Okay, now I'm calm

So I know basically the bottom teams in the Western Conference can go up or down and the Warriors could be 8th seed based on timing or schedule or whatnot.

But I'm still in the mindset that the possibility of 8th seed is still underachieving. Because even if we do make the playoffs, we will get owned like we have no business being there. So, it'd be playoffs in name only, but not a real playoff type team. That is unless the franchise gets better in their ability to add to their team's depth and talent and preserve it for many seasons to come. That requires vision and decision-making ability. And that is unknown or unproven at this point. So it's faith based. And there's not much faith on my perspective of things.

still, how can we avoid going to www.nba.com/warriors and avoid the promos? I don't like typing the url where you have to remember the html file link and everything.

 

Good points custodian...but I think if this team makes the playoffs, they will find their identity. Right now I feel like this team is missing that identity. We're basically a team that hasn't made it into the playoffs for what 12 seasons? If they make it, this can be a stepping stone for the team. They could be motivated and want to go back next season and so on. Like they say it can make or break the team and I feel that if they make it they will be motivated

 

Hey everybody. Custodian, you probably will remember me from the realgm boards, but I wanted to contribute to this train of thought.

I agree that we aren't going anywhere this season, maybe even next season, but to ignore the process of finding players that do fit into a system would be to generalize the team as one identity, a bad one. While I will admit our collection of players is a melting pot of scorers and more scorers, we do have some pieces that we didn't have last year.

Ellis and Biedrins were extremely hyped over the off-season but no one knew anything about their true skills, just inklings of potentiality. Ellis can fit into a point guard and has shown some growth in that department. Biedrins's consistency, save a few weeks and a game here or there, is amazing considering his age. Those two pieces are building blocks, and they are two building blocks that we previously occupied by Fisher and Foyle. We need shooters. We need post presence on the defensive end. We need defenders period. In truth, what we really need are players that do more than one thing well. Not saying able to do more than one thing without screwing up (Barnes and Pietrus don't even manage that), but instead players that bring above average skills in multiple facets of the game.

Taking that into account, there is an element that it seems you are not taking into account when discussing a team like the warriors, and that is chemistry and experience. Experience in winning more specifically. Baron is the only one on our team that has been past the first round I believe, and Harrington barely played on his pacer teams when he was in the playoffs. However, just the simple lift of making the playoffs, experiencing sucess at this level, would be significant to me even if they played poorly once they reached the playoffs themselves. Chemistry seems to be significant when we are talking about a team that doesn't have any ball movement, I would think that Nellie would be looking for more of it, and that the players aren't thinking together which forces mistakes and bad shots. I would think that just having a consistent team would change that, I'm positive that was Mullin's whole perspective when not making moves and he was definately wrong many times in that way, but it does have reason behind it. You'd think at least.

I am not saying that these are the types of players that will gain significantly from experience, or have the potential to even improve significantly at all (focusing on the frontline starters and Jackson rather than the younger Ellis/Biedrins crowd). But I am saying that there are changes that need to be made to get the team to blend together. For example, is it not the case that teams shooting over 50% from the three point range consistently would indicate that zone defense is something that won't work? I mean, yeah, you can improve on it, but it seems like that would be something to do in the off-season, just scrap it, let the big guys roam free, cause most of the time they do anyway, and stick to your man.

Seems pretty simple to me. I really would like to know how Nellie pulled this off in Dallas in the 2000-2002 era. Maybe they just didn't have the suck on their side like we do.

Edit: whew long post. That won't be a consistent thing from me.

 

<div class="quote_poster">iLL PiLL Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Good points custodian...but I think if this team makes the playoffs, they will find their identity. Right now I feel like this team is missing that identity. We're basically a team that hasn't made it into the playoffs for what 12 seasons? If they make it, this can be a stepping stone for the team. They could be motivated and want to go back next season and so on. Like they say it can make or break the team and I feel that if they make it they will be motivated</div>

I think we'll have an identity once we find a group that can consistently produce every single night on both ends of the floor. And we can find an identity once we stop ignoring our biggest flaws and carry on like it won't hurt us if we ignore it. We've got a lot of young players that could improve, the question is how much? I would like to see Biedrins stronger. I would like to see Ellis more of a true floor general. Both can score efficiently and both are good quick, defensive players. Jrich has qualities you'd like to see in a big man player (wingspan, hands, jumping ability, strength), but unfortunately he never grew beyond 6'4" without shoes.

Baron is a great, smart playmaker, but outside of that, I haven't seen a strong go-to player or effient scoring threat when he decides to take matters into his own hands. The injuries are to be expected and I dislike that about him almost as much as when he tries to take three pointers he can't make, thinking it will get us back into the game. Not if he keeps shooting at 29% he won't. He's like Derek Fisher sometimes. Pass the ball! Run something. Yet he goes back to his blackholish ways when he was doing so great as a distributor.

I think this club will take more than motivation. It needs real individuals with talent that can play together as a team on both ends of the floor, at home, and on the road. We need a mix of young and old and none of these guys who aren't ready to play ball now. Guys like Pietrus and Barnes aren't ready to take on a major role off the bench. We've got such a weak bench...

 

<div class="quote_poster">StateofFlux Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hey everybody. Custodian, you probably will remember me from the realgm boards, but I wanted to contribute to this train of thought.
</div>

Hey, what's up man. I remember.

<div class="quote_poster">StateofFlux Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
I agree that we aren't going anywhere this season, maybe even next season, but to ignore the process of finding players that do fit into a system would be to generalize the team as one identity, a bad one. While I will admit our collection of players is a melting pot of scorers and more scorers, we do have some pieces that we didn't have last year.

Ellis and Biedrins were extremely hyped over the off-season but no one knew anything about their true skills, just inklings of potentiality. Ellis can fit into a point guard and has shown some growth in that department. Biedrins's consistency, save a few weeks and a game here or there, is amazing considering his age. Those two pieces are building blocks, and they are two building blocks that we previously occupied by Fisher and Foyle. We need shooters. We need post presence on the defensive end. We need defenders period. In truth, what we really need are players that do more than one thing well. Not saying able to do more than one thing without screwing up (Barnes and Pietrus don't even manage that), but instead players that bring above average skills in multiple facets of the game.

Taking that into account, there is an element that it seems you are not taking into account when discussing a team like the warriors, and that is chemistry and experience. Experience in winning more specifically. Baron is the only one on our team that has been past the first round I believe, and Harrington barely played on his pacer teams when he was in the playoffs. However, just the simple lift of making the playoffs, experiencing sucess at this level, would be significant to me even if they played poorly once they reached the playoffs themselves. Chemistry seems to be significant when we are talking about a team that doesn't have any ball movement, I would think that Nellie would be looking for more of it, and that the players aren't thinking together which forces mistakes and bad shots. I would think that just having a consistent team would change that, I'm positive that was Mullin's whole perspective when not making moves and he was definately wrong many times in that way, but it does have reason behind it. You'd think at least.

I am not saying that these are the types of players that will gain significantly from experience, or have the potential to even improve significantly at all (focusing on the frontline starters and Jackson rather than the younger Ellis/Biedrins crowd). But I am saying that there are changes that need to be made to get the team to blend together. For example, is it not the case that teams shooting over 50% from the three point range consistently would indicate that zone defense is something that won't work? I mean, yeah, you can improve on it, but it seems like that would be something to do in the off-season, just scrap it, let the big guys roam free, cause most of the time they do anyway, and stick to your man.

Seems pretty simple to me. I really would like to know how Nellie pulled this off in Dallas in the 2000-2002 era. Maybe they just didn't have the suck on their side like we do.

Edit: whew long post. That won't be a consistent thing from me.</div>

Dude post away. I agree with some of your points. We have a young team with two very interesting prospects (possibly three with POB if we get a good look at him and he produces at an nba starting level) that need a lot of growing to do to be consistent and to develop into a larger role. It could happen that Mullin finds the pieces somehow (but that is easier said than done). To me there's nothing in the warriors history from the past decade that has me believing that this could be achieved anytime soon even with Nelson pulling for any point forward prospects. Even if Nelson had more control, how far will small ball take us along in the long run? Dallas was a rare case in that Mark Cuban was willing to sacrifice offense for defense and go big. Will Nelson ever make that sacrifice or is it the plan to go small and then go big when the right opportunity presents itself? I'm not sure we ever did that with the way we drafted big players after the Chris Webber trade. We've drafted the worst from Todd Fuller to Joe Smith. Unbelievable. Before all that we had Chris Washburn of all poorest picks.

I guess if these players should ever blend together, they would need more efficient players and a good bench. What they have isn't working. They don't have very strong ballhandlers that can pass without turning it over. They don't have very strong shooters which is evident at the foul line or when trying to find another shot outside of taking threes... Things like shooting off the dribble, finishing layups, and just making the easy play happen are such difficult things for these guys to do. Nobody really makes each other better to because it's just guards and guards.

That's another thing this team would have to have. They need some size. Even if it's primary defensive role player, they need size. They can't go in with a shooting guard and make him try to emulate a power forward. It just won't work if the other team just waltzes down the middle and goes right in.

Now, I'm guessing neither Mully nor Nelly would let this stick, but I don't know about Nelson sometimes... Mully tries to undo his mess with Foyle and other signings with big player picks. But he's got to do more in support of the current team while the young unknowns are developing.

We'll never know if we could have had more momentum this year if salary wasn't tied up in worthless players. We'll never know. And if we should panic and overpay Biedrins and Ellis because we're afraid of losing them, that will just be more mistakes IMO if the guys who are watching them closely are overrating them just as much as the fans do. If nobody is a clearcut superstar, we need to budget in players like the Pistons. Guys who are not superstars by themselves, but are great as a team because they have multiple skills and complimentary skills that stand out in the entire league. Rip has the ability to find an open shot using screens and milking the midrange shot Same with Billups and he can post up. Both can shoot free throws. Both play defense. Both pass. They got two great defensive players plus a glue guy at small forward. I mean this crap I wish we had if we can't have two superstars like the Lakers or one like the Pistons. But I understand it's a crapshoot because it has to start with somebody good and we haven't had that type of player that does a lot of things well on both ends of the floor and makes the team a lot better.

I do believe chemistry is essential and I believe for that to work we need guys who are experienced, mentally and physically ready for the nba and that are multi-talented to compete at the nba level. But there's lies the dilemma in that we fail to find good free agents, we fail to make good trades in the offseason, and we are picking draft picks that may not be ready or well coached, but they have a lot of upside. I still profess that we can do more with smart guys who are ready now and can do a lot of things and can compete physically in some way (strength, quickness, uncanny off balance shot ability, or a combo of the bunch).

And you're right Mullin didn't do a good job evaluating things before committing 6-7 years of guaranteed money up front when the 2003 to 2004 transition left us without a strong middle (a playoff must have) and an aging defensive power forward that was on his way out anyway. Losing Dampier (who was useless after getting paid anyway) and adding Murphy back into the lineup was a detriment to our defense considering we also had 2003's most major defensive liability in Dunleavy to worry about.


I hope for the future, but as long as the same clowns are in charge (starting with Cohan), I've got no faith. And I'm a fan, but I can't agree with the ownership of this club. It's like loving your country, but hating the government's decision-making and judgement. Two separate things.

I think winning will cure the negativity, but show me a winning team first. We can talk about it all day, but unless it happens, I don't believe we can build much momentum off of it to win a ring or go deep into the playoffs for once.

 

Just my 2 cents. I'll be happy with 8th seed and first round and out. It's a GREAT experience for a young team on the rise. OTOH, it wouldn't be that great as CR2 pointed out if we were like the Clippers from last season and this season.

I'm still betting on rebuilding for next year with Mullin, Higgings and Nelson.

 

I definately agree with the main components of your point CR2. That's why I'm even considering Belinelli as a pick for us because he's such a pure shooter and seems to have a strong effort on defense, whether that translates to the NBA is definately the main question I have for him. Similarly, it's the reason I don't like Jianlian, Durant, Horford, Thornton, basically all the PFs that Nellie might consider, or even a guy like Gasol from a trade, because they would give us post scoring, which would be great for our offensive efficiency, but it wouldn't improve our other players to get into a team concept. Would Julian Wright help? I think so, but I don't know if it would be enough to alter the team concept completely. Jeff Green has everything we need in a SF, but does he give the intangibles to alter the perspectives of our defense and ball movement? I don't think a prospect, even a good one, is going to make all the other players hold themselves more accountable to becoming more efficient and outworking their opponents.

If Jason Richardson could have (I know, could have should have) been healthy this year, I would have loved to see what he would have been able to work on in the off-season. I see some defensive potential there, and some ability to move without the ball. He just hasn't had the coaching since Michigan St. and doesn't know where to be. Posting him up is going to work temporarily, but if he could roll off screens, man, that would change the whole team concept.

Remember Baron was a guy that used to be a top 5 defender at PG, not only in steals, but was a shutdown defender as late as 2003ish. What the hell happened to that guy? That would make a big difference. I just see these players at different points in their relatively short careers and see things that would really improve this team and don't understand why those guys can't bring that stuff back.

 

<div class="quote_poster">StateofFlux Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I definately agree with the main components of your point CR2. That's why I'm even considering Belinelli as a pick for us because he's such a pure shooter and seems to have a strong effort on defense, whether that translates to the NBA is definately the main question I have for him. Similarly, it's the reason I don't like Jianlian, Durant, Horford, Thornton, basically all the PFs that Nellie might consider, or even a guy like Gasol from a trade, because they would give us post scoring, which would be great for our offensive efficiency, but it wouldn't improve our other players to get into a team concept. Would Julian Wright help? I think so, but I don't know if it would be enough to alter the team concept completely. Jeff Green has everything we need in a SF, but does he give the intangibles to alter the perspectives of our defense and ball movement? I don't think a prospect, even a good one, is going to make all the other players hold themselves more accountable to becoming more efficient and outworking their opponents.

If Jason Richardson could have (I know, could have should have) been healthy this year, I would have loved to see what he would have been able to work on in the off-season. I see some defensive potential there, and some ability to move without the ball. He just hasn't had the coaching since Michigan St. and doesn't know where to be. Posting him up is going to work temporarily, but if he could roll off screens, man, that would change the whole team concept.

Remember Baron was a guy that used to be a top 5 defender at PG, not only in steals, but was a shutdown defender as late as 2003ish. What the hell happened to that guy? That would make a big difference. I just see these players at different points in their relatively short careers and see things that would really improve this team and don't understand why those guys can't bring that stuff back.</div>

The draft is a crapshoot, but i'm sure if somebody studies up on some players and really does their homework, we cand find at least one guy that can contribute right away and has some great upside.

I really do think we need inside presence, because not everything can be made off of dribble drive penetrations and kickout passes, especially if we can't get anything in transition. Dive cutting works occasionally, but only if you have good shooters at the top of the key. I'd still take a post up threat anyday that can kick out to a shooter or a passer throwing it back on the re-post. Dampier is usually crap, but I've seen him do it a few times to set somebody else up and he works better at setting screen and picks versus the other guys we've had at PF and C. I'm hoping we get a guy like that only more aggressive and consistent. The only reason I think Ike couldn't do that style of game, was not because he was dumb, it was because he was undersized. He needs to rely on spin move, quickness and using his wide body to break free whereas as Dampier just needed to just use his strength for a drop step move. I'm keeping in mind Dampier wasn't really a post player, but he sure gave us some money's worth on putback dunks. I've seen some pretty damn weak finishes ever since we lost Dampier and Ike. Only Biedrins manages to actually do something about it because everyone else lacks the size, hustle, or strength.

Sigh... we need a player we don't have yet. To me that's a power forward or a center. I could care less about the small forwards unless it's one of them all-around type of guys that are very good physically and mentally and can actually shoot, dribble, pass and play some D not to be a liability.

Generally, I just want a guy that plays big like Jason Richardson, but way better than him because his defense ain't all that.

 

So, maybe a SF that is a pure spot up shooter with great defense? that would help I would think. I see your point about needing to kick out to get open shots, for some reason I remember at the beginning of the season we were talking about how the threes we were taking were better because they were drive and kicks. Possibly because we have so many bad finishers at the rim, or for another reason, defenders don't react, leave their man, to help on the drive. Possibly we have guys that drive and can't see they are creating shots for others (Harrington, Jrich in particular) unless they turn around and alert their defender to jump back, making the drive useless. I don't know, but something changed and I think that significantly affected our win total.

I am sort of confused by your point about Dampier and his positive qualities. It sounds like you are describing Biedrins and I don't understand, do you want a power forward that plays like a center? I just don't see that. I can't even see in any offense where Biedrins and Dampier in the same lineup would work, not at this stage of Biedrins' development. I can see a Small Forward that plays like a Power Forward that can do what you described in terms of screens, finishing around the basket, etc. I am thinking of Jeff Green and Julian Wright in particular. These guys are playing Power Forward and are projected as Small Forwards and I just don't see that. Both of them need to be close to the basket to be most effective and defend 4s pretty well.

Once they get to the NBA and have to guard 7 footers, that's something different, but I would say that I would hope O'Bryant would contribute at least a little bit in those regards, otherwise completely wasted pick. I am expecting contributions from him similar to Kaman's first year, which was around 20 mins, 6 points, 6 rebounds a game.

It would go a long way to see Nellie using more Powell Biedrins lineups or god forbid O'Bryant Biedrins lineups, just to see if he truly is willing to maximize the strengths and weaknesses of the team. I just hope Powell is alright, not only in terms of this respect, but also in general because he is such a workhouse. The kind we really need. Interesting how that works out....

 

I guess my main point about Dampier was that when he actually caught the ball, he could post up some. We don't do it enough with Biedrins. We don't really have a guy that can dominate with some strength down low...

I just hope there is a player that can add to more of what Biedrins does or what Dampier did in his contract year, because we need depth at the four and five. It'd be great if we could find the type of power forward that Nelson wants like a Webber or Nowitzki, but I'll be grateful if we just have defenders/rebounders at the big spots so that Biedrins is more effective. There's really nobody to protect him if he's trying to guard the basket, but can't get there in time or he's put in a bad situation where he feels like he has to risk the foul to make a stop.

But yeah I'd take an SF that can make guys better. You know look at what Lebron James did for Cleveland. I don't think they have that great of a team but Lebron just makes a lot of guys better. Joe Johnson is a similar type of way, only not as good obviously.

In a drafting situation, I guess the GM should pick the guy that has been carefully researched and has the most potential and nba readiness combined.

 

I think some serious thought should be paid to hanging onto Azubuike and cutting ties with Pietrus, since Kelenna seems to play the same sort of game, but much more fundamentally. In Azubuike I think you've got a guy who can be a very good backup SF, and a reliable starter if necessary. Then, looking around the NBA, given the Warriors depth, there has to be a trade out there for a decent forward... and after five minutes of racking my brain, I can't think of one. Richard Jefferson, maybe? Man, that -is- a stretch... maybe I'm not the GM I thought I was.

 

<div class="quote_poster">StateofFlux Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Baron is the only one on our team that has been past the first round I believe, and Harrington barely played on his pacer teams when he was in the playoffs.</div>

FYI, SJax got a ring with the Spurs.


I'm hoping that we get the 8th seed and take on Dallas in the first round. We were the only team to beat them 3 times last year, and twice in Dallas. We have also beat them in Dallas this year. I know we aren't the same team we were last year, losing key players such as Dunleavy and Murphy (haha) but wouldn't that be weird to take them out in the first round? Of course we'd be swept in the the second round, but I wouldn't care! We can dream, right?

 

I sort of meant in a starting role, but Jackson does have the experience so good point.

 

Playoffs are a dream and really not that rewarding because it looks like it might be a sub .500 record. If the Warriors got in while going 42-40 or 43-39, that's an accomplishment. Going in with a sub .500 record is not worth it.

 

The Warriors aren't even going to sniff .500 again this year. They'll be lucky to finish with a better record than last year.

 

So what do we do in the draft? I hope Mullin does the wheeling and dealings because I'm sort of scared of Nelson. I mean Nelson could take some good risks and wind up with a unique player that could make a difference or he could take some bad risks and end up trading away a lot of our future in the form of the next three years of first round picks or he could trade for some rookie bust for one of our good players.

Billy Owens, and the price that was paid for Chris Webber, anyone?

History has a strange way of repeating itself in Warrior land and I feel it's because guys aren't learning from their mistakes. So I hope Mullin realizes the very bad risks because he was there as a player when that all happened and so was Nelson as a coach.

 

Well, good thing about this draft is that no one is going to trade away Oden, and I doubt even Durant could be traded away considering how afraid GMs are these days of making mistakes. If we trade alot for Brandan Wright, I can definately see some similarities, but if we are drafting 5th/6th anyways, I doubt Nellie would give up that much for a player without the ball handling skills of a Webber-type player.

That said, if he trades away some of big time players like Baron and Jrich, I can see alot of people being all up in arms. However, I doubt it affects the team as much as originally thought. Ellis and Biedrins are his best players in his own mind, and he is right on that account. I think that bodes well for less mistakes.

We are the warriors, however, so I speculate that if we do well in the draft, luck will have nothing to do with it (cuz we are the warriors), and will have everything to do with it at the same time (also because we are the warriors).

 

<div class="quote_poster">StateofFlux Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well, good thing about this draft is that no one is going to trade away Oden, and I doubt even Durant could be traded away considering how afraid GMs are these days of making mistakes. If we trade alot for Brandan Wright, I can definately see some similarities, but if we are drafting 5th/6th anyways, I doubt Nellie would give up that much for a player without the ball handling skills of a Webber-type player.

That said, if he trades away some of big time players like Baron and Jrich, I can see alot of people being all up in arms. However, I doubt it affects the team as much as originally thought. Ellis and Biedrins are his best players in his own mind, and he is right on that account. I think that bodes well for less mistakes.

We are the warriors, however, so I speculate that if we do well in the draft, luck will have nothing to do with it (cuz we are the warriors), and will have everything to do with it at the same time (also because we are the warriors).</div>

I like your reads.

I'll be watching more college ball to figure out which guys could be champs and enjoy the fact the players are in it for the heart and not the money.

I remember I liked the real underrated guys in the draft that went to college and that people didn't talk much about. You know, they were good at a lot of things. For instance Joe Johnson from the Razorbacks after he wasn't talked about much on the Celtics. Then there was Josh Howard who fell all the way almost to the second round.

I'm sure REREM a.k.a Old Rem has a few guys in mind that I'd probably like if I got to see those college players more. I liked the potential of guys like Andray Blatche, Andrew Bynum, Gerald Green who skipped college (and probably could have been a lot better had they played one or two years like Melo or Bosh did). I probably liked the nba readiness of guys like Ike Diogu, Emeka Okafor, Sean May, Luke Ridnour, Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, and such.

I'll take a Pac 10, Big East, or ACC player of the year or top player (except anything from Duke that's pale, slow and unathletic with not much toughness, lol). There's some good strong conferences out there where we can probably get a good read on a certain player, their upside, and how they can contribute right now. There's no point in gambling unless we're getting T-mac, Lebron, or Dwight Howard and such. A lot of these high school guys are just not ready and it's tougher when they have to learn on the job because they weren't as good as Kobe, Garnett, or some of these other young players that are just naturally good at knowing their position and role on the team. It's like with Ellis.

But you know, I'm open to whatever if we have good scouts that do their homework on international players. Biedrins was a good pick. I'd like to see if we could find any other international guys that could be impact players hopefully now and in the future. We wanted a Pau Gasol type player, supposedly that athletic 7 foot Chinese guy people are talking about could be it. But, CBA is kind of weak for big man talent. They got guys who are 7 feet tall but they aren't that strong or quick like in the nba, so it's hard to gauge how his overall skillset will matchup with him being a tweener and all (stuck between SF and PF).

Another player I thought would be solid was Tiago Splitter, the German Brazillian 7 footer. But he's been seen a lot over the years and he's got no upside, being the 5th best player on the starting five for Tau Ceramica err Tau Vitoria or whatever it was.

 

Oh and about Splitter. I do like his fundamentals, but man sounds like a big version of Dunleavy. No consistent aggressiveness, kind of weak. Very athletic, but not a shotblocker which is kind of weak... Plus, he doesn't play above the rim much. He does score with either hand, posesses good natural instincts and is well coached, does the little things, and does some feats that are Pau Gasol-like, but he's not an offensive player because he's too passive. He'd rather just pass. I guess once you get to see the player for a while, you find out you can be totally wrong about the guy.

But hey if we want a lesser version of Biedrins, he's probably like a Beans clone. That whole light weight power forward trying to play center that plays around the basket.

For other big men, does anybody know what the scoop is on Brook Lopez and Spencer Hawes?