Since I have ripped TJ to shreds in my last thread, here's my attack on Colangelo. I don't believe the crown that Raptors fans have placed on his head is even close to earned. I think his best moves have been no-brainers and his bolder moves have amounted to a pile of trash. First off, he broght over AP and Garbo. AP was a 2 time MVP of the Isreali league, and Garbo won a world championship with spain and shut down Dirk in the process....bold moves, not really. Its not like AP and Garbo were nobody's and were off the radar. Plus, the raps were lacking all kinds of talent so rolling the dice on a couple of guys that other teams might pass up on isn't that brilliant. I like to refer to his signing of Fred Jones as an example of how well he can kick the tires here in the NBA. So what if he tried to get Salmons first, he ain't exactly lighting the world on fire, 8pts and 3rebs while playing 27 mins a game ain't 6th man material. Next, TJ for Charlie...Ok, obviously i'm biased on this one. But even if you are a TJ backer, you'd have to take Charlie's injury into consideration, and the fact that the bucks have had loads of injuries and call this trade somewhat of a wash....rather a coin flip at best. I see Charlie's upside being way better then TJ's. BC also drafted Bargs....this is where he showed his most sack. He went way out on a limb to draft him #1, but right now it looks like the right move...you have to think that the Raps wouldn't have traded Charlie if they didn't take Bargs...wouldn't it have been better to take Brandon Roy right now? Sure Roy plays the 2, but its not like TJ has been the pass first PG that he was cracked up to be when the Raps aquired him. So that could be Roy/Calderone, AP/Mo, Garbo/Charlie/Graham, Bosh/Garbo/Humps, Rasho/Bosh. Looks like a deep team as well, and i'd take Roy's potential over TJ, and Charlie over Bargs. I think people are really forgetting about what Charlie can do just cause he has been bitten by the bug this year..... I think the best thing that BC brought to the raps is his name, and the illusion of credibility. Maybe that will help in the long run, but as for right now, I don't think that he has done enough to be considered as the reason that the raps are playoff bound.
I got to disagree with you. Here's how I would rate his moves: Traded Rafael Araujo for Kris Humphries: Good This was a hell of a trade that only doesn't get an "excellent," because Humphries can only impact the game so much. But, he's a hundred times better than Hoffa and can provide some rebounding and toughness off the bench for the bigger post players. Traded Matt Bonner, Eric Williams for Rasho Nesterovic: Good This has been a very underrated move for us. Nesterovic has been our only consistent post defender, rebounder and has picked up the slack for a lazy Chris Bosh. He's shown great passing from the post and even hit a jumpshot once in a while. The only thing holding this move back is the size of Rasho's salary. Eventually, that contract is going to overshadow his value to this team. Signing Anthony Parker: Excellent Don't kid yourself, this was by no means an obvious move. As good as his Euroleague credentials were, you have to realize that Parker was demanding the money of a starter. Teams had shown interest in him for a number of years (including the Raptors a couple years back), but none were willing to offer enough to entice him to leave Israel. Colangelo took a big risk giving just over $4 mill/year for a 31 year old who hadn't proven himself in the NBA. Signing Jorge Garbajosa: Good This signing is similar to Parker's in that people knew he was a good European player, but few considered him worth $3.75 mill/year especially considering his age. He's been a good starter on this team, who impacts the game beyond the statline. Drafting Andrea Bargnani: Excellent This was one hell of a decision on his part. While most of us were wary of the unknown and were hoping for players like Adam Morrison (overrated), Lamarcus Aldridge (redundant), or Brandon Roy (nothing wrong with him), he took a chance on the only player who seems to have the potential to be an All-Star at some point. I could go on about how much I enjoy watching Bargnani, but Chuck and Leo have sort of stolen my thunder. Signing Fred Jones: Bad The intention was good, but Jones never really lived up to his promise here. He morphed into a completely different player that wouldn't play to his strengths and fell in love with his crappy jumper. Did a total 180 after the preseason. The only reason this isn't a terrible move, is because of how much he was being paid. Trading Charlie Villanueva for TJ Ford: Undecided There's arguments you could put for both sides of this trade. On one hand, the Raptors replaced Villanueva with a much better prospect in Bargnani and now have one of the more effective PG duos in the league. Despite his inconsistency, there's no denying his talent, age, potential, and the fact that he would play much better with a proper offensive system. On the other hand, we gave up "big for small" which is supposedly a no-no, had to pay TJ right now, and TJ's been frustrating at times. Ultimately, I think it's a wash that will only be decided a year or so from now. Keeping Sam Mitchell: Terrible As successful as we've been this year, Mitchell's been tough to watch at times. He's built a good repore with this roster, but has somehow alienated a great team player in Morris Peterson. His rotations are still inconsistent and he hasn't developed much in terms of strategy. Our play after the ASG is an example of his inability to recognize or adapt to adjustments made by other teams. Trading Fred Jones for Juan Dixon: Undecided You have to give credit to Colangelo for making something out of a player who was not contributing to this team at all. But, Dixon treads on thin line between bringing scoring off the bench and chucking too many shots on offense. In the end, I think his expiring contract will be worth more than his play.
-Fred Jones is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. It was a low risk low reward type scenario. Plus we had a tactical genius behind the bench that was telling a career 41% shooter to keep jacking up the shots, didn't exactly play to his strengths. -You can dismiss Garbo and Parker as easy signings but you're forgetting that they're free to go where ever they want. I doubt people would be clamoring to get on board in Toronto if we had a less credible GM. Colangelo was by far the best name that was on the market. -Charlie V. is great for rebounds and scoring but his defense makes Chris Bosh look like the second coming of Bill Russell.
<div class="quote_poster">AirJordan Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Raptors beat Orlando without 3 key players </div> I didn't post that. One of the moderators moved that post into this thread.
<div class="quote_poster">norespect Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Since I have ripped TJ to shreds in my last thread, here's my attack on Colangelo. I don't believe the crown that Raptors fans have placed on his head is even close to earned. I think his best moves have been no-brainers and his bolder moves have amounted to a pile of trash. First off, he broght over AP and Garbo. AP was a 2 time MVP of the Isreali league, and Garbo won a world championship with spain and shut down Dirk in the process....bold moves, not really. Its not like AP and Garbo were nobody's and were off the radar. Plus, the raps were lacking all kinds of talent so rolling the dice on a couple of guys that other teams might pass up on isn't that brilliant. I like to refer to his signing of Fred Jones as an example of how well he can kick the tires here in the NBA. So what if he tried to get Salmons first, he ain't exactly lighting the world on fire, 8pts and 3rebs while playing 27 mins a game ain't 6th man material. Next, TJ for Charlie...Ok, obviously i'm biased on this one. But even if you are a TJ backer, you'd have to take Charlie's injury into consideration, and the fact that the bucks have had loads of injuries and call this trade somewhat of a wash....rather a coin flip at best. I see Charlie's upside being way better then TJ's. BC also drafted Bargs....this is where he showed his most sack. He went way out on a limb to draft him #1, but right now it looks like the right move...you have to think that the Raps wouldn't have traded Charlie if they didn't take Bargs...wouldn't it have been better to take Brandon Roy right now? Sure Roy plays the 2, but its not like TJ has been the pass first PG that he was cracked up to be when the Raps aquired him. So that could be Roy/Calderone, AP/Mo, Garbo/Charlie/Graham, Bosh/Garbo/Humps, Rasho/Bosh. Looks like a deep team as well, and i'd take Roy's potential over TJ, and Charlie over Bargs. I think people are really forgetting about what Charlie can do just cause he has been bitten by the bug this year..... I think the best thing that BC brought to the raps is his name, and the illusion of credibility. Maybe that will help in the long run, but as for right now, I don't think that he has done enough to be considered as the reason that the raps are playoff bound.</div> The team has gone from the leagues doormat, to one of the tougher teams in the league to beat on their home court, a winning record, a division leader, and a playoff shoe-in. If TJ is so bad, and Colangelo hasn't done a good job, then how are we so improved? Colangelo completely changed the look of this team, and we're VASTLY improved from last season...you don't think BC deserves any credit for this team's improvement? Charlie struggled when healthy. He got demoted off the starting line-up...since when is that a result of injury? For a guy you praise as much as you have, Charlie hasn't shown much improvement this year...even when healthy and given minutes. AP and Garbo were GOOD moves...why are you finding fault in BC's good moves? You're starting to sound as if you're complaining for the sake of it. Parker and Garbo were bold moves in the respect that, signing a guy with no NBA experience, and a guy who's experience in the L was a failure is certainly bold in contrast to signing a pair of established NBA veterans. On a team with no veteran leadership, instead of going after any big name free agents, BC spent less money, and as you said yourself "rolled the dice" on a couple of guys. Both moves have worked out really well...in what world is that grounds to attack someone on? If it's a no brainer to sign a 2 time Euro-league MVP, then by that logic, it would be reasonable to sign a 1 time Euro-league MVP...so why didn't anyone sign AP last year? It was a good move, that has paid off, and you're criticizing BC for it...that makes no sense to me. Roy would have been a good pick, but Bargs was a good pick as well. Since when is drafting an exact science? BC picked a player that has worked out well, and improved every month he's been in the league. It was a pick that worked out for us...and again...you're criticizing him for that. The Fred Jones signing is really his only bad move...but he made up for that in spades by trading him for Dixon...who has contributed so well for us. So his only bad move, turned out to be an asset. You say he only brings the "illusion of credibility" to the franchise...how so? A GM who has won executive of the year, and built a western conference power house, signed an MVP, and who has a history of good draft pics, and an eye for talent, HAS credibility. BC DOES bring credibility because he is established as a successfully GM. You just claim it's an illusion, but then don't back up such a claim with any substance...please explain how there really is no credibility, and it just appears that way? It must suck to claim to be a Raptor "fan" but at the same time only capable of criticism when things are going well. Colangelo is a lock for exec of the year...and when that happens, this thread will only serve to make you look foolish.
Geez, was there ever a time in your life when you were truly happy? Whatever credibility you had after your TJ thread, well you just took a huge dump on it with this thread. Colangelo hasn't been perfect, but even the most cynical person would struggle to hate on him this much.
1. It sounds like you would be happier if we were still a crap team so you would have even more things to complain about. 2. How much of an improvement are you expecting from a team that has won 27 games the previous season? Are you expecting us to be a championship contender? If so, then you have a distorted idea of reality. 3. You really have to get off the Ford for CV trade. He's gone, deal with it. If you think our defense and rebounding is bad now, what do you think it would be like with a frontline of Bosh and CV?? IF CV was playing here, he would have been injured most of the season like he has been in Milwaukee. Where would that have gotten us? 4. Colangelo made a mistake in signing Jones but he admitted it by quickly fixing it and getting a better player for the Raptors and a shorter contract in Dixon. Do you expect him to be perfect or something? Unless you're perfect, then you can criticize. 5. It's funny you make it seem like signing Garbs and Parker was an obvious choice. Have you ever suggested we sign either one of them? I'm sure you would be the first one slamming Colangelo for ever signing them if they struggled this season. I have no doubt about this. There's criticism and then there is just hate.
<div class="quote_poster">Premium Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">The team has gone from the leagues doormat, to one of the tougher teams in the league to beat on their home court, a winning record, a division leader, and a playoff shoe-in. If TJ is so bad, and Colangelo hasn't done a good job, then how are we so improved? Colangelo completely changed the look of this team, and we're VASTLY improved from last season...you don't think BC deserves any credit for this team's improvement? Charlie struggled when healthy. He got demoted off the starting line-up...since when is that a result of injury? For a guy you praise as much as you have, Charlie hasn't shown much improvement this year...even when healthy and given minutes. AP and Garbo were GOOD moves...why are you finding fault in BC's good moves? You're starting to sound as if you're complaining for the sake of it. Parker and Garbo were bold moves in the respect that, signing a guy with no NBA experience, and a guy who's experience in the L was a failure is certainly bold in contrast to signing a pair of established NBA veterans. On a team with no veteran leadership, instead of going after any big name free agents, BC spent less money, and as you said yourself "rolled the dice" on a couple of guys. Both moves have worked out really well...in what world is that grounds to attack someone on? If it's a no brainer to sign a 2 time Euro-league MVP, then by that logic, it would be reasonable to sign a 1 time Euro-league MVP...so why didn't anyone sign AP last year? It was a good move, that has paid off, and you're criticizing BC for it...that makes no sense to me. Roy would have been a good pick, but Bargs was a good pick as well. Since when is drafting an exact science? BC picked a player that has worked out well, and improved every month he's been in the league. It was a pick that worked out for us...and again...you're criticizing him for that. The Fred Jones signing is really his only bad move...but he made up for that in spades by trading him for Dixon...who has contributed so well for us. So his only bad move, turned out to be an asset. You say he only brings the "illusion of credibility" to the franchise...how so? A GM who has won executive of the year, and built a western conference power house, signed an MVP, and who has a history of good draft pics, and an eye for talent, HAS credibility. BC DOES bring credibility because he is established as a successfully GM. You just claim it's an illusion, but then don't back up such a claim with any substance...please explain how there really is no credibility, and it just appears that way? It must suck to claim to be a Raptor "fan" but at the same time only capable of criticism when things are going well. Colangelo is a lock for exec of the year...and when that happens, this thread will only serve to make you look foolish.</div> ^^^Word. I was going to reply to his entire post, but that would've just been a waste of time, he obviously expects us to be a 55 win championship contending team right away.
You'd take Charlie over Bargs? Wow...bold statement, but then again we'll never know who won that Ford/Villa trade because Villas has been injured all year and is done for the season. Ford > Charlie and Ford >>> Charlie in a suit.
This Thread is a waste of time..... absolutely rediculous.. Lets talk bout something else, and stop wasting thread space with a thread of this nature..... PLEASE MOVE ON.
Hahahaha, if you actually read my post you would see that I said that Colangelo dosen't deserve all the credit, or crown, for this teams turn around. Since when did I say that I didn't enjoy the Raptors winning, or the fact that they will probably make the playoffs? I was just trying to spur conversation by stating that while some of his moves have paid off, they seemed to have been incedental, saying that he had no choice but to add talent and roll the dice overseas because not much was available right now. I've been a fan since day one, I'd love to know how many of you guys were raptor fans when Damon was leading the team to about 10 wins with John Sally, Zan Tabak, Oliver Miller, Alvin Robertson and Co. Why this became a personal attack on me i'll never know. To rank the raptors as a power in the East is would be a mistake. My biggest complaint of Colangelo was that he didn't really address what was wrong with the team. Last year the Raps were terrible defenders and couldn't rebound. Same thing this year. Obviously Colangelo has done some good things, but that wasen't the arguement. Again, some of you lost sight in my point. 60 some odd games does not a legacy make. Lets all hang on a sec before we crown him exec of the year. BTW, not all of his drafts have been stellar, look up some of his passes and I'm pretty sure his daddy had something to do with Pheonix's rise to the top. Take a pill boys, I do remember being one shot away from the eastern finals, signing our top boy to monster money, and bringing in "THE DREAM" for the finishing touch. Were you all planning the parade route down yonge street then? Obviously were are much improved, but I think that many things have contributed, not just BC. RE-F*CKEN-LAX BTW, I don't mind if people don't agree, but if you can do it alla premium or chutney, it would be appreciated. I do enjoy stirring the pot, just so we can get some discussion. OR WE CAN JUST LOOK AT POSTS OF NEWSPAPER ARTICLES FROM THE TORONTO SUN EVERYDAY.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting norespect:</div><div class="quote_post">Hahahaha, if you actually read my post you would see that I said that Colangelo dosen't deserve all the credit, or crown, for this teams turn around. </div> Who does then? The rest of your post is too much of a generalization, IMO. Especially where you say that he didn't address the team's weaknesses. The major weakness last season was that we had a shoot-first point guard. Now I know you won't agree with me on TJ Ford, but at the very least you have to acknowledge that our PG rotation is now a strength and Bosh isn't ignored on the offensive end anymore. And we may still be a weak rebounding/defensive team, but we've still improved a hell of a lot from last season (where we basically were the worst defensive team in the league). We have our first legit post defender, since AD (Rasho). We have an even better perimeter defender than Peterson (Parker). And we have player who hustles and has good fundamentals on defense (Garbajosa). Considering he only had a single offseason to work with, I think its worthy of some praise.
<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Who does then? The rest of your post is too much of a generalization, IMO. Especially where you say that he didn't address the team's weaknesses. The major weakness last season was that we had a shoot-first point guard. Now I know you won't agree with me on TJ Ford, but at the very least you have to acknowledge that our PG rotation is now a strength and Bosh isn't ignored on the offensive end anymore. And we may still be a weak rebounding/defensive team, but we've still improved a hell of a lot from last season (where we basically were the worst defensive team in the league). We have our first legit post defender, since AD (Rasho). We have an even better perimeter defender than Peterson (Parker). And we have player who hustles and has good fundamentals on defense (Garbajosa). Considering he only had a single offseason to work with, I think its worthy of some praise.</div> Agreed....to some extent. Its like the question, Did the chicken or the egg come first? Would Colangelo have signed Garbo and Parker if he wasen't in such desperate need for any talent? You can argue yes, but i'd argue no, and I guess we will never know. Man....tell me you watch the games. The raps can't stop anyone, especially when they really need stops. We get owned on the glass almost every night, and a good rebounding team dominates on the offensive glass like no tomorrow. Did you watch the Seattle game? I would agree that the Rasho trade was very good, but that too was a gamble that paid off cause Rasho was rotting on the Spurs bench making 7 mill with a few years left...Not to take away from the move, it works well. Now, I might catch even more heat for this, but I think AP may be a bit over valued by raptor fans. I love the guy, and he would have to be right there for my favorite raptor, but an 11pt|4reb|2ast #2 is a dime a dozen in this league. He is a good defender and a clutch shooter, and I do think he isn't utilized enough. He should be the second option after bosh, but again Sam Mitch has no vision. We do have a rising young team, with bosh and bargs, but alot of our eggs are put into the TJ basket , and personally I don't like it. Yeah Yeah 14 and 14 for Tj last night, but I know for a fact most of you don't have Raptors TV, so don't tell nothin. I saw the game, and I would have to say it was one his better games. I just don't like a shoot first sorta PG, who thinks he is mister clutch at the end of games when we have a bona fide All star not taking last shots. Time will tell if he turns out to be a gem, so its difficult for me to argue with you all after only 60 games. He has been on a bit of a roll, but that dosen't quite erase the whole season. Aside, I like AP and Garbo, but they aren't the youngest guys in the world, so I don't really think they will be the saviours in the long run. They make us a much better team right now, but I believe that if the raptors will really become dominant in the future, it has to come from Bargs and TJ...we know what Bosh can do. So colangelo should be ultimatly graded on those two, barring a major shakeup (never happen) during an off season. I'm a bigger Homer then anyone here. But I don't think the Raptors are just there yet. I do enjoy the playoff race, and I think it was something the city and franchise desperately needed. But i'm also a realist, and living in toronto its somtimes difficult. Are the leafs are gonna win the stanley cup?....no chance. Are the raps gonna make alot of noise in the playoffs?.....nothing would please me more, and making it to the second round would be huge. I'm just saying.....lets not blow this out of proportion...baby steps might have been better. Giant leaps lead to monsterous expectations, and perhaps dissapointment. In closing...I BELIEVE THAT SOME OF BC'S MOVES PAID OFF, BUT IT SEEMS THAT THEY WERE MADE A BIT OUT OF DESPERATION, AND HE SEEMED TO GET A BIT OF DUMB LUCK. I MAY BE WRONG, BUT THATS MY OPINION. I AM A RAPTOR FAN. I DO ENJOY THEM WINNING GAMES. TIME WILL TELL IF TJ IS AS GOOD AS YOU ALL THINK HE WILL BE.
Cautiously optimistic. I can respect that a little more, but I still don't agree that a lot of BC's moves worked because of "dumb luck." That's just impossible for us fans to evaluate. I tend to think that he knew what he was doing with those moves, but they ended up better than he could've hoped for. If that's the case, it may be luck, but Colangelo deserves credit for putting us in that position in the first place. It's the same thing, when a team makes a 2nd round pick and the player turns into a star. Is there a bit of luck involved? Yea, but you still need to give them credit for seeing that talent and giving the player a shot. For this offseason, I think Colangelo deserves a lot of credit for thinking outside of the box. I don't think there's ever been a team that has had money to spend, been faced with a weak free agent class, and decided to look international. Most of the time, they either save the space a year or overpay. I could see BC's strategy as a sort of trendsetter. Before this, team's saw the talent in players like Parker and Garbajosa, but weren't sure how they'd translate to the NBA, and wouldn't take the gamble. This year's Raptors have shown its not as big a gamble as people thought.
Thats the whole thing, I never said I didn't like BC or that I'm not happy how the Raps are doing, I was just saying that I thought BC got too much credit. Of course a raptor fan would have to be optamistc about the future, but I've read many posts that say BC is the man, and the raps are beasts of the east. Its hard to say that 1 offseason makes a great GM, i'm just airing on the side of caution before we crown BC as the king. I do remember when grunwald gave JYD and alvin big contracts, and VC a monster deal, and signed Hakeem. Alot of fans thought that was pushing us over the edge. All it really did was put this team way back and handcuff us with the cap. Am i saying BC is as dumb as grunwald, hell no. Just saying he might not have proved himself as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I know that we haven't seen the postseason in a while, but lets put things in perspective. Alot of teams were on the cusp, and never really made the big time. Portland of the late 90's, Sacramento of the early 00's...and we aren't even that close yet. But obviously one would have to be excited.
<div class="quote_poster">norespect Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Of course a raptor fan would have to be optamistc about the future, but I've read many posts that say BC is the man, and the raps are beasts of the east.</div> Who said we were "beasts of the east"? We're a good team in the Eastern Conference and we may have a chance at getting out of the first round but no one thinks that this team is a championship contender or anything.
