<div class="quote_poster">iLL PiLL Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think the best way to avoid these games is just not to watch it. I didn't watch the game and honestly, I'm not pissed. Maybe because i didn't waste my time watching them lose? But yeah...i'm sniffing out another losing season where we don't make it. If J-Rich makes it back we'll probably just go on one of those runs like we always do at the end of the season. Win useless games when its practically over</div> You're probably right, I couldn't watch the game from about half way through the 3rd Q to the end because FSN froze on one picture for a long time. I'm not very pissed, just disappointed at another horrible loss.
Dustgusting and disappointing? Yes. But I still believe this team is only one solid, true big man and another year or two of experience away from being a decent playoff team. It's not happening this year, but don't forget the Warriors are one of the youngest teams n the NBA. A lot of the things that are plaguing them right now -- turnovers, inability to maintain focus, lack of killer instinct in putting teams away who you have on the ropes, improper positioning on the floor -- are side effects of inexperience. Some of that's going to improve over time. I'm not saying they still don't have a lot of issues because they do, but if we want to go with youth then patience is required.
The thing about Ike is, from what I've seen... Powell is just as a good a prospect. He doesn't have the offensive package of Ike, but he is bigger and a better defender IMO. I really like Powell's potential.
<div class="quote_poster">iLL PiLL Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think the best way to avoid these games is just not to watch it. I didn't watch the game and honestly, I'm not pissed. Maybe because i didn't waste my time watching them lose? But yeah...i'm sniffing out another losing season where we don't make it. If J-Rich makes it back we'll probably just go on one of those runs like we always do at the end of the season. Win useless games when its practically over</div> You have a point. It's just at this critical juncture, I want to see what we have and now the realization has hit home that we don't have much. Earlier I had classes, so couldn't always watch the games. The other thing is so many analysts thought Golden State had the worse deal than Indy while the GSW fans thought otherwise. Now, we know that those mofo analysts were right. The other thing that bugs me is what Baron said and he just hasn't gone on the court to do it. First, he said that some guys weren't going all out, but if you look at him, he's one of the guys who haven't been going all out. He never was a big practice guy, but I don't think he's been busting his butt during practice either. Okay, I can cut him some slack because of family problems, but that guy has a lot of personal business to attend to, too. I don't think he's always been there in the games this season. I just cannot trust that guy anymore. That said, it's still Baron's team unless we blow it up, so I guess we have to make do with it. The jury is still out on SJax I think. I think when JRich comes back, it will make clearer on the identity of this team and who we will keep and who we will let go during the off-season. Of course, the kicker could be what happens if anything before the trading deadline. It is possible that another deal will be made, as predicted after the big trade, to shake things up.
<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The thing about Ike is, from what I've seen... Powell is just as a good a prospect. He doesn't have the offensive package of Ike, but he is bigger and a better defender IMO. I really like Powell's potential.</div> I hope you're right AO about Powell. So far, Powell and Ike has been a wash. Maybe Powell has gotten more minutes and performed better than Ike. I heard John Hollinger a few nights ago talk about Ike. He's one of the analysts who thought Indy had the better deal despite it being a great deal for Golden State financially. Ike was the guy he said that made the difference. He's predicting a possible 20-10 performer, but you couldn't see that while he was with the Warriors. The guy looks at a lot of stats, so he may not know what he's talking about either in this regard.
An Article on Ike Diogu by John Hollinger This is what he was talking about a couple nights ago. "Stats innovator working to improve numbers game Janny Hu Sunday, February 4, 2007 Ike Diogu (right) ranked highest of the eight players in ... Three new Pacers are (from left) Troy Murphy, Mike Dunlea... For all the numbers-crunching and book-writing that ESPN's John Hollinger has done over the past decade, nothing riled up Golden State fans quite like these two sentences about last month's trade with Indiana: "Ten years from now I have a feeling we'll be looking back on this deal as the Ike Diogu trade," Hollinger wrote on ESPN.com. "And if you're a Warriors fan, you probably won't be looking back fondly." Hollinger is the basketball stat guru who invented the player efficiency rating -- or PER -- to gauge a player's net contributions. The rating essentially sums up positive contributions like points, assists and steals, subtracts negatives like turnovers and fouls, and equalizes the numbers on a per-minute basis. It also factors in the pace at which teams play, so every Sun doesn't benefit too much from Phoenix's fast-breaking style. Of the eight players involved in the Warriors-Pacers trade, Diogu had the highest PER. Which, among other things, means the formula isn't foolproof. We caught up with Hollinger in Atlanta and asked him about his philosophy regarding statistics in basketball and the impossibility of creating an all-inclusive rating system. "It's a very different game from, say, baseball, where everything's very compartmentalized," Hollinger said. "You can tell with each at-bat, each inning, there's such a structure to everything that the stats that flow from that are kind of logical and easy. "In the NBA, it's a little harder sometimes. Everything is in the flow, it's messy sometimes, and sometimes it's even hard to describe something. Just simple things like 'Was that an assist? Was that really a steal?' Things like that." Hollinger says the hardest part of the game to quantify is defense, and that's where Diogu's odd rating comes into play. While the ex-Warrior has the ability to score one-on-one in the post, he gives up just as many points on the other end. "His numbers are great, but his defense, I think, visibly needs some work," Hollinger said. "So that's the one area where we don't have any good numbers yet. Defense is still this huge black box you can't see inside of very well with numbers. That's the Holy Grail for me, figuring out defense." The Lenovo stat, which looks at the point differential when players are in and out of a game, and Web sites like 82games.com attempt to break down and quantity defense. The growing popularity of plus-minus statistics has helped teams track different lineups, but still doesn't come without problems. "So much of that is dependent on who you play with and who replaces you when you go out," Hollinger said. "So you can make comparisons a lot of times between two guys on the same team sometimes, but not necessarily around the league, which I think is really the thing that people want to be able to do. "If you're about to sign a free agent or about to make a trade, you don't want to know if he's a better defender than his teammate, you want to know if he's good. If he'll be a good defender here. That's where it kind of breaks down." In Diogu's case, there's also the issue of playing time. Hollinger's formula attempts to project numbers to a 48-minute game, even if a player is simply coming in for a few minutes every night. But Hollinger said the numbers he's devised have proven out. "I've been amazed at how reliable it is, actually," he said. "I think the only time it's (wrong) is when you have a guy that's just horribly out of shape. Like Robert Traylor, for example. You can't extrapolate to 48 minutes for him. "If anything, I've found the opposite conclusion, actually. That guys tend to play better when minutes come in longer chunks." The banner season for that theory was 2003-04, when Zach Randolph was named the league's most improved player after his production essentially doubled once he became a full-time starter. The same big-minutes, big-numbers trajectory also held for Michael Redd, Corey Maggette and Andrei Kirilenko. As for what place statistics have in basketball, especially after baseball's sabermetrics revolution and the success of Billy Beane's "Moneyball'' theories, Hollinger says that while some teams have been more receptive than others, every organization seems to have at least one person devoted to numbers-crunching. He jokes that people seem more interested in talking to him now than five years ago. He points to the ascension of MIT-educated stats-guru Daryl Morey in the Rockets' front office as a sign that more attention is being paid to the numbers game. Special stats ESPN.com's John Hollinger computes the "player efficiency rating" (PER). It is based on statistics, so dogged defense isn't reflected unless it results in a lot of steals. It adjusts stats per minute and per pace -- points scored for a fast-paced team don't mean as much as for a slow-paced team. The league's average PER is 15.0. The trade PERs for the Warriors-Pacers deal. To Pacers Ike Diogu.............. 16.17 Troy Murphy............ 15.15 Mike Dunleavy.......... 14.17 Keith McLeod........... 12.44 To Warriors Al Harrington.......... 14.83 Stephen Jackson........ 13.11 Sarunas Jasikevicius... 12.59 Josh Powell... 5.17 The best NBA's top PERs Dwyane Wade, Miami......... 29.12 Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas...... 28.36 Kevin Garnett, Minnesota... 25.82 (Baron Davis is the top Warrior, in 20th place, at 20.37) Shooting stats Hollinger also computes a "true shooting percentage" (TS%). The formula is (total points x 50)/(FGA + (FTA x 0.44).It takes into account free throws and the value of three-pointers. The best NBA's top TS% Steve Nash, Phoenix...... 66.3 A. Stoudemire, Phoenix... 65.9 David Lee, Knicks........ 65.0 (Andris Biedrins is the top Warrior, in sixth place, at 62.2) Source: ESPN.com, stats through Thursday The meeting The Warriors and Pacers play for the first time since the trade on Monday at 4 p.m. in Indianapolis. Since getting their new players in uniform, the Warriors are 3-5 while the Pacers are 6-2." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...SPG74NUMTA1.DTL
IMO the team should still build and play around Ellis and Biedrins along with JRich and/or Baron Davis (or maybe try to trade them for a superstar?). The team has gotten away from playing that way, and when they should be giving more and more touches to Biedrins, Al Harrington is here to jack up 20 shots, which is not bad if he is on fire, but if he is playing like a blackhole despite putting up bricks and forcing bad shots then there is a problem (I mean he could be taking shots away from Ellis along with other efficient scorers). Talent on offense is not a problem with this team, nor was it before the trade. But suddenly the team before the trade and the team now have different identities. Before it was Baron/Ellis/AB with some great role play from Pietrus and Dunleavy with some good production from Barnes and Azubuike. Now it seems that it is playing like it did last season with the conflicts Baron gave to the team times two with Al being almost a SF/PF tweener version of Baron Davis with less substance. Either it is great when it's on or horrible when it's off. After making some strides earlier in the season with finding a type of identity and core, the team has kind of taken steps backwards not because of the talent of the players they received but how they are playing. OK so the Warriors are 1-1 in February. Let's see them rebound now, hopefully.
The good news about losing to the Bobcats is that they have beaten the Lakers twice and several other good western conference teams, so maybe all is not lost...
<div class="quote_poster">Warriorfansnc93 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The good news about losing to the Bobcats is that they have beaten the Lakers twice and several other good western conference teams, so maybe all is not lost...</div> Yeah, they're not out of it yet, but they need to win the next two now. I think they will split the next two though. The problem is that either Barnes or Pietrus needs to step up like they were doing in the beginning of the season.
<div class="quote_poster">Gohn Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, they're not out of it yet, but they need to win the next two now. I think they will split the next two though. The problem is that either Barnes or Pietrus needs to step up like they were doing in the beginning of the season.</div> Yeah, Pietrus used to hit that corner 3 automatically, now he cant seem to hit jack! Monta has been ice cold from 3 also. If these guys start hitting again after the all star break, its on... And maybe now we think we are so good, that we play down to our competition. Hopefully we come out with guns blazing in Indiana and play up to par in Minnesota since they are in our way...
<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I hope you're right AO about Powell. So far, Powell and Ike has been a wash. Maybe Powell has gotten more minutes and performed better than Ike. I heard John Hollinger a few nights ago talk about Ike. He's one of the analysts who thought Indy had the better deal despite it being a great deal for Golden State financially. Ike was the guy he said that made the difference. He's predicting a possible 20-10 performer, but you couldn't see that while he was with the Warriors. The guy looks at a lot of stats, so he may not know what he's talking about either in this regard.</div> Last year Ike had 6 games of 30+ min....in those he averaged 19.5 pt,9.5 reb. That does not include the game where he dropped 27 on Detroit as that was less than 30 min. In a LOT of ganes this year,Ike was on pace for at least 20-10 3 blocks...but got just a dozen minutes. On my planet if a guy gets All-Star production going...I'd tend to let him play A wash? Powell has I think 1 10 pt game in his pro career. He looks like a usable backup who can get better.
I think he meant so far since the trade. They've both done some nice things in limited minutes. But I'm not ready to proclaim Ike as an all-star just yet.
<div class="quote_poster">Clif25 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">IMO the team should still build and play around Ellis and Biedrins along with JRich and/or Baron Davis (or maybe try to trade them for a superstar?). The team has gotten away from playing that way, and when they should be giving more and more touches to Biedrins, Al Harrington is here to jack up 20 shots, which is not bad if he is on fire, but if he is playing like a blackhole despite putting up bricks and forcing bad shots then there is a problem (I mean he could be taking shots away from Ellis along with other efficient scorers). Talent on offense is not a problem with this team, nor was it before the trade. But suddenly the team before the trade and the team now have different identities. Before it was Baron/Ellis/AB with some great role play from Pietrus and Dunleavy with some good production from Barnes and Azubuike. Now it seems that it is playing like it did last season with the conflicts Baron gave to the team times two with Al being almost a SF/PF tweener version of Baron Davis with less substance. Either it is great when it's on or horrible when it's off. After making some strides earlier in the season with finding a type of identity and core, the team has kind of taken steps backwards not because of the talent of the players they received but how they are playing. OK so the Warriors are 1-1 in February. Let's see them rebound now, hopefully.</div> We're not at the point of being able to depend on Monta and AB, so would hold off. I can live with Baron if he would get the other players involved more, especially AB, instead of trying to take it upon himself and chuck 3s. Baron still thinks he's a shooter when he's not. I think JRich coming back will help in the shooting department, but he doesn't have the good handles nor good defense. I hope he's improved in the free throw department. As for the front line, my face just gets scrunched up when having to think about it. I know AL's a better SF, but have no idea what to do at PF. Then we need a backup for AB and it would be nice to have a backup PG besides Monta since he's playing so much SG and combo sometimes with Baron.
<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think he meant so far since the trade. They've both done some nice things in limited minutes. But I'm not ready to proclaim Ike as an all-star just yet.</div> Yeah, I think some of the Ike fans get carried away. Ike doesn't have a lot of upside so is pretty much a WYSIWYG type player. I was open minded about and liked Ike, but thought he was too short and too limited for our needs under Nelson. He seems to be doing better cause he's playing with JO. Without him, I'm sure other teams would be blocking his shots more. BTW if we win tomorrow night against Indy (they could be hung over from too much Super Bowl partying), and Minnesota loses on the road to Houston, we can go past the T-Wolves for the 9th spot and be only 1.5 games behind 8th spot Clippers. That's hard to believe considering we sucked so much on our road trip so far.
I just wish we would stick with the plan for an entire game... they always ...ok not always.... but recently seem to come out ...moving the ball.... getting the ball in the paint....getting AB involved.... good team effort and everyone moving cutting and passing...and most importantly baron is focused on getting everyone involved... something happens when the next wave of guys enter the game ... ball movement deteriorates.... we find MP and barnes standing around spotting up not cutting.... and it just gets ugly.... one on one ball ...until baron starts trying to take it all upon himself... i would just like to see a consistent plan... getting the ball to AB..... getting Powell involved when he is in the game.... teh guards crashing ...a total team effort on the boards and .... and effort to get to the rim.
<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think he meant so far since the trade. They've both done some nice things in limited minutes. But I'm not ready to proclaim Ike as an all-star just yet.</div> Nobody is an All Star until they do it. I just don't see Powell able to have 20 pt games when defenses pay him a little attention. Yeah,to the extent that anyone getting 7 min and 2 FGA has minor impact,It's a wash in that regard. You could about say Tyrus Thomas and Matt Barnes are a wash....except in fact Barnes has made a lot more impact.
