<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You aren't the only one who thought Juwan was capable on contributing. You did, however, say that we should have cut Chuck Hayes after the preseason. There goes your credibility.</div> I was DEFINATLEY the only one who said Howard was gonna have a great season. Umair is the closest one, and he kinda flip flopped on his position. Everybody on this board basically disowned Howard. "Washed up", "Old", & "Slow" were the words used to describe Juwan. Now he's a MAJOR contributor who happens to be our most reliable midrange shooter. So my credibility stands above all at this point. The question is should he be starting, I say yes.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I was DEFINATLEY the only one who said Howard was gonna have a great season. Umair is the closest one, and he kinda flip flopped on his position. Everybody on this board basically disowned Howard. "Washed up", "Old", & "Slow" were the words used to describe Juwan. Now he's a MAJOR contributor who happens to be our most reliable midrange shooter. So my credibility stands above all at this point. The question is should he be starting, I say yes.</div> Your prediction that he'd have a "great season" is sort of worthless, though. If I recall, you actually said he was playing "great" in November, even though it was obvious that he was struggling and off the a very slow start. I don't think I ever called Juwan washed up. Nor did I ever discount the possibility that he'd be a productive player for us. Juwan has exceeded my expectations, but certainly not to the point where I'd say he's having a "great season." He's played well, certainly better than he has his first two seasons with us, though like most role player he has his limitations (lack of quickness defensively, and poor rebounding as the season has progressed). He's been most valuable for us when Yao or McGrady have been injured (which, unfortunately, has been most of the season). And, as I've said numerous times including before the season, I think he can be a valuable player for us off the bench when those two are in the lineup. As for your credibility, like I said that was shot just based on what you said about Chuck to start the season (a scrub who should have been cut from the team). It sounded ridiculous then, and it's been confirmed as ridiculous now. You were also way off on Bonzi. And, if I recall, you didn't like the Battier trade. So, you were 1 for 4. All my predictions regarding Chuck and Juwan at the beginning of the season, btw, are holding true up to this point. My predictions can actually be verified, since they're based on objective achievement and not subjective evaluations like yours. Chuck's per minute numbers overall are better (as determined by PER), his rebounding-rate is far higher, when he's on the floor our team defense has been considerably better, etc. I'll wait to the end of the season to list the final results.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Your prediction that he'd have a "great season" is sort of worthless, though. If I recall, you actually said he was playing "great" in November, even though it was obvious that he was struggling and off the a very slow start.</div> Go ahead and find the exact quote when I said that.................I'll be waiting <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think I ever called Juwan washed up. Nor did I ever discount the possibility that he'd be a productive player for us. Juwan has exceeded my expectations, but certainly not to the point where I'd say he's having a "great season." He's played well, certainly better than he has his first two seasons with us, though like most role player he has his limitations (lack of quickness defensively, and poor rebounding as the season has progressed). He's been most valuable for us when Yao or McGrady have been injured (which, unfortunately, has been most of the season). And, as I've said numerous times including before the season, I think he can be a valuable player for us off the bench when those two are in the lineup.</div> Actually he's picked up his play since Yao got back again. Ur contributing Howard's success to him comin off the bench, which is wrong. He's succeeding because he's a skilled bigman with very solid range. He'd put up the same numbers he's putting up now starting for this team. I happen to think Hayes would be a great utility player used for rebounding purposes. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">As for your credibility, like I said that was shot just based on what you said about Chuck to start the season (a scrub who should have been cut from the team). It sounded ridiculous then, and it's been confirmed as ridiculous now. You were also way off on Bonzi. And, if I recall, you didn't like the Battier trade. So, you were 1 for 4. </div> Yea but him being cut from the team was simply an opinion, not a prediction. If we snagged up an athletic PF in replace of Chuck, who knows where this team would be. Bonzi hasn't played much, but that's due to JVG and his silly rotation. I didn't like the Battier trade at first, but that's before we got Snyder & Bonzi. So ur reaching..........My credibility is close to impeccable
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Go ahead and find the exact quote when I said that.................I'll be waiting</div> Sure, it was this post: "Actually, Juwan has played great in the little minutes he's got. He's rebounded, defended, and hit his open shots. For some reason, he's not getting much play in the 4th quarter. I think him and JVG might have an agreement that he's gonna be traded as soon as a good deal come by." I mean, if his November is "playing great", then the word "great" has completely lost its meaning.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">My credibility is close to impeccable</div> Funny, no one else thinks so. Keep telling yourself that, just like how you were right about everything all along. You remind me of the Iraqi Information minister. You see what you want to see, report what fits your slanted viewpoints and ignore everything else. I have yet to see you back any of your claims up. Sorry, backing your opinions up with more opinions doesnt quite cut it. You don't even have to use stats. You could have used an in depth analysis of certain plays within the game to prove a point, but generally you don't even do that. It's like a colorblind person who insists that blue and green are the same color and refusing to believe hes colorblind, or that colorblindness even exists despite all the research out there. Also the sever inconsistancies of your statements that contradict each other.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Funny, no one else thinks so. Keep telling yourself that, just like how you were right about everything all along. You remind me of the Iraqi Information minister. You see what you want to see, report what fits your slanted viewpoints and ignore everything else. I have yet to see you back any of your claims up. Sorry, backing your opinions up with more opinions doesnt quite cut it. You don't even have to use stats. You could have used an in depth analysis of certain plays within the game to prove a point, but generally you don't even do that.</div> Slanted viewpoints? How can my opinion be slanted? It's MY OPINION . This isn't Hannity & Colmes lol. My opinion is Howard's the better player than Chuck, he should start. Howard's had a great season, do you really need stats to see that? <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's like a colorblind person who insists that blue and green are the same color and refusing to believe hes colorblind, or that colorblindness even exists despite all the research out there.</div> Huh? I'll respect you more when you actually go out on a limb and say somethin of importance. Until then, thank you
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Funny, no one else thinks so. Keep telling yourself that, just like how you were right about everything all along. You remind me of the Iraqi Information minister. You see what you want to see, report what fits your slanted viewpoints and ignore everything else. I have yet to see you back any of your claims up. Sorry, backing your opinions up with more opinions doesnt quite cut it. You don't even have to use stats. You could have used an in depth analysis of certain plays within the game to prove a point, but generally you don't even do that.</div> Slanted viewpoints? How can my opinion be slanted? It's MY OPINION . This isn't Hannity & Colmes lol. My opinion is Howard's the better player than Chuck, he should start. Howard's had a great season, do you really need stats to see that? <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's like a colorblind person who insists that blue and green are the same color and refusing to believe hes colorblind, or that colorblindness even exists despite all the research out there.</div> Huh? I'll respect you more when you actually go out on a limb and say somethin of importance. Until then, thank you <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">SActually, Juwan has played great in the little minutes he's got. He's rebounded, defended, and hit his open shots. For some reason, he's not getting much play in the 4th quarter. I think him and JVG might have an agreement that he's gonna be traded as soon as a good deal come by."</div> "Juwan has played great in the little minutes he's got" Thats far from what you originally claimed I said. Nice try
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">"Juwan has played great in the little minutes he's got" Thats far from what you originally claimed I said. Nice try</div> It's the same thing. There is no difference between playing great and playing great in the minutes you receive, because a player has no control over the minutes he receives. If Juwan played like he was playing then, but did it for 30 mpg a game instead, the quality of his play is no different. He's just doing the same hting, but for a longer period of time. And, as I said, for you to actually say he was playing great in those minutes shows that your definition of "great" is so skewed that it loses its meaning. Juwan was terrible in November. But he improved sigificantly when McGrady and Yao got injured, to his credit.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Slanted viewpoints? How can my opinion be slanted? It's MY OPINION . This isn't Hannity & Colmes lol. My opinion is Howard's the better player than Chuck, he should start. Howard's had a great season, do you really need stats to see that? </div> Of course its your opinion. I don't mind your opinion, but when you back your opinion with more opinion, it loses all meaning. If I am to state the world was flat, I'm going to have to back it with some sort of data, not make up some story about it. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> "Juwan has played great in the little minutes he's got" Thats far from what you originally claimed I said. Nice try</div> He played horribly in november. It doesnt matter if he got little minutes. Its like say Padgett played great in the little minutes he got.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He played horribly in november. It doesnt matter if he got little minutes. Its like say Padgett played great in the little minutes he got.</div> No he didn't. How can you expect a player to put up great numbers in a significantly reduced number of minutes? Common sense Einstine <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's the same thing. There is no difference between playing great and playing great in the minutes you receive, because a player has no control over the minutes he receives. If Juwan played like he was playing then, but did it for 30 mpg a game instead, the quality of his play is no different. He's just doing the same hting, but for a longer period of time. And, as I said, for you to actually say he was playing great in those minutes shows that your definition of "great" is so skewed that it loses its meaning. Juwan was terrible in November. But he improved sigificantly when McGrady and Yao got injured, to his credit.</div> No it doesn't. He played hard and maintained a level of professionalism even though he wasn't gettin the minutes (even tho he should've). There is no reason his role should've been reduced like that. In the little time he played, he did his job. That's what I said. To leave that out means ur cutting & pasting my words. If Juwan played so terrible in the time he got in November, he wouldn't be gettin the minutes he's gettin now.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">No it doesn't. He played hard and maintained a level of professionalism even though he wasn't gettin the minutes (even tho he should've). There is no reason his role should've been reduced like that. In the little time he played, he did his job. That's what I said. To leave that out means ur cutting & pasting my words. If Juwan played so terrible in the time he got in November, he wouldn't be gettin the minutes he's gettin now.</div> No, you said he was playing great. That's exactly what you said. You actually used the word "great" to describe the way he was playing. It's right in the damn post, so don't deny it. Does "great" now mean "playing hard and maintaining a level of professionalism"? He was shooting for a poor percentage, he wasn't rebounding well, his defense was shoddy. Yet you think he was doing his job? Juwan's minutes increased because JVG stuck with him and he eventually started to play better. Juwan simply wasn't playing well, on a per minute basis, when you made those comments. He might have played hard and with professionalism, but that doesn't mean he's playing great. Obviously, we have very different standards for playing great, which is why I don't put much stock in your so called prediction. Let's just leave it at that.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">No, you said he was playing great. That's exactly what you said. You actually used the word "great" to describe the way he was playing. It's right in the damn post, so don't deny it. Does "great" now mean "playing hard and maintaining a level of professionalism"? He was shooting for a poor percentage, he wasn't rebounding well, his defense was shoddy. Yet you think he was doing his job? Juwan's minutes increased because JVG stuck with him and he eventually started to play better. Juwan simply wasn't playing well, on a per minute basis, when you made those comments. He might have played hard and with professionalism, but that doesn't mean he's playing great. Obviously, we have very different standards for playing great, which is why I don't put much stock in your so called prediction. Let's just leave it at that.</div> Ur once again misleading. Juwan didn't even play in most of the preseason games and CAME in the season NOT gettin minutes. So the notion that he did somethin to deserve his minutes bein cut is simply FALSE. JVG thought we could win without Howard, which was another blunder. He was FORCED to play him because he was outplayin any of the other PF on the team. Go back and read the WHOLE quote. "He's playin great in the LITTLE TIME HE GETS". That means though his minutes are bein cut by the coach, he's played well in the little time he's been out there. Stop mimizing one word of my comment to fit ur conclusion. My notion has been right and Howard has outplayed Hayes this season. You can't touch me......
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">No he didn't. How can you expect a player to put up great numbers in a significantly reduced number of minutes? Common sense Einstine </div> I love the irony in you making fun of my intelligence when you fail to even spell his name correctly. YOU CAN PUT UP GREAT NUMBERS IN LIMITED MINUTES. By great I dont mean on a per game basis, that would be silly. I'm talking about production per minute. Hayes had great numbers in his limited time last season. Tsakalidas(sp?) put up some pretty good numbers in his limited amount of minutes in Memphis. Deke last year put out great numbers in reduced minutes as well. Fact is, Juwan played horribly in November, and you said he played great in those minutes. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> No it doesn't. He played hard and maintained a level of professionalism even though he wasn't gettin the minutes (even tho he should've). There is no reason his role should've been reduced like that. In the little time he played, he did his job. That's what I said. To leave that out means ur cutting & pasting my words. If Juwan played so terrible in the time he got in November, he wouldn't be gettin the minutes he's gettin now.</div> Um, primary reason he was getting more minutes was due to a few reasons. First JVG was experimenting at the 4. He originally had some sort of plans for Novak (which explains his pt in the early games). That didnt cut it. Eventually Yao Ming's injury boosted Juwans playing time considerably. If someone can get some stats on Juwan in Novemeber, or you could look it up (which you probably won't), you can see that he was not playing well. I did calculate his shooting percentage in Novemenber to be 35%. Hardly great. Fact is, if Hayes were putting up double-double numbers the rest of the season, you would still continue to think he was a scrub and that Juwan outplayed Hayes. Then you would attribute it to Hayes playing next to Yao. Thing is, no matter how well Hayes is performing, you will find some excuse to bring his accomplishments down. Conversely if Juwan plays badly, you would also find some excuse and blame JVG for not utilizing Juwan correctly. You said he out played Hayes. Can you provide as to why you think that? Instead of using stupid generals statements like this can you provide some sort of detail as to why you believe that? Who has better defense? Who Hustles more? Who scores more? Who rebounds better? etc. Actually provide some sort of numbers or reason as to why you believe those other than just saying oh Juwan is a better player yatta yatta yatta.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Ur once again misleading. Juwan didn't even play in most of the preseason games and CAME in the season NOT gettin minutes. So the notion that he did somethin to deserve his minutes bein cut is simply FALSE.</div> I never said anything about him deserving to have his minutes cut. We're talking about your use of the word great. Quit skirting the issue. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> JVG thought we could win without Howard, which was another blunder. He was FORCED to play him because he was outplayin any of the other PF on the team. Go back and read the WHOLE quote. "He's playin great in the LITTLE TIME HE GETS". That means though his minutes are bein cut by the coach, he's played well in the little time he's been out there. Stop mimizing one word of my comment to fit ur conclusion. My notion has been right and Howard has outplayed Hayes this season. You can't touch me......</div> I already explained why his minutes increased. Chuck got injured, for one, and at the at the tail end of November Juwan started playing better. Then the injuries to McGrady and Yao. In the little time he got, he wasn't playing well. He was serviceable, at best. And you actually used the word "great" to describe how he was playing. So you can understand why your boast "I said Juwan would have a great season, and he did" doesn't mean much to me. You obviously have very low standards when it comes to Juwan. And I don't think you've ever even point out or acknowledged a single limitation in his game. Hardly objective. I'm done with this topic.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I already explained why his minutes increased. Chuck got injured, for one, and at the at the tail end of November Juwan started playing better. Then the injuries to McGrady and Yao.</div> Looks who's "squirting" the issue. Howard's minutes picked up because he outplayed Hayes. Simple as that.... <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">In the little time he got, he wasn't playing well. He was serviceable, at best. And you actually used the word "great" to describe how he was playing. So you can understand why your boast "I said Juwan would have a great season, and he did" doesn't mean much to me. You obviously have very low standards when it comes to Juwan. And I don't think you've ever even point out or acknowledged a single limitation in his game. Hardly objective. I'm done with this topic.</div> In the little time he got he played great. My point bein in VERY little time, great might be little but actually big considering it might've been in only 5minutes. A jumper, a charge and some made free throws. I agree, you should exit this agrument gracefully
