force the opposition into the penalty earlier and attempt more free throws. And since Gasol can shoot, it can be a dangerous weapon to keep the opponent’s best shot blocker out the paint, encouraging more dribble penetration from the guards. How is Kirk Hinrich struggling with his shot if 43.6% is a career high for him in field goal percentage? He’s also shooting a career high 40% from downtown. If anything, this career year for him in terms of shooting. Also, Kirk Hinrich can create his own shot, what point guard can’t create a shot for himself? If he can’t create his own shot that means you really need Gasol’s presence to create space for him. The Bulls have enough shooters: Nocioni and Hinrich can knock down the outside with very good consistency, Deng is solid in the midrange area, and Sefolosha is a decent shooter. Gordon is not the Bulls’ only threat from the outside. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How is it doubtful either O'Neal or KG will come to the Bulls? The Bulls have the most young talent/draft position to offer than anyone in the league, and both O'Neal and Garnett are in and situations right now. There is nothing factual to lead us to believe either of them will not be on the block in the future.</div> Every team is rumored to be after certain players. The Bulls have nice young talent, but how do they have a good “draft position” to offer them? The Bulls have a switch option with the Knicks which will realistically range from 10-16. The Celtics can package an attractive offer, the 76ers have young players and many draft picks, Golden State is in the mix, Atlanta has many young players to offer, and even New York has some nice players to offer and probably some expiring contracts, since someone comes off the books every year. The fact of the matter is, while the Bulls have a shot, many other teams are interested too and can put up equally competitive offers. I would take what I can get, while it’s there – at least Gasol came out and requested, so now the league (similarly to the Iverson situation) can give Memphis a mediocre package and come away as a winner. I do think the Pacers will be reluctant to trade Jermaine O’Neal to a division rival, especially when the Bulls have a similar record. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Gasol is really this transcending big man that people make him out to be shouldn't he at least be able to muster one win with his team counting on him in the playoffs? I don't expect him to beat the Spurs or Suns, but at least make a series out of it. The 76ers managed to get a win against the Pistons the year they won the title, because Iverson is a star who a team can count on to carry it. Even if he does not have help, just having him on your team means you are in every game. You cannot say the same for Gasol. You can quote all the stats in the world, but you cannot measure a players will to win. This is something I question in Gasol.</div> M-Two explained it well, so I’ll be brief: the Grizzlies were a rebuilding team expected not to even make the playoffs and lost to a superior opponent. It’s unreasonable to expect Gasol to lead a mediocre Grizzlies team far against an MVP-led team and a Finals-bound team. In fact, the Grizzlies should have been playing the Nuggets since they had a better record than the Clippers and that’s exactly why the rule was made! And the year Detroit won the title they never faced Philly. They played Milwaukee, New Jersey, Indiana, and then the Lakers. And the 2005 Suns and 2006 Mavericks are more superior teams than the 2004 Pistons. Either way, you can’t penalize him for not being able to lead his team past these championship contenders. Even so, the fact still remains Gasol – an all-star in a more challenging conference – is indisputably a better leader than Ben Gordon. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If we were to acquire him without giving up Gordon or Deng I'm all for it, but if it involves giving either up, I think we should wait and see what other options open up.</div> Even if you’re not willing to give up Gordon, then you HAVE to give up Deng. How is it feasible to acquire Gasol without at least giving up Deng or Gordon?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How is Kirk Hinrich struggling with his shot if 43.6% is a career high for him in field goal percentage? He’s also shooting a career high 40% from downtown. If anything, this career year for him in terms of shooting. Also, Kirk Hinrich can create his own shot, what point guard can’t create a shot for himself? If he can’t create his own shot that means you really need Gasol’s presence to create space for him.</div> Also, Kirk is in his early years still. Take a look at how long it took Steve Nash to break out. Kirk has been relatively consistant in my opinion and is unselfish. The thing to remember is that anything can happen given the right circumstances and opportunities he could be one of the best players in the league over time. People look down on that potential.
<div class="quote_poster">MrJ Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">As I said, the only thing Gordon does is score. He?s not an efficient passer (as evident in his A/T ratio), he?s not a good rebounder, and despite his improvement, he?s still a subpar defender. If you think Gordon?s presence helps open up things for the other guys on offense, then Gasol will make things even better. The ball movement for the Bulls only runs around the perimeter. However, with Gasol the ball movement can go from inside-out which opens up things on the perimeter. In fact, with such a dangerous low post threat, the Bulls can force the opposition into the penalty earlier and attempt more free throws. And since Gasol can shoot, it can be a dangerous weapon to keep the opponent?s best shot blocker out the paint, encouraging more dribble penetration from the guards. How is Kirk Hinrich struggling with his shot if 43.6% is a career high for him in field goal percentage? He?s also shooting a career high 40% from downtown. If anything, this career year for him in terms of shooting. Also, Kirk Hinrich can create his own shot, what point guard can?t create a shot for himself? If he can?t create his own shot that means you really need Gasol?s presence to create space for him. The Bulls have enough shooters: Nocioni and Hinrich can knock down the outside with very good consistency, Deng is solid in the midrange area, and Sefolosha is a decent shooter. Gordon is not the Bulls? only threat from the outside.</div> Its really something where you have to watch the Bulls games to understand whats going on with Hinrich. 43% is a career high for him, but basing it off his shooting percentages in past years, that really is not saying much. He has been incredible inconsistent with his shot. However, when he has good games his numbers are great, thus his stats don't suffer. Like I stated earlier I don't see Gasol as a transcending big man, that can get we can build around, with him as our center piece. Thus I don't see much to be gained in mortgaging our future for him. He is due over 15 million a season over the next several years, yet has not proven that he can carry a franchise on his back, like true superstars have. He got the Grizzlies too the playoffs with a great ten man rotation around him, and a hall of fame coach. However, he has not been able to do much since then despite not having help around them KG, AI, etc. all were able for several years to hold their team around the .500 mark. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Every team is rumored to be after certain players. The Bulls have nice young talent, but how do they have a good ?draft position? to offer them? The Bulls have a switch option with the Knicks which will realistically range from 10-16. The Celtics can package an attractive offer, the 76ers have young players and many draft picks, Golden State is in the mix, Atlanta has many young players to offer, and even New York has some nice players to offer and probably some expiring contracts, since someone comes off the books every year. The fact of the matter is, while the Bulls have a shot, many other teams are interested too and can put up equally competitive offers. I would take what I can get, while it?s there ? at least Gasol came out and requested, so now the league (similarly to the Iverson situation) can give Memphis a mediocre package and come away as a winner. I do think the Pacers will be reluctant to trade Jermaine O?Neal to a division rival, especially when the Bulls have a similar record. </div> Exactly, the Grizzlies have no leverage to demand Deng or Gordon in return in a trade. So why give them up for him? The Bulls can still offer a better package then most teams can without giving up either of those players considering the situation they are in. While the Celtics also have young players, they have shown in the past that they as well are not willing to trade their future. They will also try and low ball the Grizzlies, even more so than the Bulls. The Knicks have some decent young players, but none with "superstar" potential imo, if they acquired Gasol it certainly would help them, but considering their draft status for the next few years, and the players they already have on the roster I don't see them being able to put together a better deal than a Chicago team, if it came down to that. As far as O'Neal goes, he is around 28 years old now, if the Pacers are going into rebuilding mode with young talent, by the time they reach their prime O'Neal will likely be declining, so trading him within the division isn't that big of a deal. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">M-Two explained it well, so I?ll be brief: the Grizzlies were a rebuilding team expected not to even make the playoffs and lost to a superior opponent. It?s unreasonable to expect Gasol to lead a mediocre Grizzlies team far against an MVP-led team and a Finals-bound team. In fact, the Grizzlies should have been playing the Nuggets since they had a better record than the Clippers and that?s exactly why the rule was made! And the year Detroit won the title they never faced Philly. They played Milwaukee, New Jersey, Indiana, and then the Lakers. And the 2005 Suns and 2006 Mavericks are more superior teams than the 2004 Pistons. Either way, you can?t penalize him for not being able to lead his team past these championship contenders. Even so, the fact still remains Gasol ? an all-star in a more challenging conference ? is indisputably a better leader than Ben Gordon. </div> Like I stated before, I did not expect him to beat these teams. As a leader I expect him to be able to carry a team to at least a win during a series. The Griz had a good ten man roster, veteran squad, when they made the playoffs with a hall of fame coach. They had a 50+ win season, everyone expected them to at least come out and have a respectable showing. For reference look at Swish's article from back in the day, and VD's reaction when Swish predicted a sweep. Although, one player can't win a series alone, they can at least get their team a win if they really are these big time stars. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if you?re not willing to give up Gordon, then you HAVE to give up Deng. How is it feasible to acquire Gasol without at least giving up Deng or Gordon?</div> The Griz have no leverage like stated before. Who would ever have expected AI to be traded for what he was? I have repeatable stated I would consider giving up Deng, but you have to think about the other guys that might be available if a combination of Deng, Tyrus, and the Knicks pick can get you KG or O'Neal that deal is far better than trading for Gasol. In conclusion just to wrap up my thoughts so no one misquotes/misunderstands me. I would not give up Gordon for Gasol. Deng for Gasol is an acceptable deal. However, I might not do that considering other options we might have next summer. I do not consider Gasol a franchise player. My stance on that is not going to change no matter how many paragraphs we type back and fourth so I'm just going to leave it at that.
<div class="quote_poster">MrJ Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'll respond to this later, I'm too tired to repost another one of these.</div> I feel the same way trust me...
pick one: Hinrich + Gasol + Gordon + Wallace = the East crown. Hinrich + Gasol + Deng + Wallace = the East crown.
