<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I cannot find the video, but Brian Cook did the exact same motion the very next night against the Knicks, when Kobe was suspended the first time. He wasn't suspended.</div> He knocked someone in the face with that motion?
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He knocked someone in the face with that motion?</div> Yes. He knocked the defender's contact lense out.
<div class="quote_poster">Moo2K4 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Ok, what about Shaq's foul on Marvin Williams the other night? That wasn't what I'd call a pleasant and Shaq got a flagrant for it too, yet he gets nothing.</div> Like I said, I don't agree with the suspension either. I just don't see how anyone can make a big deal out of the Lebron foul.
anyone that can watch the two incidents and still say it was unintentional is simply 100% biased. Kobe obviously tried to create contact...and he did so by swinging his arm at a persons face! i think thats a little bit different than reggie miller sticking his feet out during a jump shot. Two players that could of broke their noses, jaws or had teeth knocked out. Kobe doesn't shoot like that all the time...he never does. So how can you not say its intentional?!
<div class="quote_poster">02civic Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">anyone that can watch the two incidents and still say it was unintentional is simply 100% biased. Kobe obviously tried to create contact...and he did so by swinging his arm at a persons face! i think thats a little bit different than reggie miller sticking his feet out during a jump shot. Two players that could of broke their noses, jaws or had teeth knocked out. Kobe doesn't shoot like that all the time...he never does. So how can you not say its intentional?!</div> Is it any different than a player who pushes off with his hand to the shotblockers face, dips their shoulder into a players jaw, or swings an elbow to create space on a layup attempt? These are all just offensive fouls by nature. Sometimes the defender gets the worst of it, because they get caught in the face or head area. However, they don't suspend the offensive player for it. They might get whistled for an offensive foul or at worst a flagrant 1. The same rule should apply for Kobe when he extends his arms out. The players are intentionally creating contact, but I don't think you can claim they are intentionally trying to cause harm to the defender. Can you honestly claim Kobe purposely tried to injure Jaric on the play?
Invalid Video Link *Fast forward it to about :30 seconds left. I was watching the Kobe/Miller incident and it seems like Miller used the same arm flail tactic, which has been getting Kobe in trouble lately. I don't think Kobe intends to injure/hurt his opponents; it's all about drawing contact.
Looks similar, but pretty hard to tell with only that angle, and from that far away. If they actually payed any attention to it or showed a replay, I might actually be able to get a good look at it. But they dont heh... from that, it looks much less severe than Kobes. But like I said, I can't really tell...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxjWWPu__xE<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said, I don't agree with the suspension either. I just don't see how anyone can make a big deal out of the Lebron foul.</div> I wouldn't normally make a big deal about the Lebron foul... but under the circumstances, with Kobe being singled out and suspended TWICE and the Lakers losing two big games as a result of this I can't help it. How is this not deserving of a suspension if Kobe was? Invalid Video Link
<div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I wouldn't normally make a big deal about the Lebron foul... but under the circumstances, with Kobe being singled out and suspended TWICE and the Lakers losing two big games as a result of this I can't help it. How is this not deserving of a suspension if Kobe was? </div> Because LeBron was making a legitimate basketball play and accidentally clipped Wade. Kobe was trying to bait the refs into blowing the whistle with his extraneous arm motion, and it backfired. I just think the lesson here is (a) you should play the game honestly, and ( if you decide to play dishonestly and flop around, you should accept the consequences if you hurt another player as a result.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Because LeBron was making a legitimate basketball play and accidentally clipped Wade. Kobe was trying to bait the refs into blowing the whistle with his extraneous arm motion, and it backfired. I just think the lesson here is (a) you should play the game honestly, and ( if you decide to play dishonestly and flop around, you should accept the consequences if you hurt another player as a result.</div> You normally make good objective posts. This is just not one of them. How was the Lebron play a legitimate basketball play? Lebrons arm was nowhere near the basketball that Wade already has in his hand. There is nothing you can do to convince me that Lebron was originally hoping to steal the ball then saw that Wade had it and decided he would go for an intentional foul and out him on the line... he may not have meant to hit him hard in the head... but thats what he did.
<div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You normally make good objective posts. This is just not one of them. How was the Lebron play a legitimate basketball play? Lebrons arm was nowhere near the basketball that Wade already has in his hand. There is nothing you can do to convince me that Lebron was originally hoping to steal the ball then saw that Wade had it and decided he would go for an intentional foul and out him on the line... he may not have meant to hit him hard in the head... but thats what he did.</div> Committing an intentional foul in that instance (which is what I think LeBron was trying to do) is a legitimate basketball play. LeBron and Wade are buddies -- he obviously wasn't purposely trying to foul him hard.
<div class="quote_poster">Marbire Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Looks similar, but pretty hard to tell with only that angle, and from that far away. If they actually payed any attention to it or showed a replay, I might actually be able to get a good look at it. But they dont heh... from that, it looks much less severe than Kobes. But like I said, I can't really tell...</div> Please. Be objective. Why put it down to how severe the blow was?!... Cook did exactly the same thing Kobe did but was not suspended. Point blank. There is no excuse. They are inconsistent with this call and its punishment.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Committing an intentional foul in that instance (which is what I think LeBron was trying to do) is a legitimate basketball play. LeBron and Wade are buddies -- he obviously wasn't purposely trying to foul him hard.</div> You do realize that what you are saying is that a player could "legitimately" go for an intentional foul and hit someone in the face or head and injure them seriously and get off scott free right? Situation: A player wants to retaliate on another player... they see an opportunity to go for a hard intentional foul on said player... they also figure they want to do something malicious as well and so they go for the head. They get a flagrant foul. No suspension. You agree with this?! And who is the person who factors in that Lebron and Wade are buddies and so there was no malicious intent? Well... maybe Kobe meant to intentionally foul Jaric?! LOL.. you guys are really reaching with this. Just say it: You don't particularly like Kobe and are glad he got suspended... but the suspensions are inconsistent.
<div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Please. Be objective. Why put it down to how severe the blow was?!... Cook did exactly the same thing Kobe did but was not suspended. Point blank. There is no excuse. They are inconsistent with this call and its punishment.</div> Cook didn't do exactly the same thing. He didn't hit the defender squarely in the face with an arm flailing motion. From the angle in that clip, it looks like a natural follow through to me that clips the side of the defenders face. The nature of the contact is a very important factor in the decision. <div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You do realize that what you are saying is that a player could "legitimately" go for an intentional foul and hit someone in the face or head and injure them seriously and get off scott free right?</div> You could legitimately do a lot of things in sports that injures a player, without deserving punishment. That's the nature of contact sports. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Situation: A player wants to retaliate on another player... they see an opportunity to go for a hard intentional foul on said player... they also figure they want to do something malicious as well and so they go for the head. They get a flagrant foul. No suspension. You agree with this?!</div> Nope. If there's good reason to think contact wasn't simply inadvertant but there was a history behind it, than that should be taken into account. Unless a player is unbelievably clever, I don't think he could disguise such an act to the point that no one suspects he was making a dirty play. Let's be realistic. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And who is the person who factors in that Lebron and Wade are buddies and so there was no malicious intent?</div> The league. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well... maybe Kobe meant to intentionally foul Jaric?! LOL.. you guys are really reaching with this. Just say it: You don't particularly like Kobe and are glad he got suspended... but the suspensions are inconsistent.</div> I never said Kobe intentionally fouled Jaric. Maybe intent is what the league is going on -- if so, I think they're suspending him for the wrong reasons. The suspensions, if anything, is justified on the grounds that he's flopping and putting other people in danger as a result. That was my argument from day 1 on this issue.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Ultimately, it's not intent but rather the physical evidence and contact that the league has to base its decisions on.</div> Really? So then Lebron should have been suspended then....
<div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Really? So then Lebron should have been suspended then.... </div> Haha. Honestly, as soon as I submitted that, I went back and deleted that sentence from the post. But it looks like you caught me anyways. The league officials likes to say that they don't officiate intent. That's a bunch of bull, of course. They do examine what happened during the course of a game, and they take that into account when assessing individual plays. Regardless, we know what should and should not be punished. LeBron's play was obviously accidental (you're not seriously suggesting he tried to hurt Wade, right?), and it occured on a routine basketball play. No pushishment is warranted. With Kobe, I think it was probably also unintentional. However, if you're doing somethign on the court that you really shouldn't be doing -- flopping in this case -- and you consequentially nail another player in the face, I have a harder time accepting the "Oh, but it was unintentional" card. I think the league should discourage and punish actions that are undermining the rules of the game (the flop) and at the same time dangerous to other players on the court.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> With Kobe, I think it was probably also unintentional. However, if you're doing somethign on the court that you really shouldn't be doing -- flopping in this case </div> Wow, so you're saying that "flopping" a tactic thats been used for decades should not be used on the court?
