<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">See Christmas day of '06....Kobe stunk in that game, and Wade was fantastic.</div> Its only 1 Game. I guess Jamal Crawford is better than Wade because he scored 52 against him. See the Staples Center game. Kobe outplayed Wade late.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Its only 1 Game. I guess Jamal Crawford is better than Wade because he scored 52 against him. See the Staples Center game. Kobe outplayed Wade late.</div> yeah they both had games where one outplayed the other...but Wade flat out embarrassed Kobe on Christmas day.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">yeah they both had games where one outplayed the other...but Wade flat out embarrassed Kobe on Christmas day.</div> agreed
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">See Christmas day of '06....Kobe stunk in that game, and Wade was fantastic.</div> Kobe didn't even play normal on the offensive end and Wade WASN'T guarding him. He just stunk in general but you assume it was because of Wade, this is false. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> not true, the Lakers lost a lot when Odom and Walton were out, earlier this year when Kobe wasn't going off the Lakers were doing fine...Kobe doesn't have to score 50 for the Lakers to win if they're healthy, it's been proven this year.</div> Wade hasn't won much this year either. Aside from Shaq his teammates are quite talented, that's been proven Do you watch Laker games anymore? We can't defend anyone and Kobe has to score. If he wasn't on the roster, we'd lose the way we lost to the Knicks.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, and look who Wade has as teammates, and look who Kobe has. You say Kobe can't continue to score 40 or 50 points or we'll never win against the top teams. You're right. Because the Lakers flat out suck. If Kobe doesn't score 40 or 50 points, then we lose. Wade can defer to his teammates, Kobe can't, because his teammates suck. Put Wade in Kobe's situation, Wade will have to score 40 or 50 points a night for the Lakers to win as well. Bottom line is, if Kobe doesn't have a big scoring night, we lose. It's been proven time and time again this season. There's not much to argue about. If you actually surround Kobe with talent, he won't have to score 40 or 50 a night to win</div> I don't agree with this at all. Wade this season without Shaq had a 17-14 or 17-13, can't remember record. The second best player on the team through that time was I'd say Udonis Haslem who did well, and then there was Kapono and Alonzo. Wade had 2 40 point games the whole time Shaq was out, so clearly he wouldn't have to score 40 points for the team to win, unless you have some argument that the Heat team without Shaq was much more talented than the Lakers. Also, neither did Kobe have to score so much for the team to win till recently. Wade and Kobe are different players though, Wade can affect games on a more regular basis with passing and creating than Kobe can, while still being a good scorer. Kobe is more explosive in the scoring department by far, but Wade gives more consistency obviously. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade hasn't won much this year either. Aside from Shaq his teammates are quite talented, that's been proven Do you watch Laker games anymore? We can't defend anyone and Kobe has to score. If he wasn't on the roster, we'd lose the way we lost to the Knicks.</div> I think as people who watch other teams in the league, and likely play basketball too, we'd know there's more to it than that. Of course the team can win without Kobe scoring so much, but they aren't doing it. And it's a double edged sword, Kobe wins them games when he scores 50, but he also losses them games when he's jacking up terrible shots and looking for no one throughout some games. It's never good to take 34 shots and only score 29 points, or to need 44 shots to score 50 points. That's not an impressive 50 points, that's just a night of jacking. I see too much of it being about mentality on that team, really. Kobe is good, so you're not really going to try and say anything against him, but the team's problem is not all our guys suck and aren't aggressive or all our guys don't play defense.
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I don't agree with this at all. Wade this season without Shaq had a 17-14 or 17-13, can't remember record. The second best player on the team through that time was I'd say Udonis Haslem who did well, and then there was Kapono and Alonzo. Wade had 2 40 point games the whole time Shaq was out, so clearly he wouldn't have to score 40 points for the team to win, unless you have some argument that the Heat team without Shaq was much more talented than the Lakers. Also, neither did Kobe have to score so much for the team to win till recently. Wade and Kobe are different players though, Wade can affect games on a more regular basis with passing and creating than Kobe can, while still being a good scorer. Kobe is more explosive in the scoring department by far, but Wade gives more consistency obviously.</div> I believe Wade is about .500 without Shaq. That's not that great; and he does play in the East. The Lakers have been on a downward spiral and their defensive efficiency shows that. Kobe has to score more this latter half of the season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I think as people who watch other teams in the league, and likely play basketball too, we'd know there's more to it than that. Of course the team can win without Kobe scoring so much, but they aren't doing it. And it's a double edged sword, Kobe wins them games when he scores 50, but he also losses them games when he's jacking up terrible shots and looking for no one throughout some games. It's never good to take 34 shots and only score 29 points, or to need 44 shots to score 50 points. That's not an impressive 50 points, that's just a night of jacking.</div> He's still just as efficient as Wade though. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I see too much of it being about mentality on that team, really. Kobe is good, so you're not really going to try and say anything against him, but the team's problem is not all our guys suck and aren't aggressive or all our guys don't play defense.</div> I don't think Wade is more "consistent", his game is different though. BTW, I don't judge Wade just by how much he has lost this year, but DREAM makes hypocritical statements that can apply to Wade.
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He's over .500, because he missed 8 games while Shaq was out, and the team was 1-7 in that time.</div> He's a bit over 500 just like Kobe. Though the West has five #1 seeds.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe didn't even play normal on the offensive end and Wade WASN'T guarding him. He just stunk in general but you assume it was because of Wade, this is false. </div> yeah but Wade outplayed him...
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">yeah but Wade outplayed him...</div> He wouldn't have severely outplayed him had Kobe put up his normal numbers. Kobe was off, but that credit doesn't go to Wade. Wright, Posey, Payton, etc. did that. But onto the next point... So? That wasn't a playoff series.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">but DREAM makes hypocritical statements that can apply to Wade. </div> hypocritical???...I said that Kobe a. takes a lot of bad shots b. doesn't know when to turn it on and off c. doesn't have to score 50 each game for the lakers to win what's so wrong about that assessment??? (others agree with me also)
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">hypocritical???...I said that Kobe </div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> a. takes a lot of bad shots</div> 58-59% is more than good enough though. He's a scorer and a better shooter than Wade. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> b. doesn't know when to turn it on and off </div> Wade didn't pass the ball in the Finals. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> c. doesn't have to score 50 each game for the lakers to win what's so wrong about that assessment??? (others agree with me also)</div> You said you weren't impressed by Games 1-6 in the PHX series; you fail to mention WHY Kobe got 50 in Game Six; and Wade did "Hog" the ball in the Finals. Hogging isn't so bad sometimes though, but you keep criticizing Kobe for Hogging or not being balanced. You also said the Lakers had been winning without Kobe, that's ridiculous because if you had watched the Lakers play in the other 3 games without Kobe, they lost them. They are 2-3 without Kobe and Wade has Underachieved (by your standards) this season.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He's a bit over 500 just like Kobe. Though the West has five #1 seeds.</div> Yes, I checked again, he's 17-14 (.548) a pace that for a whole season would be 45 wins. Can't say that's bad, and 18 of the 31 games (58%) were against the West, and 8 of the 18 against currently over .500 Western teams, so actually for a whole season he would have more games against Eastern Conference teams, which could make that improve if you want to make that argument. Also if I'm not mistaken, you play your conference more towards the end of the year, and the difference in conference in terms of a teams record is usually not a factor till after 60-65 games have been played (March and April is where you're actually playing more games against same conference teams).
<div class="quote_poster">og15 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, I checked again, he's 17-14 (.548) a pace that for a whole season would be 45 wins. Can't say that's bad, and 18 of the 31 games (58%) were against the West, so actually for a whole season he would have more games against Eastern Conference teams, which could make that improve if you want to make that argument. Also if I'm not mistaken, you play your conference more towards the end of the year, and the difference in conference in terms of a teams record is usually not a factor till after 60-65 games have been played (March and April is where you're actually playing more games against same conference teams).</div> 17-14 without Shaq? Let's say you were right, what does that matter though? Kobe and Wade win about as many games as each other. I only brought that up because Dream isn't bothering Wade about his team losing.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">58-59% is more than good enough though. He's a scorer and a better shooter than Wade. </div> BUT the fact is that he still takes a lot of bad shots <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade didn't pass the ball in the Finals.</div> But turning it on and off doesn't neccessarily mean "passing" the ball, it just means knowing when to "turn it on" and when to "turn it off"...and Wades assist numbers have been excellent this year. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You said you weren't impressed by Games 1-6 in the PHX series; you fail to mention WHY Kobe got 50 in Game Six; and Wade did "Hog" the ball in the Finals. </div> No I wasn't impressed by game 1-7 because throughout the series Kobe seemed as if he didn't know when to turn it on and off....I remember during a couple of games where the commentators even questioned why Kobe completely took himself out of the game, and I sat there and watched and was thinking the same thing....Steve Kerr, Tex Winter, etc. ALL have said the same thing that I'm trying to point out. There's a certain time when it's okay to "hog" the ball and other times it's not such a good idea. There's a certain time to be passive and there are other times were it isn't okay. Tex Winter stated in article earlier this year (props to ever finds it) that Kobes biggest problem is that he doesn't let the game come to him, instead he makes his mind up on what he's going to do.....that's not a good thing. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Hogging isn't so bad sometimes though, but you keep criticizing Kobe for not being balanced or some ridiculous notion like that.</div> I'm not the only one who's criticized him for it, so it can't be that "ridiculous"
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I only brought that up because Dream isn't bothering Wade about his team losing. </div> well going by og15's stats they were doing fine for a team with no starting PG, Center....Wade had to bring the ball up the floor, score, create for others, etc. for the majority of that time with a supporting cast of Walker, Haslem, Posey, Payton, Kapono, Zo, etc. and 3 or 4 of those players were in a severe funk during that time (hints the trade rumours for Walker and Posey)
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">17-14 without Shaq? Let's say you were right, what does that matter though? Kobe and Wade win about as many games as each other. I only brought that up because Dream isn't bothering Wade about his team losing.</div> I'm not agreeing with his argument. I was just pointing out that Wade was actually winning at a fairly good rate in the absence of Shaq. Also considering that the absence of Shaq had Jason Williams playing injured/out for a about 8 games, Posey on/off, and out for 10 games, and no Eddie Jones. The problem is that most reports of "without" Shaq show the whole team without Shaq, and add the 1-7 without Wade AND Shaq, which would make them 18-21 without Shaq, but actually 17-14 with Wade and no Shaq.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">BUT the fact is that he still takes a lot of bad shots </div> If Kobe's the best scorer in the League, what exactly is a bad shot for him? I really don't care because the FACT is that his efficiency speaks for itself. He's so great because he makes horrible shots, not because he averages 7 APG. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> But turning it on and off doesn't neccessarily mean "passing" the ball, it just means knowing when to "turn it on" and when to "turn it off"...and Wades assist numbers have been excellent this year.</div> Well why doesn't Kobe know how to turn it on or off? You have a case for game SEVEN maybe, but in the PHX series he was doing great in general so your criticism is "ridiculous". <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> No I wasn't impressed by game 1-7 because throughout the series Kobe seemed as if he didn't know when to turn it on and off....</div> I said Games 1-6. And what the hell does this mean? His team was winning games. He scored 50 because Kwame Brown let the game go into over time and Kobe made 2-3 Three pointers and got some garbage points in the end when the PHX lead was too large. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I remember during a couple of games where the commentators even questioned why Kobe completely took himself out of the game, and I sat there and watched and was thinking the same thing....Steve Kerr, Tex Winter, etc. ALL have said the same thing that I'm trying to point out.</div> That's one game. Game Seven, which I wouldn't completely judge his entire career upon. The fact is that Phil was ok with the Gameplan as well, but even if he wasn't I don't care; the game was over. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> There's a certain time when it's okay to "hog" the ball and other times it's not such a good idea. There's a certain time to be passive and the there are other times were it isn't okay. Tex Winter stated in article earlier this year (props to ever finds it) that Kobes biggest problem is that he doesn't let the game come to him, instead he makes his mind up on what he's going to do.....that's not a good thing.</div> Tex Winter also said Kobe is just under Jordan, like me. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'm not the only one who's criticized him for it, so it can't be that "ridiculous"</div> Criticizing games 1-6 was not intelligent though; neither was realizing that OT let Kobe get to 50; not him jacking up a bunch of shots. All you've got on Kobe is a game Seven, and you never mentioned how much Wade has under-performed this year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's one game. Game Seven, which I wouldn't completely judge his entire career upon. The fact is that Phil was ok with the Gameplan as well, but even if he wasn't I don't care; the game was over. </div> no game 1 and 3 also....I have a good memory.... Oh well I'll let you'll continue to think that the mans game has no flaws even though there are people who agree with my criticisms....."heres to another first round exit for Kobe"
