<div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You challenged me to name someone who would have done a better job. Basically, you're implying that Howard did the best anyone could do on Bargnani. You also called Bargnani a matchup problem for any team. In a nutshell, you maintained that Bargnani is hard to guard and that Howard did a good job.</div> Go back read the posts. NEVER once did I say Howard played Bargani good or bad . U made reference to Juwan's defense on a much bigger Bargani, who's a match up problem for the Rockets. So my question was "who does Locke think could do a better job". I knew you were gonna say Hayes, which brings me to my point. I'll eventually come back to that...... <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You tell me. You saw the game. For the record, I do think that Hayes would have done a better job. Hayes would have played Bargnani tighter and kept up with him on a better scale. He'll get beat too, but at least he won't give up easy outside shots. Bargnani had only 16 points? Oh right, he's a monster who normally goes off for 30, so Howard did a good job. Yeah, he only took 8 shots but he shot 9 free throws. You knock Chuck Hayes for being foul prone when I remember Howard fouling Bargnani on two occasions, both of which resulted in free throws.</div> Have you been following the season? Chuck Hayes is TERRIBLY foul prone. If he's so much superior at defense over Juwan, why is he alwayz in foul trouble? He's CONSTANTLY puttin his man on the free throw line. LOCKE, DOES FOULING EQUATE IN DEFENSE? Very easy question, i'll be waiting................... <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Don't be sarcastic now. You're the one knocking stats and now you bring them out. You also noticed that Chris Bosh had a very rough night and shot only 3 free throws when 10 attempts are the norm for him?</div> Ur the one gleefully celebrating Chuck's breakout game. He scored 8pts and had 8rebs lol. Those numbers are average for a NBA starter, but enuff to get you Chuck Hayes fans excited. Bosh had 16pts & 19rebs, that's a MONSTER overrall game. You guys have absolutley no logic lol.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Ur the one gleefully celebrating Chuck's breakout game. He scored 8pts and had 8rebs lol. Those numbers are average for a NBA starter, but enuff to get you Chuck Hayes fans excited. Bosh had 16pts & 19rebs, that's a MONSTER overrall game. You guys have absolutley no logic lol.</div> It wasn't his breakout game. Chuck has been putting up great numbers ever since Yao came back. As for this game, in the first and third quarters (when Chuck was actually playing and matched up against him), Bosh had 9 points, on 4-12 shooting from the field, and 7 rebounds (1 offensive). Chuck had 8 points on 3-5 from the field and 8 rebounds (4 offensive). Actually, he should have been credited with another offensive rebound, but instead it was called a loose ball foul on Toronto. Chuck also had 3 steals and a drawn charge. He actually outplayed Bosh while he was on the court. You constantly complain about other people using stats, but here you are making a poorly constructed argument based on the stats.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Go back read the posts. NEVER once did I say Howard played Bargani good or bad . U made reference to Juwan's defense on a much bigger Bargani, who's a match up problem for the Rockets. So my question was "who does Locke think could do a better job". I knew you were gonna say Hayes, which brings me to my point. I'll eventually come back to that......</div>And nowhere did I mention Chuck Hayes in that list. You asked me if I thought Hayes would have played Bargnani better, and I said yes. Ask anyone here or even on the Raptors' board. I watch the Raptors almost every game, and I know how Bargnani plays. Hayes would have played him better; but JVG couldn't put Hayes on Bargnani, because Howard on Bosh would've been even bigger a disaster. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Have you been following the season? Chuck Hayes is TERRIBLY foul prone. If he's so much superior at defense over Juwan, why is he alwayz in foul trouble? He's CONSTANTLY puttin his man on the free throw line. LOCKE, DOES FOULING EQUATE IN DEFENSE? Very easy question, i'll be waiting...................</div>Why do you even think Hayes is getting into foul trouble? He's constantly rotating and helping to cover teammates' assignments. If you watch the games, half of Chuck's fouls come when he's coming over to challenge a shot or trying to draw a charge. If everyone on the team guards their own people well, that won't even happen. In essence, half the guys he puts on the free throw line aren't even his own man. Look at Bosh last night. Also, look down the list. Guys who top the league in fouls are those that generally reputed as good defenders. Jermaine O'Neal, Tyson Chandler, Samuel Dalembert and Al Harrington. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ur the one gleefully celebrating Chuck's breakout game. He scored 8pts and had 8rebs lol. Those numbers are average for a NBA starter, but enuff to get you Chuck Hayes fans excited. Bosh had 16pts & 19rebs, that's a MONSTER overrall game. You guys have absolutley no logic lol.</div>I'm celebrating nothing. Last night's game is what we've come to expect out of Hayes. You're the one not giving him enough credit. And c'mon, Bosh had 16 points on 7 of 19 shooting. For a guy who shoots better than 50%, that's terrible. He averages 20 points a game and yet you call a 16 point performance "monster". As for the 19 boards, he had 2 offensive rebounds. That tells you Hayes did his job on the defensive end boxing Bosh out. What's Hayes supposed to do, keep Bosh away from the basket when the Rockets are on offense as well? Your dependence on stats is confusing. Almost all the time when stats don't go your way, they're useless, but when they help your case, bingo! Just so you know, fouls are a stat as well, but wait, they help your case. I should've known better than to try to change your mind; it's useless because your mind was set before anyone stepped onto the basketball court.
<div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And c'mon, Bosh had 16 points on 7 of 19 shooting. For a guy who shoots better than 50%, that's terrible. He averages 20 points a game and yet you call a 16 point performance "monster". As for the 19 boards, he had 2 offensive rebounds. That tells you Hayes did his job on the defensive end boxing Bosh out. What's Hayes supposed to do, keep Bosh away from the basket when the Rockets are on offense as well?</div> Locke, when Chuck and Bosh were matched up against eachother, Chuck actually outrebounded him. Effectively, Chuck had 9 rebounds and 5 offensive (he didn't get credit for one because it was called a loose ball foul); Bosh had 7 and only 1 offensive. Chuck held him to 4-12 shooting from the field. Chuck had 3 steals (two of them came against Bosh in a one-on-one situation) and a drawn charge. He outplayed Bosh.
Hayes clearly outplayed Howard in this game. I mean, the only thing the Raptors had to worry about with Juwan was a jumpshot at the elbow. He was a pylon on defense and didn't have much of a presence on the boards. Hayes, on the other hand, is the type of player that Bosh usually struggles against (strong but quick with his feet). He played great defense on Chris, and was taking advantage of our weak rebounding.
<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hayes clearly outplayed Howard in this game. I mean, the only thing the Raptors had to worry about with Juwan was a jumpshot at the elbow. He was a pylon on defense and didn't have much of a presence on the boards. Hayes, on the other hand, is the type of player that Bosh usually struggles against (strong but quick with his feet). He played great defense on Chris, and was taking advantage of our weak rebounding.</div> There you have it rock, a third person perspective on the issue.
<div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And nowhere did I mention Chuck Hayes in that list. You asked me if I thought Hayes would have played Bargnani better, and I said yes. Ask anyone here or even on the Raptors' board. I watch the Raptors almost every game, and I know how Bargnani plays. Hayes would have played him better; but JVG couldn't put Hayes on Bargnani, because Howard on Bosh would've been even bigger a disaster. </div> Raptors boad? who cares? Ur argument is Howard's defense is weak. But in reality ur not mentioning Hayes' inability to play man on man defense without fouling. Nobody dares mention that. <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Why do you even think Hayes is getting into foul trouble? He's constantly rotating and helping to cover teammates' assignments. If you watch the games, half of Chuck's fouls come when he's coming over to challenge a shot or trying to draw a charge. If everyone on the team guards their own people well, that won't even happen. In essence, half the guys he puts on the free throw line aren't even his own man. Look at Bosh last night.</div> Not so fast. Hayes gets a variety of different fouls. On some occaisons getting beat to the spot, some reaching & some pushing in the back. Why not make mention of that? In the time he's out there, his fouls come at an alarmingly high rate. Most of them are foolish fouls. <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Also, look down the list. Guys who top the league in fouls are those that generally reputed as good defenders. Jermaine O'Neal, Tyson Chandler, Samuel Dalembert and Al Harrington.</div> Okay....Give me the difference in number of minutes between Jermaine O'Neal and Chuck Hayes. Any player who plays significant minutes is gonna foul more. <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm celebrating nothing. Last night's game is what we've come to expect out of Hayes. You're the one not giving him enough credit.</div> Yes you are. Ur tryna make indirect statements about Howard's defense and boast Hayes's without mentioning how many silly fouls Chuck gets. In reality, the better teams are gonna really put you Chuck Hayes fans to shame. <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And c'mon, Bosh had 16 points on 7 of 19 shooting. For a guy who shoots better than 50%, that's terrible. He averages 20 points a game and yet you call a 16 point performance "monster". As for the 19 boards, he had 2 offensive rebounds. That tells you Hayes did his job on the defensive end boxing Bosh out. What's Hayes supposed to do, keep Bosh away from the basket when the Rockets are on offense as well?</div> Could be. Or it could be Bosh simply had a bad game. <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Your dependence on stats is confusing. Almost all the time when stats don't go your way, they're useless, but when they help your case, bingo! Just so you know, fouls are a stat as well, but wait, they help your case. I should've known better than to try to change your mind; it's useless because your mind was set before anyone stepped onto the basketball court.</div> That's not the case. I just don't believe in judging two different players by +/- stats. Ur whole method of winning a debate has been to overstate my points and blow them outta porportion. For example, you implied I said Howard was lockdown defender. When in all actuality, I made no mention of that. Juwan Howard's a solid defender, that's all I've said.
Jeez. "Bosh had a bad game". Why don't you say Bargnani had a good game, and that Howard would've been able to shut him down on a good day? Could be this, could be that. I'm a damn Raptors fan, so is Chutney, and whatever we know about the Raptors doesn't count for crap when it comes to analysis of the players? I've simply had enough of arguing with you. It's harder than chipping into a rock. You'll just deny and say "maybe" and not even give up half a step.
Bosh had a bad game, because Hayes played terrific defense on him. And he always does (Bosh only scored 13 last time). Chuck's up there with players like Jason Collins, Drew Gooden, Gerald Wallace, Francisco Elson, etc. Strong bodied players who can keep up with him when he puts the ball on the floor. Juwan may have been terrible against Bargnani, but he would've been just as bad, if not worse, on Bosh. And that's just on the defensive end. Hayes also put up his fair share of putbacks.
<div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Jeez. "Bosh had a bad game". Why don't you say Bargnani had a good game, and that Howard would've been able to shut him down on a good day? Could be this, could be that. I'm a damn Raptors fan, so is Chutney, and whatever we know about the Raptors doesn't count for crap when it comes to analysis of the players?</div> Because Howard can't shut Bosh down, and niether can Chuck Hayes. He had 16pts & 19rebs, which is pretty good but not his greatest shooting night. <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I've simply had enough of arguing with you. It's harder than chipping into a rock. You'll just deny and say "maybe" and not even give up half a step.</div> You had no argument in the first place. When Howard has another great game, ur not gonna be heard from.
Dude, I really wish this whole Howard vs. Hayes **** would die down. Its gotten to a point where its annoying, I want to come to a thread where people talk about the game OTHER than Hayes vs. Howard. Howard is a good shooter, which Chuck is not. Hayes does the little dirty work and knows how to get open especially when Yao and Tmac are in the lineup, which Howard doesn't do .. or atleast NOWHERE near good as Chuck. Both are good players but play a much different role as a PF. Now, I do agree with Rock4Life about Snyder's minutes and the defensive energy he brings of the bench ... but this Hayes vs. Howard thing has got to go. You guys have to realize they are two different players. Its like comparing Nash to Arenas .. same position - different kind of players. .. & Rock, you have to take into consideration what others are posting, man.
